I can understand why there might be an age limit. Its because they, referring to you and the moderation throughout most of the letter, don't want the stereotypical teenager, under 18, to muck it up. They don't want immature members. But since when is everyone over 18 mature and everyone below immature?
I see the logic, I do. And I would join the Young Writers Forum. I don't for two reasons:
1) Its been abolished. 2) I'm more serious about writing than that. I'd dedicate my whole life to it, if I knew that I'd be succesful.
I'm just saying that the age limit is unfair, but life is unfair too. I'm not suggesting that anything be changed. I'm just saying, why can't there be some sort of entry test for members under 18? You could have some sort of survey and have the person submit a sample of their work. And, if both the sample and survey check out, you could let them join.
This would eliminate the need for a strict age limit, and it would still keep out the people who are being kept out initially. I know it would mean more work for the moderator, but I think that it could concievably be done.
I guess the real reason I'm saying all of this is because I'm disappointed that I can't join the Forum. I think its important for a potential writer to be in an enviroment for other potential writers to critique work. To lend a helping hand. That is what the Writers Workshop is. But some people, being me and others of my generation, are being left out.
I doubt that anything will change, but I just wanted to express my opinion on the matter.
Your Friendly Neighborhood.......oh...wait, SteveRogers
P.S. This may end up sounding disrespectful towards Mr. Card and the moderation of this site, and the forums, but I intended no such disrespect. I hope that this can just be seen as an expressed opinion. Because that is all that is really is. Thank you, in advance. Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Speaking as an over-18 member of the Writers Workshops, there are multiple reasons to make a break between under-and-over-age members.
1. As a rule, youth are less mature than adults. While I know there are exceptions to that, most youth think they ARE mature and want exceptions made in their case.
2. There is a freedom in adults being able to talk as adults, without censoring their writing or conversations due to young ears being present. A lot of the members have teens of their own and come to the workshop partially as an avenue to be away from that environment. Note: there is nothing wrong with having communities composed of both adults and under-age youth, but the Writers Workshop just happens to have a different structure.
3. Speaking as a person who helps moderate from time to time, I have definitely noticed a large upswing in problems since the under 18 forum closed. Which means that most of the teens who lied about their age to join the WW are still very easy to spot, and make extra work already. Your suggestion to create a TON more work for the moderators, in my opinion, would not solve that problem.
I distinctly remember how it felt to be excluded from adult communities when I was under-age. I felt like I belonged and exceptions should be made for me. But that isn't the way the world works. When you've been an adult long enough, you will appreciate the fact that there are resources and places available to adults only.
In the meantime, why not find some like-minded youth and form your own group? I don't know the info off the top of my head, but there have already been a couple of people who have done that. So far, the hosts of the site have been gracious enough to allow those folks to post on Hatrack so people like you can find a new community. Perhaps someone will be able to provide a couple links.
And don't worry, this too shall pass.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I guess I should thank you. Even though you are being somewhat stereotypical as well.
And, if you'll notice, I wasn't suggesting any changes. I was simply stating my idea. Expressing my opinion, as I also stated.
I'd also like to state:
quote: I distinctly remember how it felt to be excluded from adult communities when I was under-age. I felt like I belonged and exceptions should be made for me. But that isn't the way the world works. When you've been an adult long enough, you will appreciate the fact that there are resources and places available to adults only.
Most adults heard this sort of thing when they were younger. And most of them probably seethed in anger because of it. Its that whole, adults-don't-remember-what-it-was-like-to-be-a-kid-and-have-everyone-look-down-on-them arguement.
Either way, your information was useful and I'd like to thank you for providing me with an answer of sorts.
P.S. This message could also probably be misinterpreted as angry and rude. I'd like to point out once again that this was not the intention.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Thanks Anne for your comments. I want to add one more -- the main reason we shut down the Young Writer's Forum was that we made a promise to parents that it would be a "safe" environment for their children. That only things appropriate for young people would be discussed. We could not enfore that promise -- so we shut it down. The Writers Forum was always intended for adults -- but we had to reinforce that once the Young WRiters became impossible.
Scott always tells people in writers groups, that no group helps them for more than a year. And usually less time. YOu get more benefit from reading other people's bad writing than you do from their critic of your writing. I'm sure you can find plenty of bad writing to read on your own And the best training for any writer is to just keep on writing. Writing 1000 pages is better training than anything else you could ever do.
Posts: 780 | Registered: Jul 1999
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posted
Ummm.....I'm having problems putting my reply into words. I guess thanking you would be a good start, and I suppose that I should let you know that I feel you're right. Something like that should do the trick.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Hi Steve. I appreciate your honest curiosity about the Writer's forum age limit, and your attempt to find some answers--not only about the Forum itself, but about how to improve your skills as a writer.
You are free to lurk there, and to learn from the ongoing threads and dialog about writing. You should be able to use the search feature to pull up a myriad of topics. In short, you CAN learn from the Writer's Forum.
The "over 18" rule is in place for some good reasons that have already been stated here. Lack of technical skill, lack of maturity, and lack of life experience all combine to make it difficult and time consuming for adults to critique the work of a younger writer. Those of us on the writer's forum ended up spending a disproportionate amount of our time trying to help young writers and to bring some order back to the forum, and our own writing suffered as a result. Everyone wants to be working with people who are at least at an equal or higher skill level, so they can learn and grow. Adults are no exception to this desire. So it's not been very productive -- or educational -- for us to spend time arguing with kids under age 18 that spelling and grammar really DO matter, or trying to help them write stories from an adult point of view when they've not yet lived as adults and don't know how that feels or what would logically motivate a character that age.
I know it's hard to feel excluded. Maybe you are the exception: mature, have mastered basic skills, eager to learn, and most importantly, filled with a burning desire to write. If that is the case, then nothing will stop you.
The Hatrack Writers Forum is only one avenue for you to improve your skills. As I said, you can still lurk there. There are other writers forums. There are tons of magazines and articles and books to read on skill building. OSC is one of the better teachers in this regard, and reading his books on the topic of writing will help you a great deal. Consider this period of your life "research". Then, once you hit that magical age of 18, you'll be able to take your place as a peer, with all the mechanical skills you need and a grasp of the inner structure of good storywriting.
I wish I had of had your dedication at your age. If I had, I might be published by now. You will go far if you apply your current level of desire to reading as much as you possibly can about the craft of storytelling and writing, and most of all, write, write, write. Practice may not make perfect, but it DOES make you publishable.
Good luck! Elan
Posts: 4 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
The reasons for the policy have been well stated already, but let me add the biggest one. Younger writers haven't actually had a life yet. With very, very rare exceptions, they reveal this in everything they write. they just don't know how the world works. they try to write a marriage, and they don't know how married people talk to each other. They try to write about politics and haven't a clue how it's really done.
there are, of course, writers above 18 who are just as naive. But the proportions shift radically as writers pass from their late teens into their twenties.
You keep accusing people of thinking in "stereotypes," but of course it is hardly "stereotyping" to notice things like: Young people tend to be shorter; young people tend to know less; young people tend to dress differently and listen to different music.
I mean, duh. Do any of these generalizations apply equally to everyone? Of course not. Is 18 an arbitrary age? Absolutely. Some writers could handle an adult writing workshop at 15. Some aren't ready at 30. But 18 is a socially acceptable age in the society at large for determining where "adulthood" begins.
Another reason is that younger writers tend to be more vulnerable. You have to be gentler with them. That's one of the reasons we closed down the Young Writers area - young writers were being brutal with each other, because younger people tend to have less compassion and less self-restraint, while at the same time having less ability to deal with criticism without taking it personally.
These are also "stereotypes" to you - but simply provable, observable facts to anybody who has watched young people - young WRITERS - in action, as I have, for many years. Again, there are exceptions - kind young writers; tough young writers. But they are rare, compared to the same virtues in older writers.
And when it comes to older writers who are brutal, we boot THEM out too, on a one-at-a-time basis, just as I shut them down in my in-person workshops. And if an adult writers shows that he or she is too sensitive and is deeply wounded by any criticism, other members of a workshop stop being candid with them and soften everything until their "criticism" is useless - so the vulnerable writer might remain, but gets no useful criticism because he/she can't take it.
Which means that the real workshop experience is not available to adults who act like children; the only persecuted group is younger writers who would be able to deal with the situation like adults.
But, you see, one of the markers of those younger writers is that they suck it up - that's what adults do - and don't complain that it isn't fair to exclude them. they also make sure they know what stereotyping MEANS before accusing others of doing it. If they're determined to get in, they simply lie about their age and then make sure they don't do or say anything to reveal their youth. If they're caught, it's because they weren't as adult as they thought, and they deserve to get booted.
If, however, they are both mature AND so scrupulously honest that they will not lie about their age, then here's the ultimate answer to all your objections: You don't need writers workshops. You just need to write. So instead of worrying about a club you aren't invited to join, why not spend your time writing your brains out and getting published? Then you can wave your check in our faces and say "nanner nanner" because you proved you didn't NEED our silly workshop after all, ha ha. Guess what? Even MATURE adults have THOSE feelings <grin>.
posted
That made my day. Luck, sort of, has been wished upon me by my favorite author ever. This is one of those moments for the girly squeal.
On another note, I actually have been doing a lot of writing. I've even already submitted a story for publication. Whether or not it'll get published is unknown to me. But I'm trying, writing, and taking risks. What more can one do in life if they wish to write?
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
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And the best training for any writer is to just keep on writing. Writing 1000 pages is better training than anything else you could ever do.
