posted
All the Card readers with whom I have discussed the Ender quartet have been of the same opinion (myself included). That is, Ender's Game was a great book but the last three were disappointing.
Personally, I though Speaker was slow , and children a bit too far fetched , but I hated Xenocide . It is probably my least favorite book that I actuatly finished. (Well that would only be half truth. I could never get more than a page or two into the utterly forgettable and slumber inducing chapters about the obsesive-compulsive society, so I usually skipped to the next chapter to get on with the real story.)
By the end of the story I didn't care about any of the characters except for Jane. Even Ender became dull.
Is there anybody out there who throughly enjoyed the final three books, in particular Xenocide? If so, please explain to me why cuz I am at a loss. Posts: 157 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Before I began my career at the university level in Philosophy, I didn't care much for the Speaker set, but now I find them to be the more engaging quartet (over the Shadow series), at least on the intellectual level.
The ideas present (aiuas, the Outside, speaking in genetic codes, etc.) are novel and challenge the reader to conceive of things in more than their traditional way, hence hesitance on some readers' part to finish/read the novels.
Give it a few years, and see whether your view of the books has changed at all.
Posts: 57 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I don't quite understand why you would post this on Mr. Card's website when he is actively involved on the site. It's not very nice. Why did you keep reading them all if they were so head-crashingly boring to you? As it happens, I found Xenocide fascinating, especially the parts that you describe as forgettable, but I won't waste my time explaining why. That's why I finished it and went on to Children of the Mind. When I don't like a book, I put it down. I don't go insulting the author on his or her website.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I think Speaker is the best Ender/Ender-inspired book written. I agree that Xenocide was much the disappointment (except for one section where Val visit's Olhado's family), and CotM is a bit better, though mostly because it was a fairwell to a friend.
posted
No insult to OSC has been intended. I have very much enjoyed most of his works. Most SF readers I know who have read Card have expressed similar dissapointment in these three novels after reading Ender's Game.
And perhaps it is merely a matter of sequel syndrome. Because the first novel was so well liked on many levels, you would need to have a Damn Fine Novel as a sequel in order to meet the expetations. Since the Speaker books were only average for his ability (which is still better than most authors), then perhaps that is why it seemed such a let down.
Perhaps after a few years I'll read them separatly from Ender and see if my opinion improves.
Posts: 157 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I found the "aiua" too far fetched and removed from reality. I read fantasy expecting things to be unrealistic. I read SF expecting things to be a somewhat logical outgrowth of current scientific understandings. Ender's Game the series had met my SF expectations woderfully, until the auia. Reading about that was such a shock it forced me out of the story; I could no longer engross myself in the characters and storyline.
The rest of the book(s) were wonderful. I just felt cheated by the aiua, and that ruined the rest of the Speaker series for me.
Posts: 48 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
OSC's been hammered far worse than this, even in just the short time I've been here. And there's nothing wrong by saying you didn't like a book, even when you're saying it on the author's forum. It just means it didn't speak to you. That you liked one book more than another, especially by the same author, is just as much a reflection on you as on him.
Ender's Game should really be bundled with the Shadow quartet, and Speaker should start a new trilogy. Those three are totally different types of books than the previous five (previous in a chronological sense - when the stories take place, that is).
They are filled with long moralistic speeches and weighty ideas. It's no coincidence that younger readers dislike the Speaker books and older readers love them. It has to do with maturity as a reader. I think Speaker for the Dead is the best thing OSC's ever written, even though EG is one of my all-time favorite books. In fact, in the foreword to it OSC says that EG was written just to set up the characters and worlds so he could tell the story of Speaker for the Dead.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Hatrack doesn't exist to serve Card's ego. At least, that's not why I'm here. Criticism, as long as it is polite, has as much a place in these discussions as praise.
Personally, I love Speaker for the Dead and Xenocide. SftD is an amazing character study. I care about Ender, Novinha and her family, Pipo and Libo, even Marcao. Xenocide is great because of all the philosophical discussions and the topics that are covered. Children of the MInd is good, but not great. It seems to be more of a cap on the previous books than a story unto itself.
Maybe I'll elaborate more when I don't have a paper to write. Posts: 2149 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Well, I think that anyone who didn't like the Speaker books will find himself in the minority here . Personally, I think that Xenocide is the 3rd best book in the Ender/Bean saga. In fact, I think that it was Xenocide that converted me from a casual Ender fan to a die-hard fanatic! Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow will always be my favourites though. Speaker and Children are both excellent as well. They may be slower than EG and the Shadow books, but the fact that they make me think a lot more makes them better in my opinion.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Sorry if I was inappropriately heavy-handed. But I can see debating and disagreeing with ideas in an essay a lot more than picking apart a book on the author's own website. And I guess I've read OSC's request (i.e. "what to expect at a book-signing") not to tell him why you hated his books--I seem to recall he said "What am I supposed to do about it now?" Anyway, I guess asking other readers what they thought is somewhat different than saying it to his face, but it still rankles a bit--I feel like we are guests here and should be considerate, especially on this side of the forum where he's often visibly involved.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
It's one thing to say, "I hate him and everything he stands for - he's a talentless hack."
It's quite another to say, "You're one of my favorite authors, but I really didn't like this book."
One is a character assassination, and one is a matter of personal preference. Everyone has favorites. And if you have a favorite, then by definition every other work is less of a favorite. You can't help that. I personally think it's in bad taste to start a thread asking people to explain why a book is good, but there's no punishment for bad taste. And even if there was, I don't think I should be in charge of deciding what is and isn't bad taste.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I read the Ender "Quartet" for my first time right before Ender's Shadow came out and I was in about 9th grade. I loved them, including Xenocide, and especially Speaker for the Dead.
The reason that I loved Speaker for the Dead is because it's the logical continuation of the character of Ender. He was destroyed under the weight of almost completely murdering another species of alien, and this is long before everyone in the universe hated him for doing it. The Speaker trilogy, if you wanna call it that, is his attempt to redeem his past. I love the character of Ender and how he did his best to heal everyone around him post-Ender's Game... it's very fitting for the character to want to do that after having caused destruction on a galactic scale.
One thing that I found hard to swallow on my first couple readings of Xenocide was the story of Qing-Jao, because it seemed very out of place with the rest of the storyline. It began to make more sense to me when it finally dawned on me that it's out of place because it's the story of someone so completely alien to humanity that they can morally justify the destruction of a foreign species... even when there are alternatives to it.
Posts: 50 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Just so I can defend the rationale for this post, the intent was to get others opinions on why they liked the books. As I stated, I have heard many reasons why people disliked or were indifferent to the Speaker books, from both young and "mature" readers, so I was looking for some alternate POV's.
I do remember reading that Card expanded Ender's Game into a novel so he could eventually write Speaker. I also kinda recall that originally it was supposed to be a trilogy, but got expanded to a quartet on accident. Again, maybe that is why I found Xenocide such a tedious read, that is was half a novel stretched out with the.
Come to think about it, I had a similar reaction with Seventh Son. I liked 7th Son, but found Red Prophet only OK. I didn't like the shift in character focus and I thought the text was too long for the story.
However, with the Shadow series, bean has stayed the focus and I can maintain the connection to the character. Also, all events seem relevant to the flow and drama of the story (in fact, didn't card lenghten the series by 1 book because he thought his first draft wraped things up to quickly and easily?)
Anyhow, I'm rambling at this point and have made some interesting self discoveries about my own literery preferences. They are:
1) I prefer books where the story is told from a single character's perspective
2) I prefer books whose title doesn't start with the letter X.
posted
I'm 15, and my favorite Card book is Speaker. I highly prefer the Ender Quartet to the Shadow sequence, because they make me think rather than be carried along in a continuous flow of action and war.
Posts: 973 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Speaker For the Dead is my favorite Ender book. Its just an amazing novel, imo. I really want to buy this book one of these days so that I can read it over and over. I liked it that much. Just a great book!
Xenocide was really good too. I like Speaker the best, but Xenocide was very well written and defintly my second fav Ender book.
As for Children of the Mind, I was disappointed with what happened to Ender, but there are parts of the book that I like. Possibly my least favorite. Not sure. I'm not a big fan of Ender's Game either (I'm one of the few OSC fans that thinks Ender's Game is ok, though I admit I do think the ending is very cool, and likes Speaker and Xenocide more. I even like the Shadow series more then Ender's Game).
I also like the Shadow series alot. I think, overall, the Shadow series is the best, because from beginning to end the books are all really good, imo (Shadow of the Giant was just amazing in fact. I think Ender's Shadow and Shadow of the Giant are the best, but I like the other two books alot too).
Though, if I had to pick one Ender or Shadow book I liked the most, it would be Speaker For the Dead!
DF2506 " I really need to get the book soon. I'd like to read it again! "
Posts: 128 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I will be the one goof who will say: in the last 20 months, I've bought every single one of Card's books, and all available audiobooks (what a doof!) I had read some of his works years ago, when I was in High School, but really, hadn't read much but Ender's Game... and had, through a few strange experience in my own life, basically forgotten it entirely (which made re-reading it feel like a first time experience, so that's good). I was inspired to read it again about two years ago after a local fight over whether or not it was appropriate reading for HS Juniors..
Anyway, since then, I've went through all the series.. and sought out the others as I could lay my hands on them.
Of all of the books in the EG/ES series, Speaker of the Dead is the most meaningful, in my opinion. It has the strongest through line story, the most richly developed characters, and the most complex implications on the characters. I always ask myself something when I watch a film/play or read a book: what change occurred to the characters? In so many books, the characters play out exactly to form and there is no noticable change on them by the things that occur.. while all of Card's books do a good job at allowing for character change, Speaker for the Dead provides really unique insights as to the way changes impact not only the characters, but other characters around them.
I hate to say this, and it is no offense to OSC, but out of all his works, all his series, Speaker of the Dead comes across to me as the most meaningful; it seems to speak much more about not only the characters but the writer. I enjoyed that a great deal about the book.
I found Xenocide to be good; while not quite as good as SotD, it was a good look at family dynamics who start with different points of reference. There were some moments in Xenocide I thought "caught fire" .. in Xenocide, when Greggo gives the speech about "when we are alone, I refer to him as father, and he calls me son..." may be one of the best exchanges for dramatic effect..
Children of the Mind is one I occassionally love, occassionally really dislike. There are elements about Children of the Mind that I find very interesting and well-played. But there are other moments where I think it lapses into too many hints & winks at the writers own past works (Peter/Ender saying "think of the missile as down"; Wong Mu telling Peter about the death of Bonzo Madrid..) the reason why I didn't like so many of those references is because they etched in stone how well known those characters were, all of the facts of their life, even 3000 years later.. which made the fact that Valentine kept her secret identity secret for so long less and less plausible. The hints and winks also occassionally tore from the dramatic tension of the moment and seemingly "reset" the characters which I didn't care for.
I think the part of Children of the Mind that I found most interesting was the Pacifica culture that somehow "knew" what was going on; their references to Jane as a "god" which made for a very interesting Christ parrellel when the god became flesh (in Val/Jane) as a savior for a people.. and her visiting the trees and living within them a unique opposition to Warmaker's assumption of the Descolada as the "Holy Ghost" whereas instead, Jane fulfilled that role by living amonst them, in them, without enforcing change on them and bringing them new life (fruit of the tree). I thought this notion of Jane as a "Holy Trinity" was both interesting and very well played.
But some of the dialog was just jarring and bordered on over-the-top comedy (Miro moments). The assertion near the end, as Val/Jane tries to sympathize that "he molested me" was such a gut check moment that to have it so quickly retracted just made you want to lay the character out and write her off as dead.
CoTM was a potentially great book that just needed slightly different editing (IMHO, sorry OSC!).
In contrast, when I went through the ES series, I read all of the books first (Shadow of the Hegemon, Shadow Puppets, Shadow of the Giant) before "Ender's Shadow"; and admittedly, out of that I found "Ender's Shadow" to be the most dramatically dissapointing of the set. While the later books clearly lay out Bean's loyalty and affection, ES plays such short notice to them, providing no real emotional weight behind his relationship to characters like Poke, and minimizing his appreciation of Ender, that it makes some of the work in the later books have less impact, as I perceived it from a reader. His devotion to Poke seemed touching and moving as I read the rest of the series, but when I finally read ES, I said to myself "what?" Because I could not figure how the character would have such devotion for someone he did not seemingly respect and seldom interacted with in the first place.
I will say this: as far as dramatic form, I am a firm believer that Speaker of the Dead would make for a much better platform as a "film" then EG, because it provides more dramatic change the audience can relate to. Which is why, in general, I dislike the idea of turning great SciFi books into films.. it rarely works.
Though, I did joke with people when Peter asserted Jane/Val should live together unless she & Peter could raise super kids: "Behold! Muad'Dib"
posted
I think it all depends on what you look for in the book. If I had to make a guess the same people who like Ender's Game, but not Speaker, Xenocide, and Children of the Mind probably like Seventh Son and Red Prophet but not the the following books. Why? Because the first book(s) in each case have a lot more action and adventure element to them. Those that read solely for those aspects will not enjoy the later books.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
You are correct; sorry, I shouldn't post late at night.. *laugh* but that moment was one of the best in any of the series (IMHO).
Posts: 202 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I'm wondering how many people who liked the last three books of the Ender Quartet also liked (or have read) Hart's Hope. For some reason it kind of goes into the same philisophical package as those four even though the context is entirely different.
posted
I did in fact enjoy Hart's Hope as well, and again, I see why people would be turned off by it.
Most certainly, in 100 years when people are writing on Card, it will be recognizably "Early Card" but that is more of an attitudinal shift than anything else.
Great book, wholly recommended. (Tempted to say I'd loan out my copy, provided the loanee paid postage...)
Posts: 57 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Speaker for the Dead at first was hard for me to read, I was genuinely bored. I found the style to be difficult, names hard to pronounce, etc. But after I adjusted to the initial strangeness of the environment I became VERY interested in speaker for the dead.
I have a friend that I have turned into an endernatic (yes I just made up that word) she LOVES enders game, and the shadow series, but speaker and its successors though she read them, did not do the same for her. I was pleasently suprised when Xenocide incorporated Chinese characters and their culture within the story. I grew up in China (though I am American) and those characters indeared me to the books IMMENSILY, Mr. Card wrote VERY honest chinese characters. He took their virtues and flaws and showed them to us, and I have to say he was right on about them. I dont know what he did to understand Chinese culture but it took him less time than it did me.
In conclusion, I LOVE the speaker trilogy but its a MUCH different like then what the shadow series is to me. I am VERY excited to see how Mr. Card is going to bring the two sagas together.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
On criticism of authors: Either they care what you think, and you risk hurting their feelings, or they don't care what you think, and you're wasting their time and yours. I don't know why anyone would bother. Some people feel a compulsion to exercise their extensive First Amendment Rights for no better reason than because they're there.
OSC is one of the very few authors out there about whom I can honestly say is always TELLING A STORY rather than SELLING A BOOK.
I think he is probably more sensitive to criticism because of this. Despite his wildly successful career, I really think he still cares what every single reader thinks about every single book--as a human being, not just a paying customer.
I've never met Stephen King or J.K. Rowling or Sue Grafton or Ann Coulter, but I'll bet none of them ever go on the web and mingle with their fans, except to sell stuff and promote themselves. You'll never hurt Ann Coulter's feelings because she doesn't care what you think unless you agree with her. OSC does. I wouldn't want to destroy that.
Posts: 3 | Registered: Sep 2005
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![[Sleep]](graemlins/sleep.gif)
, and children a bit too far fetched ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
, but I hated Xenocide ![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
. It is probably my least favorite book that I actuatly finished. (Well that would only be half truth. I could never get more than a page or two into the utterly forgettable and slumber inducing chapters about the obsesive-compulsive society, so I usually skipped to the next chapter to get on with the real story.)![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
as a sequel in order to meet the expetations. Since the Speaker books were only average for his ability (which is still better than most authors), then perhaps that is why it seemed such a let down.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
. Personally, I think that Xenocide is the 3rd best book in the Ender/Bean saga. In fact, I think that it was Xenocide that converted me from a casual Ender fan to a die-hard fanatic! Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow will always be my favourites though. Speaker and Children are both excellent as well. They may be slower than EG and the Shadow books, but the fact that they make me think a lot more makes them better in my opinion.
