posted
At the beginning of the Homecoming Series, the Oversoul states his mission as being to return to Earth to get new information from the Keeper of Earth on how to protect the people of Harmony from destroying themselves. That mission kind of changes to repopulate Earth with its original inhabitants, but the Oversoul does get the new imperative and returns to Harmony, presumably to save them from themselves. I found myself wondering what the Oversoul's new objective is. Does he get revamped with more power to control their thoughts? Does he use a more direct approach to save them? Does he go back merely to record their impending doom? I don't recall this being explicitly stated in the novels, but i was curious what your opinions of this are, or if this is covered in the information that the story is based on.
Postscript: Is the name "The Oversoul" taken from R.W. Emerson's essay with the same title?
posted
Actually, I believe that Shedemei, acting on what she thinks the Keeper of Earth wants, tells the copy of the Oversoul on Harmony not to control the people there anymore. She also sends back to that Oversoul a record of the new Earth civilizations and of what the Keeper wants, presumably so the people of Harmony aren't totally without direction.
I'm not exactly sure why those are the instructions to be given to the Oversoul of Harmony. Shedemei believes, I think, that if the current crisis is resolved in favor of the Keeper then Earth will always have good people ready to welcome those from Harmony, and that if it's resolved against the Keeper then Earth's people deserve to be taken over by the new arrivals from there. But if the crisis goes badly, couldn't you just do what you did to Nafai to another group?
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posted
Emerson's Over-Soul delves more into the metaphysical whereupon Cards is and plausible, tangible thing.
Over-Soul is being used more and more in writings because leaves it more open to an unexplainable mover yet more realistic/believable scenario as opposed to using the term GOD.
Emerson in particular seems to use the term more like what is commonly used in new age philosophy. Oversoul is in all atoms... or the atomic god.. god of energy.. all things connected, etc.
Card's oversoul is not so omnipotent, integrated or immersed into all atoms.
Mary Baker Eddy always seemed more like someone who borrowed the philosophies of Emerson more than Card simply borrowing a word.
But I don't pretend to know Card's mind. Just my experience after reading the Homecoming series.. (which has been quite a while since I've read those books so memory may fail).
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posted
!?! Why haven't you put a spoiler warning on this thread! I may have read all of the series but you could be indangering the minds of those who haven't read the books.
So please, please place a spoiler warning on this thread so it doesn't mess with those who haven't read this far into the Homecoming series.
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posted
I believe OSC's creation of the OverSoul's believability and plausibility was already clear in the first novel.. at least it was to me.
Am I wrong? I believed it a lot more than I believed the phiosophical/metaphysical of Emersons' in just one book.
However, I will appologize for disregarding those who have not read any of the homecoming series.. and I don't believe you or anyone will lose or gain any insight by what I wrote.. however, I'm sorry if I said too much. My bad
And now the edit: After going back and reading all the post so far: Good luck trying to figure out what we mean if you've never read any of the Homecoming series.. It looks quite cryptic if you don't know Emerson's or Card's OverSoul. However, perhaps The subject title should state 'spoilers' just in case.
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posted
Advent: Perhaps contacting the moderator to add (SPIOLER* to this topic(I think it's too late for Vonk to change the topic).. I see what you mean now.
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posted
I don't imagine that the Oversoul that Emerson wrote about would be the same Oversoul that Card writes about, i was just curious as to whether that's where the name came from. I was reading a lot of Emerson and Kerouac when i first read The Homecoming Series and the name jumped out at me at the time and i've always associated them. I also drew a link in that they both permeate our minds and hold the collective memory of all humans (kind of in OSCs case).
further, i don't think that Emerson's use of the Oversoul has anything to do with "new age philosophy." but then, when i think "new age" i tend to think the second half of the 20th century, and Emerson wrote his essay in 1841, so it isn't new to me. but then, new is relative.
lastly, the Emerson connection was just an aside to the main topic i was posting. I was more concerned with what Card's Oversoul did when he got back to Harmony. Omega mentioned that he was sent back to show the people of Harmony the records of the civilization that has been started on Earth. If this is the case, is the idea that Harmony's population will come back to earth as well, or that they would model their civilization after Earth's? Or would it be more like a threat, "if you keep making war, this is whats gonna happen." any ideas?
another aside: when you think of the oversoul, do you think he, she, or it?
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I am actually quite aware of when Emerson was alive and when it was written-I was saying that the new age or even scientology tends to be More LIKE Emerson's OverSoul; More metaphysical as opposed to Card's. (hence the ref. to Mary Baker Eddy; whose philosophies weren't compiled until 1890; post Emerson.)
I won't say more than the first book since I am assuming that you've only read the first book and wouldn't want to spoil anything in your future reading. Posts: 163 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
ouch. ouch on multiple levels. yes, i've read all of the Homecoming Series, twice, albeit quite a while ago. i'm in the process of rereading and am in the midst of the third book. so if there is something in the later books that answers my question, well, thats why i asked.
i admit, your massive intelligence, literary knowledge and impressive member ranking dwarf my meager ego. i was merely getting a mite touchy due to the implied relationship between transcendentalism and new age philosophies. i saw this a a suggestion that transcendentalism (i love that word) is a passing theory and not a long standing philosophy with much merit. if i was incorrect in this, i formally apologize. I am not familiar with the works of M.B. Eddy, but intend to make myself so.
that said, "lastly, the Emerson connection was just an aside to the main topic i was posting. I was more concerned with what Card's Oversoul did when he got back to Harmony. Omega mentioned that he was sent back to show the people of Harmony the records of the civilization that has been started on Earth. If this is the case, is the idea that Harmony's population will come back to earth as well, or that they would model their civilization after Earth's? Or would it be more like a threat, "if you keep making war, this is whats gonna happen." any ideas?
another aside: when you think of the oversoul, do you think he, she, or it? "
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posted
LMAO: First, Let's kill this whole " massive intelligence, literary knowledge and impressive member ranking." The member ranking means I've been on the site a long time-nothing more. As for the whole intelligence/knowledge thing: I don't know if this was some type of underhanded attack or sincerity- :)either way I'd rather just be thought of as 'common folk.' *wink* I simply have a degree in Theology which required a lot of philosophy studies.
I rarely post! Emerson caught my attention and obsession.
As for the rest: I'll have to wait until I get off work to address the rest. (requires more time than I have right now)
I'm sure the thread will have grown by the time I get back online tonight! IT ALWAYS DOES! Augh.
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posted
I'm gonna go with underhanded attack due to sincerity. You obviously know more than me on this topic, and i really hate it when people know more than me. heh heh. just a little barb based on my self-consciousness. no offense intended.
posted
MAJOR SPOILER!!!!!!! DO NOT READ if you haven't read the HOMECOMING SERIES.
OSC's Oversoul (in my opinion) was never an OVERLORD. (meaning, it wasn't threatening/ruling) What I saw was more of a data collector and/or an Artificial Intelligence guiding those who are still sensitive to the programming.
To give sentient beings 'history', is to give them the ability to learn from previous mistakes of other sentient beings; And hopefully, avoid previous mistakes; (Wars!) This what the OverSoul's intent is. and perhaps a play on the colloquialism "He who does not know history is bound to repeat it."
Gathering history for the oversoul is not a threat as much as a teaching for future generations.
The reason I believe this is the intent:
The oversoul in this case is a giant computer / satellite. Where as there is a separate voice that is being heard. (which is never clearly defined and left to a faith based/metaphysical being?)
So I can't say what Card's intent was for the future of the OverSoul.. except we know it is going to DIE. And to give them history is what it can give to the sentient beings to help them survive until.. perhaps another 'oversoul' can be created to carry on the next mishaps. Just remember.. it was clear that the current is dying.. and the other voice (the one the father heard is separate from the oversoul.)
In the course of development: Most will merge the two into one GOD/Faith. and hence the history of humanity begins again.
To me, it seems like a weaving of several theories of the history of origin.
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posted
BTW.. Vonk, thank you for leading me to the right book.. I still haven't had the ability to get to the shelf to get to the books but I'll trust you.
It's just one of those nights when I worked a double shift and I'm too tired to get to more than the bare minimum.
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posted
It is possible that the whole point of the mission of the oversoul returning to earth and going back to harmony is to teach them what future is likely based Earth's history. But that seems like a waste of rocket fuel to me (just my opinion).
i always saw the Oversoul as quite the overlord. he didn't quite threaten, but he defenitely fortold doom in a set if/then way. ie: "if mankind doesn't get better they will burn." that was what the whole vision on the rock was right? or well, i guess that was merely a ruse to get Volemak to start rebelling against the Palawashantu (sp?). but still, that is very tricky and decieving. and the oversoul controlled peoples minds. it could almost be called brainwashing. he wouldn't let them think of many many things that could have made their lifes better (right along with worse). i believe this is how Nafai thought about it when he first learned what the Oversoul was doing. i tend to agree with his first impression. therefore, i find the Oversoul both threatening and ruling.
of course, i can not deny that his intend was pure. he had a good cause, but went about achieving it in, shall we say, unethical ways. he was defenitely not honest. at least with any of the millions of people other than Volemak's family.
furthermore, i did not gather from what i read (again, i am in the process of rereading and may not have gotten to the part yet) that the oversould was dying. he certainly was when they left harmony, but did he not get replenished on earth. isn't that why he went back in the first place, because he knew he was failing and the only thing that could help him was the Keeper? i guess i just assumed from that that the Keeper had restored him, or at least Shedemei had. or someone, somehow. maybe i'm just adding that in based on my expectations.
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posted
Again, the oversoul is simply a giant computer.. it's conclusions are based upon data.
The fact that 'they will burn' is a twist on theological predictions of the end of man is simply part of the program and writer of this story. Religion, by it's nature, seems to hold a threat. a God or (OVER SOUL) would thus complile data to the same.
I saw Card's writing in this book as a division of several theories/philosophy regarding freewill vs predestination. Something I've questioned most of my life is: "IS there really a Free Will with an all knowing god?" I could FEEL Nafai's battle from start to finish.
I believe it comes down to the reader (as intended by the author). We all read and interpret things differently. And in general, it's a great story with a lot of metaphors, analogies and cross philosophies/theologies. This is what makes OSC unique and worth the read and thoughts that emerge within each of us.
Vonk.. We will probably not agree on a lot.. but it's just our personal interpretations based upon our experiences in life.
As it is: I can't see a similiarity of Emerson's OverSoul and Cards. They're polar to me.
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quote:Originally posted by Roseauthor: For those who have read the whole series: Question?
The scene with the father's dream about the tree of life and the river: Which book was that in?
I have all my OCS books on a shelf which requires obtaining a ladder and I'd like to just get the one book down with minimal effort!
Years ago I used that story in a bible class and I'd like to revisit/re-use it again.
FYI, the original Tree of Life story is found in the Book of Mormon. It's in the first book of Nephi, chapter 8. I actually haven't read the Homecoming series yet, mostly because it was pointed out to me awhile ago that the story is basically OSC's retelling of the stories in the Book of Mormon in a Scifi setting. As I have read the former many times, the premise of the series didn't hold alot of attraction for me. However, since I am currently looking for something of value to read, maybe it's time I picked it up. Thanks for the dicussion here.
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ReddwarfVII: I knew of it in Nephi and Genesis but I liked the story in OSC's book because it was something the teen/youth could relate to in teaching series. I chose to use this more modern approach to show connect to their generation.
You really should read the Homecoming series. It's incredibly philosophical and theological.
I had this is a must read when I taught at a private school. The Homecoming series invited a great many debates and ideas from the high school kids and the Bible became more applicable for their lives when they read this series.
I'm not a mormon however, I do have the Book of Mormon that I read for personal reasons. (I doubt the mormons would really want me.. LOL)
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posted
If a god (or oversoul) were omnipotent, you wouldn't know whether you had free will or not. Like the people of Harmony not nowing they didn't have free will until the Oversoul lost some of its power.
i defenitely agree that a lot of what you get out of the Homecoming Series, and most of OSCs work, is completely subjective; but i also think that some of it is universal (what i couln't say, having a subjective veiwpoint).
i think that we agree on several points, but i also enjoy arguing about something so that i can see sides that i wouldn't have thought about before.
and i would not assert that there are more than arbitrary similarities between Emersons and OSCs oversoul unless OSC said so himself. I do think the names are the same and wondered if that was where OSC got his name for an alternative god. merely curiousity, no assertions.
i would love to read to Book of Mormon, if not just so i can see the similarities between it and the Homecoming Series. Is it written with a similar style to other religious texts, ie: so-and-so begot so-and-so, and so-and-so begot so-and-so... etc etc. or is the story more easily followed?
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posted
if the Homecoming series, the Women of Genesis, Stone Tables, or any other OSC book had been used to engage us in religous thought and debates when i was in sunday school, church or youth group, i would probably have much more faith than i do right now. (faith in things religious anyhoo, i got lotsa faith in other stuff)
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posted
The Book of Mormon is much easier to read than the Bible itself. It's much smaller and less intimidating to those who are just starting out in 'the faith.'
The worse read: Science and Health; by Mary Baker Eddy! Although I do not include this as religious text, there are many who do who are following Scientology.
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posted
Wait, from what i found on google, m.b. eddy founded the church of christian science. thats not the same thing as scientology. scientologists aren't even christian.
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posted
Roseauthor, I wasn't sure if you were aware of the connection between the two, so I thought I would mention it just in case. I hope that I didn't come off sounding like a know-it-all uppity mormon or something. Wasn't my intention.
Vonk, I agree with Rose about the Book of Mormon readability compared to the Bible. Whether or not you accept it a work of scripture, the language it uses is plainer than the bible and in many cases easier to understand. If you are serious about wanting to read it, the LDS church has the whole thing on the web at their website www.lds.org or you can order a free copy of the book at www.mormon.org.
Okay, I will stop commenting now until I have read at least the first book of the homecoming series. Then at least I will know what you two are debating.
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posted
Reddwarf: I didn't feel you were being anything but sincere. And you'll Love the series! Years ago I called Card's writing a 'ministry'.. (he didn't like that pressure so I stopped further comments *wink*) However, since you're aware of the religious connection in his books, you'll find this particular series a bit of a ministry. (just don't tell Card! shhh.. our secret!)
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