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Author Topic: A question for OSC fans
Numinor West
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This is difficult to put into words, so please be patient with me. Read the entire post before you make any snap judgments. First of all, I am not writing this for OSC. I would appreciate if he did not read this or reply to it because that would taint my motive. My motive is to discover something about myself by asking a question to the die-hard fans of OSC’s work. I consider myself a diehard OSC fan because I tell everyone (when the subject of novels come up) he is my favorite author, I always recommend Ender’s Game to the uninitiated, I have almost all of his books, and I’m always looking to increase my collection as our budget permits. However, those diehard qualifiers only scratch the surface of the affect of OSC’s fiction has on my life. That is the essence of my question to the rest of you and my motive for writing this post.

Has OSC helped you become a better person?

Personally, I answer that question with a confident “Yes”. OSC has changed the type of person I am. His understanding of human relationships and the human condition comes out in his literature in such a way that I could not help but be a changed person. I am a better husband, father, brother, son because of what I have learned from reading his novels. I am a better leader in the office for the same reason. Is that sappy? Is that hero worship?

Is it weird that OSC’s writing has affected me so deeply?

Disclaimer: I do not worship OSC. I have tremendous respect for him that might border on hero-worship, but I already have a God and his name is Jesus Christ. I went to Moody Bible Institute and I believe the Bible is the only Word of God. The Holy Spirit is my source of strength to overcome temptation. Please, let’s not let this topic turn into a doctrinal debate. I mention the disclaimer because I want to make the point that I already have a deep faith of orthodox origin.

I know that OSC is a Mormon and that hasn’t changed the fact that his writing has made me a better person on many levels. I consider his literature as human-relationship teachings dressed up as science-fiction / fantasy.

Do you agree with that or am I taking all of this too seriously?

Thanks for listening.

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Launchywiggin
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Yes, OSC's novels have changed my life for the better--and I've learned more about life and myself from his characters than I ever did in church or school.

And I think I'm in the same boat about the hero-worship thing. I've daydreamed about OSC coming into my restaurant and me getting to wait on him--weird?--definitely.

But that's why Hatrack is so cool. You actually DO get to talk to him. And now when I see him in my restaurant I can be like "Hi, Are you Orson Scott Card?! Wow! You're like, my FAVORITE author. HEY--and I'm 'Launchywiggin' on Hatrack and you responded to one of my posts once!"

Annnyway...

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hatrkr81
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numinor...i agree with you whole heartedly...when i read ender's game for the first time, i was blown away, but i wouldn't say it was life changing..when i got into the speaker series, i found myself just appreciating the world more and everything about the world. i had and have a deeper respect for nature, and i've learned to really examine and study relationships...his books have definitely been a life changing experience for me...i know what you mean..you almost do get a spiritual experience with his books...he's a one of a kind author.
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oolung
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I agree with you all [Smile] It started some 10 years ago, when I was still just a primary school kid, and lasts to this day. I have to say these two years I've only reread his books occasionally (having read them so many times before... khem khem), but still he's undoubtedly one of the two most important writers in my life.
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Flaming Toad on a Stick
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His books have definitely changed the way I think about people. I won't always agree with his opinions, but I really have been affected by his work.

oolung, I'll fall into your trap and ask you who the other author is. [Big Grin]

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Nathan2006
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One thing about his books is that they always make me think. There may have been some kind of statement or messege, and I have to decide whether or not I agree with it.

I know he says that he doesn't use his books as some sort of soap box (And he doesn't intentionally), and I know that he shows a variety of view points and ideas, but, I believe that a piece of you, your beliefs, or whatever will inadvertantly end up in your writing somewhere.

Anywho, I've had to make up my mind on a couple of things in his books, sometimes agreeing, sometimes not, but I'm thinking. (Smell smoke yet?)

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Orson Scott Card
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Nathan, I agree; nay, it is impossible to tell a story without it containing your deepest beliefs about the world. I trust that phenomenon so completely that I feel no need to put sermons in my fiction; anything that I think of as a "message" is likely to be something that I'm LESS certain of, to be something I don't believe as deeply, which is why I feel greater urgency about it. Thus when I catch myself "making a point" I try either to delete it or subvert it so that the reader is not confronted with a sermon. Much better to let whatever influence there is come upon the reader the way influences come in the real world - as part of the surrounding milieu.

I wonder if "life-changing" isn't more about the reader than the story or the writer; that is, to say a book is "life-changing" requires that you (1) recognize that there is a change happening and (2) not already be going in the same direction as the story <grin>.

That is, if you're already substantially living in the same moral universe as the writer, then you won't notice a change.

There's also a certain openness in the Changed Reader: There are plenty of readers who are so firmly locked in their present worldview that they'll read a story with a very different one and unconsciously edit it to conform with their own deep belief-set (or reject it entirely). Thus the "Changed Reader" is of a group that is not already in complete confluence with the writer/story, but is close enough to recognize the difference as a positive rather than antithetical one, and is willing to change in conformity with a new set of ideals.

But make no mistake: ALL stories (fictional and otherwise) are normative: The sheer fact of telling the story says that the teller regards this story as Worth Telling. That's a value judgment right there; and when the reader considers a story Worth Reading, then to that degree there is already confluence - they are already at least partly on the same road.

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Orson Scott Card
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I apologize for responding and therefore probably wrecking everything on this thread. But I have also been Changed by things I've read (hence "The Changed Man and the King of Words") and I already recognize that it isn't actually the writer who "makes" the change happen - it's a cooperative thing between writer and reader, between community and individual, etc. It's an important phenomenon and it happens all the time, since the stories we hear and read and see shape our worldview more, perhaps, than our genes (at least in the case of some people).

So the phenomenon you're talking about is not, in my view, about me or my stories except accidentally. It's really about a worldwide, species-wide phenomenon. I can only hope that whatever changes are made upon reading works of mine will make both the individual and the community happier - and better able to thrive.

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MightyCow
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The books on writing are helping me to write better. That's enough for me [Smile]
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Icarus
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Numinor: Yes.
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Numinor West
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OSC: What better way to ensure your reply than to ask you not to read it? ;-)

I have read and enjoyed many various authors. None of their works reach me at the same level than yours in regards to improved human relationships.

Stephen Donaldson: nope. I should qualify that by saying reading Donaldson encourages me to become a better writer, not a better person.

Lewis: nope.
Tolkein: nope.
Clarke: nope.
Heinlein: nope.
Herbert: nope.

Actually, in the case of Heinlein and Herbert I sense the attempt to affect me negatively that I must consciously resist. However that doesn't detract from my enjoyment in reading their work.

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vonk
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OSC's books have made me a better person because they give me something to do on my down time. If I didn't have a cache of OSC books on me at all times (home/work/girlfriend's house/parent's house) I would undoubtably get annoyed with inanities of life and either piss people off with sarcastic jabs or get sloppy drunk and forget which twin I'm dating.

So, OSC, everyone I know thanks you. Except my bosses, who get mad that I read too much during my lunch break.

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TomDavidson
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I credit OSC for introducing me to fictional philotes, Edge/Center Nations, ramen/varelse, and Making/Unmaking. All of these, while hardly universally applicable, make interesting filters through which you can view a given issue or behavior.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I credit OSC for introducing me to fictional philotes, Edge/Center Nations, ramen/varelse, and Making/Unmaking. All of these, while hardly universally applicable, make interesting filters through which you can view a given issue or behavior.

I like that synopsis alot. Usually as I conclude an OSC novel I reflect on the events of my own life and many times characters from the books and events therein inspire me to act different. So yes, OSC's books have influenced me into being a better person.
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oolung
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Toad: I didn't intend it as a trap... but since you ask [Smile] The other author is Tolkien (such a commonplace, I know). I got to know both his and OSC's books at more or less the same time: OSC changed my way of thinking about people, Tolkien had a great impact on the way my imagination works. I came to admire him even more after reading his letters.

Love your nick, by the way [Smile]

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MightyCow
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Numinor: I'm surprised that you didn't feel that Lewis or Heinlein offered any positive effects. I found Lewis' work particularly to make me think a lot on spirituality and a variety of moral issues. Heinlein didn't make me become a better person just by reading his work, but it gave me a lot to think about.

I think causing someone to reevaluate his beliefs is very positive. The more a belief is examined and tested, the more important it becomes, and hopefully, the more it becomes true and useful.

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Numinor West
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MightyCow: every author I read gives me positive affects. However, only 1 author prompts me to change the way I behave towards other people.
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dkw
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Then you need to find more good authors.
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Sterling
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I think Mr. Card has probably caused me to become a better writer.

A better person is harder to say. In as much as a well-written character causes one to exercise human sympathy, a muscle than easily atrophies in our culture, perhaps.

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MightyCow
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Reading Ayn Rand has caused me to change the way I behave toward other people. I try to be nice to others, even when I get no immediate benefit, because she's a nutcase.
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Numinor West
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dkw: Who do you recommend? I hesitate to ask because that requires you to actually put some thought into your reply.
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dkw
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I assure you that even my short replies are composed with adequate thought.

As for authors, I can't know what will speak to you. But I would find it sad if in all the abundance of wonderful writing you were to only find one author who affects you deeply enough to change how you relate to others. I hope that you will find many more in your lifetime.

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Numinor West
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I appreciate that sentiment. But why not share with everyone here an author's name that has affected you personally on the same level as OSC? I think that is a relevant question for this topic.
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Flaming Toad on a Stick
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Try Ursula K. LeGuin.
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MightyCow
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Numinor: Would you mind explaining in a little more detail what you mean when you say OSC's books have prompted you to change the way you behave towards people. Which books specifically, and in what way? How does this differ from the "positive effects" that other writers' books have on you?
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by MightyCow:
Reading Ayn Rand has caused me to change the way I behave toward other people. I try to be nice to others, even when I get no immediate benefit, because she's a nutcase.

[ROFL] I am going to have to remember that line.
quote:
Originally posted by Numinor West:
I hesitate to ask because that requires you to actually put some thought into your reply.

Wow, THAT was rude! [Razz]
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Numinor West
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MightyCow: I notice many people around here are very quick to make mindless statements and/or easy accusations so your sincere questions are a welcome change.
The books that have had the most impact on me are his Ender series, Pastwatch, Bean sub-series, and Alvin Maker series. I've read many more than that, but those are the ones that I go back and revisit on a regular basis. I have read and enjoyed many other sci-fi/fantasy authors. LeGuin is one of them and is a good example for the point I'm trying to make. Her universe does not have moral absolutes; therefore, I constantly filter her belief system against my own. This doesn't mean I don't get positive affects. I am entertained at some level or I would not read her. That goes for the rest of the authors on my list. Their writing is good enough to entertain me. That's really the only motive I need to read a book by any author. With OSC, there is a rare confluence of factors that cause his writing to affect change in me at a much deeper level than any other author.
1. Sci-fi/Fantasy - my favorite genre
2. Moral absolutes
3. Personal responsibility
4. The individual has a responsibility to the community
5. Family friendly - PG-13 content
6. His focus on relationships
7. His writing style / perspective
8. His understanding of motivation

There are even more intangibles, but that list is a start. OSC has filled a niche in sci-fi fantasy that no one else (that I'm aware) even comes close to filling. And I must clarify that it goes much deeper than how I "behave" towards people. It can be summed up nicely in his concept that everyone is the hero of their own story, including the enemy. That was a life-changing concept for me when it finally hit home.

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Peter_The_Great
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I would consider myself changed, and for the better by OSC's works. But I agree with OSC that it is a relationship between the reader and writer and that many books have changed the way I look at the world. While OSC is certainly my favorite author he may not have changed me the most, I don't know who I should give credit for to that, or even if someone besides me deserves the credit (maybe its me who deserves it). bottom line, OSC's works have changed me, and for the better
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beware_of_moose
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Mr. Card simply writes the human form well. Through either long research or just natural insight, he's somehow become able to write very realistic human emotions and reactions into his fictions.

Through these descriptions, I can see how varied people are. Each nuance of character stems from one writer. So must the gamut of experience and thought also be in everyone else. Everyone does things based on their own built-in senses of what is right, wrong, and negligable.

In short, the writings have allowed me to become more accepting of others when they do the things they do. It's because I understand that people just... are.

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TomDavidson
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Numinor, are you saying that OSC's work is particularly influential in your case because he believes in the same moral absolutes that you do? Or do you disagree with him on those absolutes?
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Numinor West
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For me the fact that OSC has moral absolutes in his writing is enough of a distinguishing factor compared to the rest of the genre. His strong family values are an extension of that in which I certainly appreciate.
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Scott R
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quote:
the fact that OSC has moral absolutes in his writing is enough of a distinguishing factor compared to the rest of the genre. His strong family values are an extension of that in which I certainly appreciate.
It's the phrase "compared to the rest of the genre" that bugs me. I read a lot of short science fiction, and I just don't see that the great majority of work out there is a moral sinkhole. (I'm not ecstatic over this year's Nebula/Hugo nominees, though...)

What have you read that makes you think that other speculative fiction writers don't include moral absolutes?

By the way-- here's a list of my life-altering fiction books:


Les Miserables
Cry, the Beloved Country
My Name is Asher Lev


K.D. Wentworth's Tall One put me on the path to writing short speculative fiction; I'm still not sure if I agree with what was said in the story, but I know it was well-written.

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Numinor West
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Scott: Are those books Sci-Fi / Fantasy?

Moral relativity is easy to spot in Herbert / Heinlein / LeGuin.

It is a very subtle influence that you may or may not notice. Whenever an individual decides what is right or wrong based on relativistic values (and it is portrayed as the acceptable / only way of making decisions), then that author does not have moral absolutes. I realize that is a judgement call on my part as I read the novel, but it will still prevent me from investing my emotions in what that author has to say.

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Scott R
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quote:
Scott: Are those books Sci-Fi / Fantasy?

All those books are...I dunno, regular fiction.

Did you intend this discussion to be kept to ONLY speculative fiction authors?

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Numinor West
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Not at all. I read other genres, but sci-fi / fantasy is the one that I most enjoy; one of the main factors that attract me to OSC's work. I asked the question because if one of those on your list was sci-fi, I would probably run out an buy it :-D
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Scott R
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Numinor, you should at least read Les Miserables. I think you'd like it.

[Smile]

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Cheli
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I would think so.

I've only read the Ender and Shadow series, but even those 8 books have impacted my life. I was skeptical when a friend first recommended EG. A week later, I was curled up on my bed reading it for the third or fourth time.

Being a teenager, I guess I was able to relate to Ender and his feelings as he goes through his Battle School experiences, even though it's such a different setting than mine.

As the series went on, and in the Shadow series, I obviously had more trouble relating to the character's experiences or emotions in the situations they faced. However, this brought a new layer of meaning - I gained insight about the world around me. I don't pretend to know much about love, life, or the universe (or much in between); OSC's writing added depth to my limited knowledge and pushed the boundaries gently, saying "there IS more out there."

Often in everyday life, I find myself comparing situations and people to the Ender universe. Instead of simply dismissing things at first glance, I might think "hey, this reminds me of that time that Ender [insert situation]!", or "maybe she's a bit like Qing-jao."

To be honest, I wasn't really a fan of science fiction before OSC. My sci-fi exposure had been limited to growing up on Star Trek episodes, and when it came to literature, I had only read a few Star Trek novels to keep myself from going brain-dead during the summer holidays.

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Pythian%Legume
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I would say that indeed OSC has brought up many social issues and written alot of pretty good social commentary. It makes you question what you think about people, or at least it made me question the way I think about people, and it made me think alot about ambition, how ambitious I am, and it makes me think about what it is to be part of humanity. What it means to be a human.
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Amilia
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quote:
For me the fact that OSC has moral absolutes in his writing is enough of a distinguishing factor compared to the rest of the genre.
I'm with Scott. I just don't see where you are coming from, Numinor. I see most SF/F as morality plays. Good vs. Evil. The reason people are drawn to them (IMO) is because they allow us to work through moral dillemas in a realm outside of our own. By moving the setting to a fictional universe, the action is far enough removed from the real world for the author to explore these moral issues without sounding too preachy.

Maybe I just don't get the distinction you are making between moral relativity and moral absolutes.

Anyway, I second Scott's recommendations. Even if they aren't SF/F.

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Lucky_Sean
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- Of course, I had originally read Enders Game when I was 6 years old, when my best friend 4 years my senior had suggested it to me. So much of the way of thinking that the students did was transcribed upon me. Not all good of course, but I was able to determine the difference as I went along.

A thing that I recently realized that I have been subconciously doing has come from OSC as well. His character work is of immaculate detail and allows the reader to understand the perspective and motivations very accurately. This has been put upon me in theatre much as of late, and I had realized that alot of my personal character work comes from the way that OSC would describe a characters behaviour and emotions. Yes it is a lot different, but the fundamentals were impressed upon me at a young age and have been helpful beyond explanations.


- It is not weird to have it affect you so deeply, he has taken people and made them real. Such as good theatre and REALLY rare film does. The interpersonal connections of why someone has done something, things that are similar to you life situations, and all that form of connection that a reader and audience can develop - is why we really create art. To pass on messages and information in a way that is both entertaining and interesting. So we don't forget it, and we can ask ourselves " what would 'character' do in my situation?" It affects you deeply because there is some meaning behind it, instead of being shallow.

- I agree in many ways, and yes it isn't a OSC worship, it is a respect for someone who has passed down lessons and life through a form of art. Which is the reason why we are supposed to like movie stars, but nowadays we just like them for all the wrong reasons.

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pooka
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I don't know that I could credit Card alone with helping me to want to see other people's point of view, but I will say he is the best at putting it into enjoyable stories. A lot of books are fun while your reading them. There's not much about them that stays with me, though. I'd class the Dune trilogy this way, also Dean Koontz and John Grisham.

The other books I really prefer are thick Russian novels, but I'm not really coming up with much in the "what they do for me" department. I guess some snobby part of me enjoys being able to enjoy them. Though it's not like I'm reading them in Russian or anything. Well, there's War and Peace which works really hard to make an impact on you and it does, but it is deliberate. Tolstoy himself said it was not really a novel. I should really read that again.

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oc
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OSC definetly changed my outlook on life. He did not make my life better or worse, but through his books, I understand myself. I am not a genius like the kids in Ender's Game, but I do want to be a world leader. Peter and Valentine's story had the biggest effect on me because it made me realize that power isn't important unless you can change something for the better, and that no one is powerless. I don't know what in his books made me realize this, but I feel as though I have a better outlook on myself.
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Ionienne
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I read OSC for the first time in my teens. The Ender's stories contributed a lot to my thinking of life and other philosophical topics. For me it was the right discovery at the right time. I don't know if it has influenced my way of being, but for sure it has influenced/ orientated my thinking.
It is funny though, because I was really fond of science fiction (i would say any kind of sci/fi) at that time, and I was there in the library, looking for something new, and a man I didn't know came to me and my friend with the Ender's Game and told us "you really should read that" and disappeared. I couldn't guess that it would become the top of my booklist just by reading the bad summary about a space school..... Sometimes I wish this guy was OSC, but how could he have been so far from the USA, with such a perfect French accent???

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Amilia
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Thick Russian Novels.
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David C.
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I'll have to concur with the rest. OSC's novels have definitely helped to make me a better person. But I would have to say that all well written books have that effect.

I learned my sense of right and wrong at an early age, both from my family and from my religion. But knowledge in a vacuum is rarely useful.

Well written works, where the characters are believable, allow you to get to know the kinds of people you would never be able to (or want to) get to know in real life. Both good people (that you would like to be more like) and bad people (that you would like to avoid becoming like.) Seeing how these characters face a wide variety of situations allows you to think of how you would react in those situations. And then when similar situations occur in real life, you're a little more prepared than you would otherwise be.

OSC's novels are good for this because the characters are always believable. There are a few other authors who do this very well, but not nearly as many as I'd like there to be. This is one of the reasons I'm a big fan of Babylon 5, and why I prefer it to Star Trek (which I also enjoy, don't get me wrong.) The former's characters are more like real people, while the latter's characters are more like archetypes.

You can tell a lot of great stories with archetypes, but you can't convince an audience member that he might bump into one on the subway, or that he might someday become like one.

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