posted
I wonder why the Hive Queen's only attempt to survive as a species in "Ender's Game" is to rely on Ender. He wasn't even born when she decided to leave Earth alone. And there was no way for her to know that Ender would be one of the colonists on that particular planet where she hid the new Hive Queen for him to find. In addition to that, how did the humans actually find all the other bugger planets?
She doesn't seem to be so altruistic to bet the survival of her species on guessing, does she? Was she more interested in peace with the humans than she was in survival?
Posts: 262 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Have you read Xenocide yet? If you have you should some time soon. It explains what the Hive Queen did. It is a little confusing but is makes sense if you think of it a certian way.
Posts: 1164 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:There was no way for her to know that Ender would be one of the colonists on that particular planet where she hid the new Hive Queen for him to find. In addition to that, how did the humans actually find all the other bugger planets?
Please, enlighten me. I read all of the Ender- sequels last week, but... well, I don't get it completely. What if Ender had never come to the "Giant's" planet?
Posts: 262 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Well, I would say they knew where all the Formics worlds were BECAUSE THEY FOUGHT A WAR ABOVE MOST OF THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Well, I would say they knew where all the Formics worlds were BECAUSE THEY FOUGHT A WAR ABOVE MOST OF THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You're funny. They had to find the planets BEFORE THEY STARTED TO FiGHT WARS ABOVE MOST OF THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As I understand it, the humans were able to track the route of the buggers back to their home planet, but what about all the other worlds?
Posts: 262 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I don't remember exactly, but wasn't the Hive Queen able to access Ender's mind back when he was playing the Mind Game in Battle School? From then on, wouldn't she be able to mentally manipulate him until he was on the right planet and could find her resting place? Wasn't that the same time Jane became aware of Ender, in the Mind Game? i could be confusing things though, i need to reread that part of the series.
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posted
The Formics attempted to take control of Ender, but ended up understanding him, and therefore trusting him. (Not that they had much choice at that point.)
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posted
Even if they had control of Ender, HE didn't control his life. He had no influence on his actual destination. He left with the next ship to ANY colony, didn't he?
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posted
I don't think they had zombie like control of him, but they had to manipulate something in order to get him to the write plannet. the Hive Queen didn't actually speak in his mind until he found her, did she? so they had to control something, even though they already trusted him. anyways, i wouldn't say she is alrtuistic either way. she is certainly expert at using guilt to get her way.
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posted
Jane I think, was created as an outcome of the Formics attempt to control Ender and is refered to by the Hive Queen later on (in Xenocide or Children of the Mind)as a bridge. I think that should be taken so far as to say that Jane controlled Ender's travels just as she controlled his finances. She did, in fact, come to being before Ender got to the first colony planet. This info comes from a small collection of short stories that OSC wrote, though, I forgot the title. so who controlled Ender's destinations? Jane. and Jane was created by Ender and the Hive Queens, which can be seen when Ender plays the Giant game and is shown something of the terrain <correct me, this part my memory is vague on)which he recognizes later on when he gets to that planet and finds the Hive Queen behind the mirror.
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posted
Possibly, but they would have had the destination picked out before Jane would be able to do anything to influence what colony Ender went to.
Posts: 2437 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
it was the other way round, Measure. The Hive Queen "read" the mind of Ender and THEN she built the terrain that would look like the Giant Game landscape (it says so in the book - it was artificial).
Why would Jane be able to control Ender's destination? She only found him after he set out to the colony (there is a moment somewhere when she says she had to look for him - she didn't know it was him that created her from the beginning. And anyway, she had no means of controlling him: she was created from his mind and hers, but then became an independent will and being, not connected to Ender in any 'psychic' way. Were it not for the jewel in Ender's ear, he couln't communicate with her as he did.
I think the Hive Queen just trusted her luck. Or maybe the way they understood each other (she and Ender, in Ender's dreams) was enough for her to know that he would himself (even if not sent away by Peter) come to her planet. Maybe she knew him well enough by that time to know that he would have to see tha place whose inhabitants he killed. And then finding the artificial Giant game landsape would only be a matter of time.
Posts: 218 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I don't think she would have left it up to luck. that seems a little risky. she had to have mentally "suggested" it to him. whats more, she must have planned it before Ender got to Command School and before the Formics were destroyed. If the giant terrain that he found the Hive Queen in was artificial, she had to have had help from living buggers. She couldn't have done it from her cocoon state.
Did the Hive Queen know that the Formics would lose the war?
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posted
the Hive Queen who Ender found in the cocoon was not the one that came to him in dreams and built the terrain: the cocoon was her last 'child' that she left hidden before the buggers were destroyed (she and all the other queens were on one planet then, the one ender destroyed in the last battle). The Hive Queen Ender found could only show him the memories as her own in the sense that all the Hive Queens had the same memories (so in a mental way she WAS the one that communicated with Ender, but not in the physical sense). She told Ender it was all done in the last few months left to them, when they already knew the chances for their survival were almost none. (in the last stages of the war, yes, she realised that she would eventually lose).
Posts: 218 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
thats right, i remember now. but that still means that the last Hive Queen directed Ender to find the planet where she was hidden. There is no way they would have left it up to luck that he would just happen by the mountain that looks like a fallen giant and figure it out while he was still able to help her. She was always looking out for herself above all else.
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posted
Here is an idea. Who says that the Formics only placed a Hive Queen cacoon on that one world. If I remember right it never says in any of the books that they didn't.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Hmmm... great idea, Advent. I wonder how long could the other ones last, if Ender's Queen could wait for him till he gets to the planet and finds the place (some 60, 70 years, probably).
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posted
i can't back it up with a quote right now, but i am pretty sure OSC specified that there was only the one Hive Queen. If not, would there then be mountains that look like fallen giants on, what, dozens, hundreds of planets? wouldn't someone else find one? no, i'm pretty sure there was only the one, and she manipulated either Ender or Jane to get Ender to the right planet.
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posted
the hive queen must have left it to luck. isn't her message to ender explained as her last attempt to survive? she couldn't have had any control over ender, she even says that it was a disappointment that she couldnt control ANY human (as is said to valentine when she meets the hive queen) also, jane couldn't have influenced this decision, i think, because her aiua was said to still be young and "stupid," not entirely aware. you can say that jane wasn't sentient then. she was only a being enough to help the hive queen understand and reach into ender's mind. jane's many levels of attention, as i've imagined, weren't established. i'd even assume that her attention could still be almost entirely devoted to ender. didnt the hive queen also say that she could never control jane also? that it was merely easier to understand computers because of their percision or exact thought? it could be said that jane was created with this purpose in mind. that the hive queen knew that she needed to get ender to the planet where the giant was crafted into the landscape. the motive is almost perfect. but it's only jane's intelligence at that point of the story that i can truly question. not to mention that the hive queen didnt necessarily know that their home world would be destroyed.
Posts: 57 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Ender had already met Jane when he found the Hive Queen. So its possible that Jane "helped" him find the Hive Queen. Now i'm going to have to go back and reread. I just can't believe that the Hive Queen would leave it up to luck that Ender would find her. Which book would they specify this in? I guess i'll start with Speaker. or is it at the end of EG?
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quote:Originally posted by vonk: Ender had already met Jane when he found the Hive Queen. So its possible that Jane "helped" him find the Hive Queen. Now i'm going to have to go back and reread. I just can't believe that the Hive Queen would leave it up to luck that Ender would find her. Which book would they specify this in? I guess i'll start with Speaker. or is it at the end of EG?
jane and ender had not met before he found the hive queen. jane revealed herself to him on the planet sorreledolce (forgive the spelling, i dont have the 'first meetings' book with me) as an intelligent piece of financial software after ender had already been traveling. he had just turned 21. wasnt he only a little older than 16 when ender's game ended?
Posts: 57 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
wait a second. i remember reading in speaker for the dead that ender and jane met on rov while he was speaking for the dead. but in 'investment counselor' he had already written the hive queen and the hegemon but had never actually spoken anyone's death.
(also, i should mention that it's suggested that it was valentine's idea that ender use a name other than his own in 'investment counselor' where as in 'ender's game' he presented 'the hive queen' already signed 'speaker for the dead' to valentine.)
at the end of 'investment counselor' ender lists himself as "itinerant speaker for the dead." sorelledolce was supposedly where he witnessed his first speaking AND discovered jane, according to the short story.
Posts: 57 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
yeah, i was basing my assumptions on Investment Councilor, not on the novels. so i could be wrong. but i thought that when Ender went to Sorelledolce he didn't have the Hive Queen with him. am i just wrong then? cause thats cool.
either way though, i still hold that the Hive Queen would not have left Ender's locating her up to luck. She must have had some way to guide him to where she was, though how, i have no idea. anyone? anyone?
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
i'd like to think that he was led in some way (it sure would save me on some thought!). but what if it was something that was written into the physical universe? ender's aiua was brought out of chaos with greatness in "mind" and he simply used his freewill in ways that he could achieve this greatness.
there may have been a second choice (bean) amongst the humans but in the end they put their lives in ender's hands and his hands alone. this point alone makes me believe that it's possible that the hive queen left her fate in ender's hands (being the chance of him going with the colony ship and seeing the landscape). it would mean a perfect redemption in the later books. but i have to leave! let me post more in about 20 minutes!
Posts: 57 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
ok, i'm a little confused. if it was "written into the physical universe" then it was his destiny to find the Hive Queen, and i'm not sure i jive with that theory. the other being that his lofty intelligence led him by his own choices to find her. that seems the more likely, that the Hive Queen was able to use what psychic resources she had to make the best possible guess where Ender would travel and where she would be the safest to wait for him. i do like this theory, that his genious is what he used to destroy the Formics, just as it was his genious that led him to save them. however, it seems a little bit hokey to me. i tend to go with the rule of simplicity (that always tends to be wrong in OSC novels), and he was somehow given knowledge through unknown channels.
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posted
i dont like the idea of it being ender's "destiny" as much as a possibilty that he could have missed out on had he not made the right choices. that is to say, he used his "lofty intelligence" to achieve a greatness that only he could achieve. the significance of his aiua and his greatness is just something i'm toying with. although seeing the word "destiny" sort of makes me shy away from this little idea of mine. i guess i'll have to put more thought into it..
what i was saying in my previous post almost goes hand in hand with what you're saying, vonk, about his genious being the destruction and savior of the buggers. it would only make his genious so much stronger and valued to know that he was savior of both mankind and buggers alike. that, infact, he destroyed the buggers while he was the last hope of the humanrace (due to their inability to communicate) to only restore the hive queen and unite both sentient species as the last hope of the hive queen.
Posts: 57 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Ender found the cocoon Hive Queen on the first planet that his colony ship landed at. Considering that his colony ship was the first one to depart and that the planet was chosen by those other than Ender, it could be surmised that Ender didn't engineer the journey that led to the unearthing of the cocoon.
However, one could theorize that the adult Hive Queen (who came up with the plan), logically thought that humans would cultivate the worlds left behind by the Formics (since that's what they'd do), and would cultivate first the planets closest to Earth. In canon, it's stated that they hoped humans would continue on after them. Perhaps the planet that Ender's ship landed on, the planet with the hidden cocoon Queen, was just the planet closest to Earth? Or at least, one of the closest. If there were other planets within a similar distance, then the adult Hive Queen could've gone with her best logical conclusion and left it up to chance from that point on.
It's also interesting, whoever said it above, to wonder if the Hive Queen knew they were going to lose the war. Who's to say that after the first battle, she realized that between their tactics and their new weapons, that humans would overpower the Hive. Then she knew that humans would come to her worlds, as they came to the planetoid the Command School was on, and they would populate them, so she bought an insurance policy, chose the most logical planet for her gamble, and then went about fighting the rest of the war as best she could.
It might not have been that she knew she was going to lose the war, but there's no way she could have guessed that Ender would never return to Earth, that Valentine and Peter would act the way they did and ensure his exile from the planet, that the military would even choose him to be the first governor of the colony. Despite her close connection with Ender via Jane, there's still no way she could have possibly guessed to outcome of the decisions of individuals OUTSIDE of Ender's knowledge months or years before they actually took place.
I think she used the best information she had, did as best she could, and it all worked out for her in the end.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I actually was wondering the same thing, Pinky. How did they know he would go on that first colony ship? My answer is they knew how he would grieve over their death, and that he would not go back to earth, and that Valentine would come with him to get away from Peter, because they were part if him and they understood him that well.
It would be that colony because it was much closer than any others.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
who's to say they were expecting him to go immediately or on his own? Perhaps they believed that no matter where they built it that when the Mind Game's scene would be discovered Ender would hear of it. And perhaps they had come to know Ender well enough that when he heard about it he would not be able to resist going to see it for himself. And maybe it was just coincedence he left on that fist colony ship... which is likely... since it would have been probably built on a smaller planet that was lost in the later battles of the war since no one else had gone down to explore or they would have found int... OR JUST HAD A THOUGHT... maybe it already had been explored right after the victory and the scene had been reported back to IF and then when Ender decided to go on a colony ship they sent it there knowing Ender might be the only one to understand it since it came from his playing the mind game. Maybe they were hoping he could bring some technology or something beneficial to them out of it.
Posts: 16 | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Another thought, as it's clear the Hive Queen was able to manipulate the game, and therefore the battle school computer system, could they not have influenced Graff in some way to insure that humans would settle that specific planet?
Posts: 26 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I think it's fairly clear from conversations The Hive Queen had in Xenocide and Children that the Hive Queen only had a connection with Ender. After years of trying to connect with him, they still couldn't make sense of his thoughts, I doubt they could get Graff in a shorter time, and Graff was no more weak willed than Ender.
Besides, didn't she say flat out that there was no time to try and snare someone else?
My question would be, while he was in battle school, why did she try and snare HIS mind alone? How could she have known, years before Ender was actually named commander, that he'd be the one leading the invasion?
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Lyrhawn she didn't know. It was Ender's study of the buggers to get inside their heads and think how they thinkg that allowed her to find him. She was reaching out for anyone and Ender unknowingly was reaching out to her. Philotically speaking
Posts: 16 | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Im all for the idea that they chose which ever world was the most logical for the humans to attempt to colonize first. Probably the closest "human freindly" planet.
It would also be logical that Ender would be on it. If they could see into his mind and understand the situation then its logical that he would never go back to Earth. Especially with the civil war/s. So he would either stay on Eros forever or get on a colony ship. The colony ship was the logical choice.
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I read all of the Ender- sequels last week, but... well, I don't get it completely. What if Ender had never come to the "Giant's" planet?
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