posted
I got to thinking late last night about how cool it would be if there was an ansible or two in this world... But then again, I thought, it wouldnt really matter, because the speed of light is soooo much faster than we actually need to communicate efficiently... It seemed like it would be a waste of resources for us to go and build something like that... I dont know though, I am conflicted in my onions because I think it would be really cool... Help? Posts: 93 | Registered: Apr 2008
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posted
Eight minutes from here to the Sun, and another eight for a reply! Shoot, in sixteen minutes I could change my mind three or four times.
Posts: 1167 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Faster than light communication (MUCH faster) I think would be necessary if we ever hope to hold a society together that extends beyond the solar system.
How necessary it would be for multi-stellar planets to remain in the same society, I don't know.
A signal going to just the nearest star and back would be a round trip of in excess of 8 years. Though I recently heard on a History channel program (can't remember which, proabably one of the Universe series) that SETI determined that beyond a couple light years, radio signals just degrade into noise. So, even the slow method of communication might not be viable.
EDIT: I chuckle every time I see you say "onions". Posts: 1080 | Registered: Apr 2006
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Haha... Its a wonderful play on the word opinion and its just fun to write! But seriously, I didnt know that radio waves just deteriorate into noise at any range... I always saw them as a sorf of infinite kind of thing... Almost like light, but I suppose light deteriorates too...
Posts: 93 | Registered: Apr 2008
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posted
an ansible would be a useful thing even within our own solar system. Think about how the rovers on Mars operate. there is something like an 8 minute time lag between signal sent to signal received. Because of this they can't just drive the rovers anywhere, but must rely on the rovers to follow instructions. With an ansible, they could literally use it to explore real-time. Other possibilities open up, imagine putting a UAV on Mars. It wouldn't be possible now because the pilot couldn't react to events, but with an ansible it could be piloted from anywhere, just like we do on earth.
As for other uses, it would make isolationism on other planets less extreme. hook up your internet connection to the ansible and you could interact with your friends and family in real time through a 2nd life type of interface. Sending colonies out just to our own planets would no longer require such a painful seperation.
sadly the ansible isn't real, so were going to have to work through these trials on our own, assuming we ever do get off this rock.
Posts: 197 | Registered: Jan 2007
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Another thing about the ansible...I'm pretty sure it doesn't rely on line of sight. We would be forever free of the use of Satellites to communicate around the globe.
Posts: 796 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Good point line of site isn't an issue, since location REALLY doesn't matter.
Now this would have to assume Starways Congress doesn't limit the number and use of them to the government and military.
In the books Ansible time was extremely expensive. Since location doesn't matter, using an ansible to call Europe or Lusitania would theoretically cost the same. On second thought the ansible companies could tack on surcharges for delivery and maintenance of the ansible and related equipment to the colonies, so perhaps that's why its so expensive. Not to mention Starways Congress adding a little known tax to pay for the second Bugger War that's been over for 300 years. Posts: 197 | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Sean Monahan: How necessary it would be for multi-stellar planets to remain in the same society, I don't know.
Now that I think about it, I think this would be very necessary. With light speed communications, interstellar messages would be on a round trip of 10's, 100's, 1000's, 10's of thousands of years, depending where we go and settle. Separate societies would be very much isolated. And I can't help but think about some of the details I read in Guns, Germs, and Steel about societies on just a single planet that were isolated for long periods of time, then eventually encountered each other with disasterous results.
Posts: 1080 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
There is also the problem that we have the annoying habbit of needing water and oxygen and such things... That kinda cuts out Mars... They say there might be water under the surface, but who wants to dig for a drink of water! Plus no atmosphere and lack of gravity would make us deteriorate into a completely different species depending on the planet we lived on... Dont ya think? Posts: 93 | Registered: Apr 2008
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posted
That is true... But through miles of frozen iron you would probably develop a very varatious thirst in deed... It would kind of defeat the purpose of digging in the hot martian sun...
Posts: 93 | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Clandestineguitarplayer: That is true... But through miles of frozen iron you would probably develop a very varatious thirst in deed... It would kind of defeat the purpose of digging in the hot martian sun...
you mean cold martian sun, I'm sure. Mars never warms up.
Posts: 197 | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
Mars does have an atmosphere that if properly adapted could support human life. It also has gravity similar to earths. The problem I would most worry about would be that Mars is tectonicaly dead so that energy from geothemal capture is unlikely. Also the tidal forces from the moons deforms the surface much more so than here. Mars is also still capturing one of its moons which means eventually the moon will merge with the planet. No problem for visitors but colonists on the otherhand...
Posts: 11 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Thats in theory true, but by the time a moon struck a planet you would probably see it coming and move to some other planet in the galaxy...
Posts: 93 | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:Originally posted by IcedFalcon: Mars does have an atmosphere that if properly adapted could support human life. It also has gravity similar to earths. The problem I would most worry about would be that Mars is tectonicaly dead so that energy from geothemal capture is unlikely. Also the tidal forces from the moons deforms the surface much more so than here. Mars is also still capturing one of its moons which means eventually the moon will merge with the planet. No problem for visitors but colonists on the otherhand...
The problem with Mars is that it's small.
If it were a bit bigger, it could have been very much like Earth, and War of the Worlds might not be as far-fetched.
Keep in mind that although Mars might have water, does have soil, and its surface temperature during summer at the equator can reach 50 degrees Farenheight, it can't support life on its own because it has not strong magnetic field. Therefore, radiation constantly bomboards the surface, making it inhospitable, and much of its atmosphere has been blown away. If it were bigger, its core would not have cooled yet and its magnetic field would protect its air and ground. And with an atmosphere keeping in the heat, you could have a fairly temperate (by North Dakota standards) climate and an atmosphere thick enough to breathe... once you get the algae colonies to convert the CO2. Also, keep in mind that there is no surface water because there is no thick atmosphere: in such thin air, water either instantly freezes or evaporates.
If someone figured out how to blow up Mars' core and get the magma going, or simply erect a Star Wars-esque shield generator, then release the oxygen in the soil, he could terraform Mars without too much trouble.
Posts: 1029 | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
Here is a thought completely off the existing topic, though related to ansibles. It seems to me that the ansibles in the Ender/Shadow series are the key to Jane eventually being able to implement faster than light travel.
They establish that 'something' can move at near infinite speed, as I recall the ansibles are made up of mating pairs of energy particles. Whatever happens to one particle instantly happens to the other particle regardless of the distance between them. By effectively modulating these ansible particles, information can be transfer to the mating particle and deciphered by the machine controlling that ansible.
That establishes the link to faster than light. For 3,000 years they used this link that they could manipulate but didn't understand. Keep in mind that we don't really understand electricity even though we can use it.
By realizing that the ansibles were tied to an THE source of all essential life-energy on earth (actually, all life-energy or essence in the known universe) they were able to conclude that if it was possible to reconnect with that source essence (the Outside) they could realize faster than light travel.
I was recently reading that String Theory says, greatly summarized, that the most elemental particles (strings) exist in 11 dimensions. Apparently, there is a discrepancy between the actual physical universe and the theortical physical universe. It seems that theoritically, there is not enough matter or energy in the universe to account for its existance. Consequently we have theories like Dark Matter and Dark Energy, and these elemental strings that exist partly in other dimensions.
That means if we can understand Dark Matter and/or Dark Energy, or if we can find ways to exploit Strings in other dimensions, we might be able to do what Ender and Jane did.
Instantaneous travel might actually be a reality -- Star Trek transporters, Dr. Who Transmat boxes, ...JANE!
Hey... it could happen.
But, it brings up the same problems here on earth that I see Peter, Miro, and Jane now facing. Who makes the money, who controls it?????
Janes seems to have a relatively energy free means of travel. If she can get help in expanding faster than light travel(FTLT) to commercial levels, it is the dawn of a great new age. But again, who is going to control who has access, who is going to control the money involved? Certainly for those with access to commercial FTLT are going to have a huge economic advantage over those who don't. Tons of money can be made. If people are making Tons of money off of Janes efforts, the it seems reasonable that Jane gets a share...or somebody gets a share in return for the economic advantage.
posted
Which is why Peter has suddenly become the most powerful person on the Galaxy. The Starways Congress has no way to control Jane since Jane is a Sentient being. Starways Congress used to control the sole means of travel between the stars. I can see Peter presented a list of crimes the Starways Congress has committed, the almost destruction of a colony, the changes on Path, corruption on a large scale. Then he can offer better way. Effectively a revolution could happen over night and they would be powerless to stop it.
On Peter's side he has the Hive Queen and thus a species able to make an interstellar capable warfleet with a potentially far vaster pool of planets to draw resources from.
With all of these advantages I'd be sorely disappointed if Peter didn't become Hegemon.
Posts: 796 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Wowbagger, that is exactly why I am so eager to read 'Shadows in Flight'. Of course, I'm assuming 'Shadows in Flight' is essentially Peter meets the Beanie Babies.
We think the Ender Sage ended with resolution, everybody was happy, all the big problems were solved, all the big disasters were averted.
But, as you said, Peter has made himself the most powerful man in the Hundred Planets and beyond. Those currently in power, will not give up that power easily, and I see that as a huge conflict in the next books. I see the battle over who owns, who controls, and who profits from Faster than Light Travel as huge.
Star Congress HAS TO see Peter as an immense threat. He has already outsmarted Starways battle fleet. He has already irrevocably demonstrated Faster than Light Travel. I think it will become quickly known that the 'piggies' are a smart capable species that is growing rapidly outside the Hundred Planets. It will also become quickly known that Peter has a fond association with a species(The Formics), long thought dead, who has a known propensity to war and to war very effectively.
To Starway's Congress, Peter is the most deadly and dangerous man in the universe, and he must either be tamed or conquered. Yet...how do you tame or conquer someone who has such a massive advantage over you?
I suspect by stealth and trickery.
I suspect the will lure Peter and Wang Mu into a meeting at Star Congress, and try to negotiate, which will fail, then try to capture, which will massively fail in it's spectacular arrogance.
Keep in mind that Peter also has Jane on his side, and Jane has already demonstrated power beyond all power. She can shut down communication, she can shut down all commerce and trade. She can silence the entire Hundred Worlds in a blink, and it will take the Hundred Worlds decades to respond.
Like I said, to the petty bureaucrats running the Hundred Worlds, Peter has made himself the most powerful and dangerous man in the universe. A man like that simply can not be allowed.
I see so many story lines here; all of which are fascinating beyond measure. I see a whole new world of adventure available to Peter that makes Ender's efforts seem trivial by comparison.
Though, of course, Ender's effort certainly were not trivia in his time and place in history. But we are now 3,000 years in the future; Ender is like Alexander or Ceasar, an interesting historical story, but not much relevant. And certainly Ender was never perceived as the immense threat that Peter is certainly preceived as.
Some may have thought the end of the Ender Sage could be summarized as everyone lives happily ever after, but for me, the end of the story spells Trouble with a capital 'T'.
posted
This is my onion, and I wont deny that the wheels were started by Mr. Bluewizard here. I think that starways congress will give the impression that they are rolling over for peter, and then they will get peter, miro, val/jane and han tzu all in a room and somehow neutralize Jane. In her last moments of control she sends her friends back to Lusitania and then there is a war declared against the 'rebels' as congress will call them and before too long, peter rallies the newfound planets and, possibly, the descoladors to his side of the war, and Formics, Piggies, Humans, and whatever the heck these other people are will gather together to try and rescue Jane, and defend themselves against the, now empireish, starways congress. Congress exploits Jane's abilities by drugging her and controlling her, there is a huge advantage given to them, all hope is lost, then comes Beans' brilliant babies in the hour of dispair, they figure out the link to the outside, (or already have during their daddy and me time) and help fight the war, there are a series of incredibly detailed battles through, 'The Outside' and then before too long there will be a loophole of some sort and they will rescue Jane, bring the new evil emperor to his knees, I'm guessing Randy's son and then there will be all sorts of interesting details and all this will happen in.... 3 books...
posted
Doubtful that Randy's son will be alive 3,000 years from when he was born. I think that is a completely different story.
However, to an extent, there are some possibilities in what you said, but you should remember this. Jane has gotten much more complicated. Once Jane was merely floating in the ansible web; she was pure abstaction. Then she expanded herself into the mother trees. Now not only is there the abstract Jane, but there is the physical Jane that exists in the duplicate Valentine body that Ender created.
Having physical form makes Jane much more vulnerable. When she was purely abstract, she simply needed a place to store her essential 'Self'. She found that in a combination of hidden computers and in the mother trees.
However, if they have the physical Jane, Miro's wife, then they certainly have some power over her IF, and this is a big 'if', they can separate physical Jane from abstract Jane. As long as abstract Jane has power and memory space, she can transport physical Jane out of any danger. But again, if they can separate the two, say by putting physical Jane in a shielded room, then they can make abstract Jane bow to their will.
It really is a nice twist on the plot, and means that Peter is going to have to marshal all his skill and cunning to get Jane back.
As I learn in the Harry Potter discussion groups, I've got great ideas for the next story, but sadly, I'm never more than right on a very small aspect of what I predict. We could be way off base here in our speculation, but, none the less, I think it shows the tremendous story potential for the continuation of the New!Peter story.
posted
i doubt that starways congress would do something horrble like drugging a littl girljust to control ftlt but think that peter will definetly use this to control starways congress but did everyone foget about the beanlings superhyperintelligentgiants these guyss will do something about the descoladores who probably will SAVE BEAN!!!!!!!!!! (hopefully) he has a genetic alteration and the descoladores are masters of the genome
Posts: 1574 | Registered: May 2008
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