posted
I have a few issues with this book. first, let me point out the discrepancies I found. NOTE: This post might contain spoilers.
How can CPT Graff be a captain when John Paul is 5 years old, then be younger than Mazer Rackam (who is the oldest one Ender ever met and who is about 40 years old)? According to my calculations, not only would he be at least 50 years old but he would've been higher in rank, having lived about 27 years as a Captain.
The other discrepancy is who accompanied Ender in the final battle. None of the Toon Leaders are the same as with Ender's Game or all of the Shadow series books except Bean or Shen. Also, Bean was referred to in this version of Ender's Game as having gone to pre-school, which is also a discrepancy.
My suggestions: I thought this book should be two seperate books- one for John Paul and Theresa's relationship all up to when they became parents, and one starting with the end of Ender's Game, up into great depth on Jane's existence.
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posted
The Ender's Game story published in First Meetings is actually the original short story, the one that the novel was later based on. That is why it doesn't fit with the rest of the series. Quite a few things changed in the transition between short story and full-length novel.
As for Graff, I've basically given up on trying to get any continuity out of his life story. It makes my brain hurt. Posts: 973 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
crash, I figured as much about the Ender's Game short story, and noticed many little differences that didn't really bother me much, but if you were about to put an old short story into the conglomerate of stories that resulted from it, wouldn't you make those annoying little changes that would make everything all better before publishing the book?
The Graff issues are also fixable, in fact everything is easily fisxable, I just wondered why they weren't fixed before being published. Thankyou for your post, since it proves to me I'm not going crazy. At least someone else out there has noticed the discrepancies with this book, and the character of Graff.
Posts: 135 | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by beleaguered: wouldn't you make those annoying little changes that would make everything all better before publishing the book?
NO!!! The whole point was for the many Ender fans who had never seen the original short to have a chance to do so. Not to change it until it fit neatly into the evolved series.
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posted
I'm pretty sure that Mazer was 50-60. It seems highly unlikely that a 40 year old was the oldest person that Ender encountered during his training.
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posted
He was born the long ago but his age was... reduced.... due to near-light-speed travel.
There are a few discrepancies between the Ender series and the Shadow series, but all of them are, in my opinion, both trivial and unavoidable. Obviously OSC did not have the Bean of the Shadow series in mind when he wrote Ender's Game, so he either had to allow a few minor things to contradict, or completely alter the story he wanted to tell.
posted
its like OSC said in EIE. a lot more discrepencies and inconsistencies come up with each new book the writes. with a universes that big it is all but unavoidable especially since it is predominantly managed by one man. look at the star wars and star trek universes, how many people and resources are used to keep the canons of those massive franchises in check so the picky fans (I like to find all the inconsistencies in stories and try posit solutions((or complain to the author)). but it is impossible to catch them all. the Graff time line inconsistency never dawned on me until I read Ender in Exile. he was a captain in The Polish Boy, and therefore probably at least in his thirties, and a colonel in the ender series, presumably in his early fifties, and then lives all through the shadow years and even outlives peter. part of that time he was using stasis to lengthen his life and that explains some of it, but while he was administrator at battle school he probably did not need to be promoted. note that OSC said i EIE that future editions of enders game would have a rewritten last chapter, and that any inconsistencies that remain are in the historical accounts in the ender verse that are used by the unknown hypothetical narrator telling the story
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Rivka, I get that, and didn't think of it that way. I hadn't known about Ender's Game until just a few years ago. Had I known from his original works, maybe I'd be annoyed with his latest works, or the published novel. Anyway, the minor inconsistancies such as what's in the short story of Ender's Game are digestible.
Neo, Check it out, Ender says Mazer's the oldest man he's met at age 40.
As for the Graff age thing- I haven't even read EIE yet (haven't gotten a copy yet), but it sounds like there are some serious discrepancies. Maybe he's tapped into the fountain of youth. . .
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Neo, Check it out, Ender says Mazer's the oldest man he's met at age 40.
Are we talking about in the novel or the short story? I could swear that he's said to be older than 40 in the novel. I keep forgeting to check when I'm home.
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Aren't they one in the same? I heard he used the original short story version for the novel First Meetings. Either way, it's in the Novel First Meetings that I read the line about his age. I'll try to remember to bring the book into the office tomorrow so I can quote it properly.
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posted
I haven't ever actually read the short story of enders game only the novel version even though I have first meetings. for some reason it never interested to me. sort of like reading manuscripts or rough drafts , some people like to read them some people don't want but the end result minor spoiler Graff goes into stasis for ten months out of the year . this allowed him to outlive Peter, this explains the discrepancies during the shadow series, it still is odd though that he was a captain in polish boy, but like I said he probably turned down promotions while in battle school, he wanted to be court martialed after the formic war so he could be "punished " by being shipped off to be Colmin( even though he was not convicted) which was his desired position from the start. if he was too high of rank it would have caused a bigger scandal and warranted a bigger punishment, possbly not allowing him to be colmin.
Posts: 26 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by beleaguered: Aren't they one in the same? I heard he used the original short story version for the novel First Meetings. Either way, it's in the Novel First Meetings that I read the line about his age. I'll try to remember to bring the book into the office tomorrow so I can quote it properly.
As others have said, they're not the same. They're not meant to be. Just as when the movie is (eventually) made it will no doubt deviate from both the novel and short story in some ways. Anyway, here's the line from the novel:
quote:"He looked to be about sixty, by far the oldest man Ender had seen on Eros."
And in the short story:
quote:"Mazer was at least forty, which made him the oldest man Ender had ever seen up close."
However, the novel is canon.
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posted
Neo, Are you referring to the novel as the novel of First Meetings, or the novel as in the novel Ender's Game? In First Meetings, on pages 135 and 136 is the second quote you mentioned:
quote: "Mazer was at least forty, which made him the oldest man Ender had ever seen up close."
When I said aren't the novel and short story the same- I referred to the novel First Meetings. I'm certain this is where we are mixing things up here. When I was referring to discrepancies with First Meetings, I wasn't debating the existences and differences with the original short story Ender's Game, since I was scarcely familiar with its existence and certainly hadn't read it. I was merely pointing out the discrepancies within the novel First Meetings compared with the Ender Universe as I know it. I hope this clears things up.
I take it your first mentioned quote was taken from the novel Ender's Game? I wasn't debating that, since I was pretty certain the novel Ender's Game has many discrepancies with the short story. I was pointing out Mazer's age in the novel First Meetings to show a serious discrepancy with Graff's age for both the Polish Boy, and as it relates to the rest of the Ender Universe.
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posted
Ah, miscomunication. "First Meetings" isn't really a novel, but a collection of short stories. The "Ender's Game" story in "First Meetings" is the original short story. When I referred to the novel I meant the full length novel published in 1985 which we're all familiar with.
The "Ender's Game" story is "First Meetings" is not meant to be in the same continuity as the other stories in that volume. I believe that it's included in the collection simply because most fans of the novel had probably never had a chance to read it before. (I hadn't)
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I hadn't read it either, and yes, chalk this up to good old fashioned miscomunication. Glad we could clear that up.
Posts: 135 | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by beleaguered: wouldn't you make those annoying little changes that would make everything all better before publishing the book?
NO!!! The whole point was for the many Ender fans who had never seen the original short to have a chance to do so. Not to change it until it fit neatly into the evolved series.
I agree entirely with rivka!! The discrepancies are part of the story, I would not want them to have been edited at all. I loved the chance to read the original story, and editing it would have destroyed that originality. If OSC had edited it, he may as well have just written it later-- after EG. It would undermine the value of the story to adapt it just so it would fit in with his later novels.
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posted
It's funny, some discrepancies in Ender's character are explained by reading the short story. Didn't anyone else think that Ender's sudden character shift when he received his own army was odd? It doesn't quite mesh with the character that OSC had built up to that point. When I read the short story, it all clicked into place. OSC had a different vision of Ender's character when he wrote Ender's Game *the novel*. The short story begins with Ender training his new army, and that section of the short story is pretty well plopped into the novel. It is very very similar, even with the same dialogue. So here's the Ender character from the short story suddenly superceding the Ender character from the novel!
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quote:Originally posted by HeatherD: It's funny, some discrepancies in Ender's character are explained by reading the short story. Didn't anyone else think that Ender's sudden character shift when he received his own army was odd? It doesn't quite mesh with the character that OSC had built up to that point.
I thought that was the point. Ender began acting like the commanders that he hated, and even realized it himself. It's like how when some people become parents they find themselves doing things that they hated their own parents doing. Or in teachers college, they would always warn us that many teachers end up teaching their students the way they were taught (which wasn't always the best way), rather than the way they are taught to teach.
When people find themselves in a new position and don't really know how to act, they often emulate others who they have observed in such a position, even if they did a less than stellar job.
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posted
I think that's the angle OSC was going for to explain why he acted the way he did. Of course he set it up that way with Ender being singled out on the shuttle. But if he hadn't started with the short story, and Ender's character began like it did in the novel, I bet that scene would have been different.
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posted
Its been bothering me since I read First Meetings as well, but I suggest that we all stop trying to second guess Hyrum Graff. And pray to him and his immortality.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
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I think we need to understand that OSC didn't plan the Enderverse as a series the way J.K.Rowling did.
He wrote a short story in 1979, not thinking it would get much attention. When is did, years later, he wanted to expand or re-imagine the story as a full length novel, and that required some modifications.
Yet, when he planned the "Ender's Game" novel, I don't think he was expecting IT to become a classic. So, at that time, he hadn't planned "Ender's Shadow", nor the rest of the Ender series nor the rest of the Shadow series.
When a series is built piece-meal like this, there are bound to be inconsistencies.
J.K.Rowling started writing Harry Potter knowing there would be sever books in the series and have done years of research on the story, and additionally having outlines of the plot of all six books.
Again, that is not how the Ender and Shadow series came about. Each book was thought to be the last, until interest built to the point where the universe demanded to be expanded, so it was.
Then circumstances demanded that it be expanded again and again, so it was, and on and on, until we have what we have now.
But keep in mind that circumstances are still demanding more, resulting in further expansion in the form of "Ender in Exile" and the soon (hopefully) to be "Shadows in Flight".
Even then the universe might not be fully resolved. New!Peter and Wang Mu, along with Jame, could allow the series to continue for many more books.
But, the central point is, when you start writing a series and can see it in its entirety, it is easy to keep in consistent.
But when the series and the universe, in a sense, are growing against its will, consistencies can creep in very easily.
So, within reasonable limits, none of the stories HAVE to be consistent. Again, within reasonable limits. The discrepancies in the Shadow series can be explained by perspective. No two people telling the same story tell it exactly the same way. They remember different things, different things are more important to one character than the other. So, in real life, inconsistencies do arise, that's part of life.
Also, keep in mind the authorial time span of these stories. The original was written in 1979, and now 30 year have past and the series still isn't done. It is extremely difficult to remember facts across a 30 year time span.
So, the inconsistencies exist, because, in a sense, each story stands on its own. Each story is an independent story set in the Ender-verse. They don't require prefect consistency.
posted
OSC doesn't do numbers and is never consistent across books. For a good time, count the number of kids Val has in Speaker and Xenocide. She lost two.
Posts: 1757 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by theamazeeaz: OSC doesn't do numbers and is never consistent across books. For a good time, count the number of kids Val has in Speaker and Xenocide. She lost two.
Yeah, IIRC, she actually lost those two just over the course of Speaker--the chapter summarizing her life mentions five, and by the end of the book she tells Ender she has three. One of the lost ones was actually named, too.
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