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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Discussions About Orson Scott Card » Ender vs. Bean (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Ender vs. Bean
Nita
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Which series do you like better?

And, who do you like better: Ender or Bean?

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mr_porteiro_head
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No.
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Nick
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MPH, be nice. [Wink]

Seriously, though, I think the Ender books are the better series, but it usually appeals to an older crowd. The Shadow books are often more liked by younger kids.

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Sobenz
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I enjoyed the Ender series far more than the Shadow/Bean series. There were a whole ton of small things in the Shadow series that just didn't jive with me correctly. It Hegemon and Puppets also seemed a little fluffed to make 'em fit into two books, IMO.

I also enjoyed Ender's psychological discussions over Shadow's gene discussions.

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cRaZy ToM
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shadow...
im still reading SFTD but its a SLOW read copmpared to the bean series....
the Military Tactics spoken abotu in shadow books r amazingly well written

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Kabederlin
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They all have different qualities. I liked both because a philisophical and militaristic person.
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mr_porteiro_head
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OK, I'll answer. I like Ender's Game/Speaker for the Dead best of all. I like Xenocide/Children of the Mind least of all. The Bean books lie inbetween.
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Synesthesia
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I like the Ender series better... By the time I got halfway to the last Bean book I was rather frustrated and annoyed.
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St. Yogi
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I like the Ender series better. I think Speaker for the Dead is one of the greatest books ever and I also like Xenocide, but I don't like Children of the Mind that much.

I like Ender more. Bean can be a real bastard sometimes.

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Aeroth
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The Ender book and the Speaker Trilogy for me. Speaker for The Dead was AMAZING, Xenocide was the almost-perfect middle book, and Children of the Mind brought the series to a satisfying finish.

However, I think Bean's the cooler and more interesting character.

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mr_porteiro_head
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I have a personal beef against Xenocide. When I read it, Children of the Mind had not been written yet. I was so annoyed at the ending. "This isn't a book! It's only half of one!"
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gwan
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As I have said in the past I love the shadow mainly because of Bean. But I hated Shadow puppets. Shadow of the Hegemon was my favorite and then probably Speaker for the dead.
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Nick
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quote:
Children of the Mind brought the series to a satisfying finish.
Not for me. I wanted to know what happened to the descoladores. [Frown]
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Lupus
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I prefer the Ender books, though I did enjoy the shadow books as well. I think that was partly because I liked ender more than bean. I also felt the Ender books were deeper. I thought Jane was a cool feature of the Ender books as well.
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Sadok Jijike
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The thing that authors do is always keep you wanting more..
If you really want to know what happens to the descoladores.. Make your own story.

And

I DON'T KNOW

The comment about young people like Bean better isn't all true. I think my favorite is Enders Game but then Speaker. But its hard to choose... they are my most favorite books ever.

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Kabederlin
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No statistic ever placed will ever bee 100% true, Sadok
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Da_Goat
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quote:
OK, I'll answer. I like Ender's Game/Speaker for the Dead best of all. I like Xenocide/Children of the Mind least of all. The Bean books lie inbetween.
Hey, me too! Let's start a clique!
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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
If you really want to know what happens to the descoladores.. Make your own story.
Unfortunately, copyright laws being what they are, you are not allowed to do that and share it with others. [Frown]

[ May 26, 2004, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]

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Da_Goat
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Unless you have express permission, but OSC has already said he won't give any.
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Angelina
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You really aren't allowed to make that up and share it with others even if no one is charging anything and it's just for fun? What about fan fiction and stuff like that?
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Nick
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You'll see why fanfictions are damaging to an author's work in this pweb thread. [Smile]
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Farmgirl
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I like the Bean books better, but I can't put my finger on why...

..perhaps it is only that they were more-recently read in my mind, so the ideas are fresh in my memory, which makes me believe I like them better.

I'll go back and read the Ender series again and see if I feel the same way.

Farmgirl

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St. Yogi
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I liked Ender's Shadow better the first time I read it, but I think that's just because I got to hang out in the Battle School again [Smile]
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Angelina
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Nick,

I see the reasoning now for the decision against fan fiction. I also liked that one guy's comment; America doesn't need another excuse to be any less original. Very very true. I'm also glad you pointed that out because I never knew that site existed [Wink]

Angie

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Kabederlin
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Anyone who actually lets fanfiction damage the original authors work is kind of moronic, don;t you think. It's obvious, because of quality and other factors, that the true author didn't write it. That should be the end of the story, case closed. There's no harm in thinking of your own ending to a story, as long as you specify that it is YOUR own ending, and not in any way connected to the views of the author. That is to say it's not sanctioned by the author either. If anything I'd say an author would want people to show so much intrest in his work that they wrote their own side stories off of it. Isn't that what that whole Battle School forum is for?

Fan fiction is exactly that. The readers of it are the only people who ruin the true story. Saying it's illegal to share a version of a story is like saying it's illegal to make your own music videos from your favorite songs, which they do at numerous theme parks and people do it on computers all the time. You just have to give credit where credit is due and make sure that people realize it's fan fiction.

I can't honestly see someone refusing to buy one of Card's new novels because they read some fanfics set in the universe Card created. The whole scenario with the lemonade that one person said on the pweb thread. Those three scenarios were intentionally there to HARM the lemonade sellers profit. Fanfiction is more like a person coming over and helping Card make the lemonade for the pleasure of it, asking no pay.

EDIT: For the record I don't read fanfiction. Just being a devil's advocate in this argument.

[ May 26, 2004, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: Kabederlin ]

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mr_porteiro_head
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I have not read much fanfic in my life, but it bugs me that I don't have the option of reading Ender/Bean fanfic.
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Ryuko
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For the record, here is my two cents.

I can understand an author not wanting to see any fanfiction made about their series. It would bother me to know that people had my characters out there doing weird stuff that I didn't say they could do.

But I can also, being an on-and-off fanfic author myself, understand the wish to use characters from another person's universe as if they were your own. Sometimes you have a desire to continue the story, especially if it hasn't been continued at all, or won't be. Sometimes you feel the need the bridge the gaps in the narrative. I don't think it's fair to call the author's unimaginitive. Especially since many of them are young and inexperienced. I did a lot of my learning experiences writing fanfic, and I wouldn't write as well as I do now if I hadn't experimented with them. I admit, I did and do lack in some areas, but that's something I 'll have to work through myself.

That said, the author's wishes are tantamount. If people want to write fanfic, they pretty much can, as long as they're not trying to pass it off as the author's work, as long as they're not going beyond the author's wishes by posting it in public. There is very little the author can do to stop them. But true fans would not go against the author's wishes.

My fandom happens to be based in Japan, where, not only do the authors generally not mind fanfic, it is legal to sell comics with characters who are not your own. Copyright law is very different there. So I'm off scott free. YAY!

Now time for bed...

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Lindsay
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Ender.
I cared for Bean, but I wanted to know Ender. Actually to be more precise, I wanted him to know me, wanted to be important to him.

The Shadow books had too much politics for me. I prefer the "regular life" plots of speaker and xeno to the war and politics of the shadow series.

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Tome
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quote:
Seriously, though, I think the Ender books are the better series, but it usually appeals to an older crowd. The Shadow books are often more liked by younger kids.
Not true. I started reading this series not even a year ago (November, I think) and I have read through Shadow Puppets, and I like the Ender series more. Why? I like the character of Ender more, for one thing. Not to mention the fact that the Ender Quartet had a lot more things going on. New species, Jane, Hive Queen, Descolada, Lustiana Fleet. The odds just seemed so stacked in that series, making it more interesting (to me)
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Nick
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Do you speak for all younger kids Tome? I'm guessing you're younger because your post seems to empathize with them.

I can't see why your post refutes what I said.

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Anthro
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I read the Ender series when I was fairly young, and it blew my mind open. Seriously.

Most of what I'd read up to then was just a narrative, not a story. There were so many layers to the Ender books, and I think as I was reading the series, my mind sort of evolved into something closer to what it is now. After looking at Lusitania, I saw poetic beauty in nearly everything.

To me, the Shadow series was a fun read, but it was mostly just a narrative. Only bits of story.

I never liked Ender that much, actually. He felt like such a passive character. I prefer the younger generation--Wang Mu, (New) Peter, Jane, Miro--they weren't afraid to stick their hands into the weave of the universe and give it a good tug.

Oh, and Olhado is one of my favorite characters of all time.

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Nick
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Hm. I would have to say my favorite character of all time is Luet. [Smile]
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Pausanias
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I don't have a favourite. None of the books stood out as being better or worse than any other - they were all excellent, to my mind. Where Ender's Game is a classic, and Xenocide and Children of the Mind broadened Ender's adult character, I find the Bean books fascinating. I choose... not to choose.

Evasion, indecision... not bad for a first post, don't you think?

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Tome
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quote:
read the Ender series when I was fairly young, and it blew my mind open. Seriously.

Most of what I'd read up to then was just a narrative, not a story. There were so many layers to the Ender books, and I think as I was reading the series, my mind sort of evolved into something closer to what it is now. After looking at Lusitania, I saw poetic beauty in nearly everything.


That's exactly what it was like for me.

And, no, I don't speak for every younger person, I speak for myself, and just meant to say that the Ender series didn't always apeal to the older people. And I'm 14, so, yes, I am younger.

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IComeAnon
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I have only read Ender's Game, Shadow of the Hegemon and Shadow Puppets. I barely read halfway through Xenocide before I put it down and refused to read any more. If I were to give an answer based on those three books, Bean, because he is a lot more like me.

Out of those books, I think I liked Shadow of the Hegemon the best. Shadow Puppets was harder to follow (good, because then I can gloat about me getting it and other people not [Wink] just kidding), and I understood the motives behind the actions of characters (good), but I still didn't like the way Petra comes across as a... I don't know, crazed Bean fanatic. Also, the only plausible reason I can see for making Suri falling in love with Virlomi is so that Virlomi has an excuse to get out of Riberao Preto and go to India, and her presence in India is crucial to the story, but the Suri-Virlomi line itself comes up to nothing (unless someone can enlighten me on this?). Oh, but the best thing is, Bean blows Achilles' eye out.

I can imagine the events in Shadow of the Hegemon taking place, but not quite in Shadow Puppets. I do not think that any girl who has spent nine years away from home, around boys, would want her bedroom frilly pink, for one thing [Wink] Petra falling in love with Bean I can understand, but marrying him takes it one step too far (and yet is necesary! Shadow Puppets is such a painful read). Perhaps this is because I think I think like Bean and would not have done what he did, but if I think I think like Bean, I probably don't. For one thing, I don't have Anton's key turned [Wink]

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IComeAnon
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By the way, I'm 14 too. But I hated Xenocide for exactly the reasons stated by Tome: new species, Jane, Lusitania, descolada (although I admit I only read halfway through Xenocide and didn't read Speaker for the Dead, so my opinion is clearly not as objective as it should be). I enjoyed the books I read in the Shadow series much more (Shadow of the Hegemon and Shadow Puppets) because, well, they made me think.
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PresbyGirl
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I like the Ender quartet better... but I also love the Shadow books.

As to the kids liking the Bean books more... I would think a good bit of the political and military stuff would be over their heads a bit.

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IComeAnon
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quote:

As to the kids liking the Bean books more... I would think a good bit of the political and military stuff would be over their heads a bit.

The politics and military stuff - exactly why I like them better.
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Melchior
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Impossible to decide. Each have their strong points, and very few weak ones. The complement each other, don't compete with each other.
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Achilles_de_Flandres
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Out of the companion books (EG and ES) EG. But overall series, S.
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Bokonon
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IMO, it is impossible to enjoy Xenocide or CotM without reading Speaker for the Dead. I say that, thinking that EG/SftD should have been left alone, except for the one chapter in Xenocide of Valentine visiting Olhado's family, which should have been a short story by itself.

The Shadow series, to me, is an example of an author deciding to TELL me something, rather than SHOW me something. Some of the monologues in the Shadow series approach a Lovercraft-esque plateau, in terms of jarring and heavy-handed writing.

-Bok

[ July 12, 2004, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Bokonon ]

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PetraFan
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Oh, Ender over Bean any day.

As for the books, Ender's character seemed to have a natural leadership quality and mad everyone feel like they were on his list.

Bean on the other hand was way more sadistict to be an uplifting character. So, Ender series over Shadow.

Anyway, you feel for Ender more than Bean(even though both are fantastic creations of OSC).

Toodles,

PetraFan

[ July 27, 2004, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: PetraFan ]

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
The Shadow series, to me, is an example of an author deciding to TELL me something, rather than SHOW me something.
It's not surprising that OSC would tell instead of show -- that's how he thinks things should be done.

From Uncle Orson's Writing Class:
quote:
You said: "I made it a point throughout the novel to not tell motivations, but try to show them."

And you did this because ... of those morons who told you "show don't tell"? Because motivation is unshowable. It must be told. (In fact, most things must be told.) The advice "show don't tell" is applicable in only a few situations -- most times, most things, you tell-don't-show. I get so impatient with this idiotic advice that has been plaguing writers for generations.

Motivation is precisely the one thing that cannot be shown. What movies do -- using dialogue or most-obvious-assumed-motive to communicate motive is actually not very good because there are no shades or subtleties and rarely can be (it just takes so darn much screen time!). It's one of the reasons why movies simply aren't very good at subtle motivation, and constantly have to reach for obvious audience sympathies ...

When you are using a POV character, the single most important thing that you must tell the reader is the full purpose of what the character is doing, as soon as the character knows it himself. If you do not, you are cheating, and the audience gets less and less patient with you, until they lose interest because you are not telling them the most important information that people come to stories -- especially fiction -- to receive!



[ July 28, 2004, 02:18 AM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]

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Caitlin Strand
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bump cuz this is interesting, and i liked bean. i dunno why... probobly all the different ideas and politics and war and figuring out exactly how bean isnt human and how bean was always a prick and ender went all civilian and weak, and... i could go on and on... Also, Xenocide and children were WAY too long and boring. I liked speaker and Jane rocks too. I have a question. At the end of enders game, they were on a planet. Was there a story about that planet? Did i just miss it? I no it wasnt Lustianna. O, (might as well kill all questions now) was Jane made from battle school's mind game? And why does it seem to me that Bean never really gets the big picture? Poke died and so did Sister Carlotta did too because of his shortsightedness. And Sister Carlotta dieing kinda shot down Bean too. I mean, the 1 time he reaches out, the person he reached out to died... After that, how did he get together with Petra? wow... This got complicated for what started as a bump...

[ August 06, 2004, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: Caitlin Strand ]

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Stratpop
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bump cuz this is interesting, and i liked bean. i dunno why... probobly all the different ideas and politics and war and figuring out exactly how bean isnt human and how bean was always a prick and ender went all civilian and weak, and... i could go on and on... Also, Xenocide and children were WAY too long and boring. I liked speaker and Jane rocks too. I have a question. At the end of enders game, they were on a planet. Was there a story about that planet? Did i just miss it? I no it wasnt Lustianna. O, (might as well kill all questions now) was Jane made from battle school's mind game? And why does it seem to me that Bean never really gets the big picture? Poke died and so did Sister Carlotta did too because of his shortsightedness. And Sister Carlotta dieing kinda shot down Bean too. I mean, the 1 time he reaches out, the person he reached out to died... After that, how did he get together with Petra? wow... This got complicated for what started as a bump...
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Farmgirl
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Stratpop -- did you read "Speaker for the Dead"?? THe book between Ender's Game and Xeonicide?

Farmgirl

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BeansAchilles
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I don't really like the Ender Saga's after the original because I lose interest without war and strategy... J/K... but I will always like the Shadow saga's better because I love Bean's pre-xenocide/petra/finding-out-he-was-human stages... because then he was cold and emotionless just like I always thought of my self ... there is no emotionless face so this will have to do ':I'...

quote:
"Beans Achilles Heel are Feelings"
-me
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BeansAchilles
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I was just wondering if there is anything about Bean FarmGirl doesn't post on before me???
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Anthro
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I liked Children of the Mind and Xenocide because Miro is one of my favorite OSC characters.
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Disney Reporter
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To hard of a choice. I love them both so much. Keep up the awesome work Orson.
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