Baylor coach asked players to imply Dennehy sold drugs, secret tapes show By Danny Robbins Star-Telegram Staff Writer
WACO - Before he resigned as Baylor University's basketball coach, Dave Bliss directed players to provide investigators with false information indicating that slain teammate Patrick Dennehy had paid his tuition by dealing drugs, according to conversations secretly recorded by an assistant coach.
"What we've got to create here is drugs," Bliss said in one of the conversations, which were taped by assistant coach Abar Rouse with a concealed microcassette recorder on July 30 and 31 and Aug. 1.
The tapes also reveal that Bliss knew some players smoked marijuana and that Baylor coaches weren't truthful when they made public statements indicating they had no knowledge of threats allegedly made against Dennehy by Harvey Thomas, the heralded junior-college recruit who arrived in Waco in late spring.
How in the world are two college class basketball players playing for a team and no one wonders how their tuition is being paid?!? Give me a break. I don't know how the President of BU can keep his job. He's either a completely incompetent moron, or he's known all along what was going on. Either way, he shouldn't have the job he does.
quote: Kirk Watson, counsel for the Baylor investigative committee, said the committee members were stunned by what they heard on the tapes.
"These tapes are evidence of a desperate person trying to cover up his activities," Watson said. "It is shocking. But the good news is it failed."
He said, "Clearly, he was encouraging embellishment ... to try to cover himself."
Watson said the committee was determining its next step.
Embellishments? You know the first thing the committee should do? Fire itself and hire an outside investigating committee!!!
quote:"I believe the committee, the recommendation, will be that these tapes be turned over to the proper authorities to determine whether a criminal violation took place," he said.
Ya think? They need to discuss that in committee before acting on it?
quote: Ellis Kidd Sr., whose son played for Bliss, said he was shocked that Bliss would instruct players on what to tell investigators.
"That's very unethical, very unethical practice for a coach to even think about asking a kid something like that," he said. "I just can't hardly believe he would ask someone to do that."
Unethical? Don't you mean illegal?!?
quote: Bliss and others could face both criminal and NCAA penalties in connection with the plan.
Seriously? I wonder if "the committee" will discuss that topic. . .
quote: Speaking to Rouse alone in one of the taped conversations, Bliss indicated that Thomas, the star junior-college recruit, would be willing to lie about Dennehy's activities.
"[Expletive], yeah," Bliss said. "Harvey will throw himself on a grenade. He's the best. That [expletive] will lie when the truth is easier."
Bliss indicated that Thomas' loyalty stemmed from the fact that Baylor coaches publicly said they knew nothing about the player's alleged threats when the matter was raised by Dennehy's friends and family.
"Harvey will do anything," Bliss told Rouse. "And the reason is because we did it for Harvey."
After Rouse responded by saying, "I'm with you," Bliss added: "You know, I mean, we stuck up for ... That's why we're in this jam, we stuck up for Harvey. I said there were no threats, and all these people got ticked at me."
So, Harvey is the one that was worried whether or not others would corroborate the threat story? Why would Harvey be worried about it? Was Harvey the one making the threats? You know, they say Dotson confessed, Dotson says he didn't. I wonder if the recruiter was mixed up in this murder. If Dennehey was going to go public with what was going on at Baylor, Harvey Thomas might have become concerned. Think he "hired" Dotson to kill Dennehey? Think he did it himself and blamed it on Dotson? Is anyone really going to believe anything Dotson says, after running, anyway? A perfect patsy if you ask me. This whole thing makes me sick. I wonder if they will ever find out what really happened. I know it's wild speculation, but I want to know why Thomas lied about whether or not there were threats against Dennehy and why Bliss backed him up on it.
These particular Baptists need to stop playing basketball and start reading their Bibles. :vomitsmilie:
posted
What does this have to do with organized religion, exactly? Because this occurred at a Religious school the religion is somehow implicated?
Posts: 4548 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Yeah, I'm having trouble seeing why the behavior of employees of a college sponsored by a religion is in any way an indictment of the value of that religion, or of religion in general.
Are you suggesting that this would not happen at a secular college, or that something about being Baptist caused these people's behavior?
posted
Jacare, um, yeah. You know, one bad apple and all. (I just love Donny Osmond.)
Kat, what does this have to do with the basketball players? They aren't the ones that set up the illegal scholarship. They aren't the ones that started the conspiracy to lie to the cops and investigating committee. They aren't the ones that began the public smear campaign. It was the employees of the Baptist University. You know, the University that is so much better than regular Universities because of the Christian values and all. Sorry, but if you want to put Jesus front and center of your web page, you ought to hire people who act like Christians are supposed to act. I don't care if your basketball team sucks for all eternity because every other team out there cheats. You school shouldn't. And you damned well shouldn't be hindering police investigations so you can save your own sorry ass. And where the heck was the President of this college. Did no one notice that Dennehy was paying tuition? Did no one qestion why someone of his talent wouldn't be on full scholarship? Even the investigating committee made a horrible word choice (at best) when describing the coach's activities as "embellishments."
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posted
Even so, Kayla, I don't see how this reflects poorly on organized religion. . . can you be more clear on the connection that you see?
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posted
I think this reflects poorly on Baylor because by proclaiming their self-righteousness, they become not only cheats and liar, but hypocrites. But the fact that they're abusing a religion doesn't make the religion itself bad.
This from someone who faced constant abuse from that very religion for two straight years Posts: 2048 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Geoff, I'm having trouble understanding why a religion would sponsor a college and then turn the mind molding over to criminals. Hell, send your kids to prison for that kind of education.
Sorry, but if I spend the extra money to send my kid to a Christian College, I pretty much expect for their closets to be clean. Oh, wait. They never are. They usually have priests and altar boys in there. Along with preachers and mistresses, tax fraud, and lord knows what else.
But of course, it isn't the religion. It's individuals who certainly don't represent the religion. Yeah. Right. It's amazing how not a single employee at that school wondered how they managed to get so many kids on NCAA scholarships. Must have thought it was the Baptist special.
I'm glad they are teaching the kids to be morally straight. God knows, we need them to lead the country and run the corporations. Oh, wait. Yeah, we already have that. Cheney and Enron. Bush and Iraq. Honor among theives, I mean, religion and all.
And no. This isn't a chip. Not the way you think anyway. It pisses me off that we let those bastards into the Big 12 (The Big 8 and the 4 we hate.) I can't think of a state that annoys me more that Texas. (Sorry Kat and all y'all from Texas.)
It also pisses me off that winning is so important, athletes can be felons and still be heros. There is no honor among "sportsmen." They'll do anything to win, as is proven over and over in the daily papers.
So, who am I mad at? The Baptists that support Baylor and then allow employees like the coach to happen. Organized sports for not giving a crap about anything but themselves. Texas for being a constant irritation to me. And Organized religion. For pretending to be holier than thou. Instead of all the prostelytizing, I think they would do well to spend the time checking up on each other.
I vaguely remember Chris Rock doing a comedy bit about watching the news at night and praying that the newest murder suspect wasn't black. "Please don't let him be black." I think that was it. His point, was that a few black guys who were on the news every night were making it harder for the rest of them to walk down the street without everyone being afraid of them. (Making them all look bad.) Well, every time there is another chruch scandal, that's pretty much what I think. Y'all should be cringing. The congregations should be up in arms. Corruption and crime is about people. Not the religion. Just because one parisioner commits a crime, all of them aren't guilty. Unfortunately and too often, the criminal is being sheilded by the church. Rather than holding people to a higher standard, it's a lower standard for "brothers." Talk about your membership benefits.
posted
Well, it wasn't the Baptists per se. I was in California, surrounded by the new franchise churches (Calvary Chapel, Evangelical Free, etc). But it's surprising how willingly the Baptist church has embraced the new doctrinal fads of the born-again Christian movement that was so prevalent out there.
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posted
I nominate Bliss for Scumbag of the Summer. I can't remember the last time I took such an instant loathing to someone. Obviously, what he did violated ethics, common human decency and NCAA regs. I wonder if Bliss will be found guilty of any crimes? It's not obstruction of justice to conspire to lie to the NCAA. Sounds like he did conspire to lie to police investigators. I hope he personally told some lies to investigators, that would be clear-cut.If he ever comes before a jury, he's toast.
Kayla, I have lots of problems with organized religion, but the Baptists would be the first to admit that evil is in the hearts of all men,including all Christians; Bliss just proved them right. Suppose for a moment that he'd never had any serious, publicly known ethics violations. Recently he was truly desperate and thrashed around wildly to try to save his job. Then he comes up with this crazy and evil scheme involving impugning the reputation of a dead man. How exactly is that the fault of Baylor or Baptists in general? Assuming Baylor didn't go along with his any of his hare-brained schemes.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I read your previous post about NCAA scholarship violations in general, and you could certainly hold Baylor to account for that. With regards to college athletes in general, there is an unspoken "don't ask, don't tell" policy regarding NCAA violations. Years ago I worked on the Georgia Tech newspaper the Technique. A free-lance writer for a local magazine gave us all of his notes for a story he was writing involving Tech NCAA violations. His story was killed. So I started reseaching the story. Before I even dug up much, my co-writer told me "I was on my own on this one." He was a former Technique news editor and brother of the current (at the time) news editor. Later I was told that the story would not be printed, the only time I ever heard of such a thing in 4+ years of working at the paper, at least for any newsworthy story. So I gave up on the story in disgust.
posted
I don't know that it can be proved that organized religion breeds corruption.
However, the one thing that is clear about organized religion or any other organization that espouses strong values is that when scandal arises, there's a tendency to protect those who are implicated in the scandal and to disbelieve that so-and-so could do wrong because after all, they're one of the group. Organized religions don't have the best track record in being open and honest about corruption and wrongdoing among the ranks of leadership and prominent members.
The question , of course, is whether organized religions are more prone to this tendency than other organizations (police departments, unions, fraternal organizations, etc.).
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quote:but the Baptists would be the first to admit that evil is in the hearts of all men,including all Christians; Bliss just proved them right.
Yeah, I thought I already acknowledged that.
quote: Suppose for a moment that he'd never had any serious, publicly known ethics violations.
Why are we supposing? Does he have some that I'm unaware of?
I'm still curious to see if Thomas had anything to do with the murder. If he's implicated in anyway, it could really land Bliss in the deep end of the poo.
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quote: I don't know that it can be proved that organized religion breeds corruption.
Not my point. What it breeds is hypocrites. Huge pain in the butt ones that then try to legislate how I should live my life.
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posted
Kayla: Don't judge the whole religion just because one guy at a Christian university decided he wasn't gonna do the right thing. I go to a Christian school and I know a lot of the people merely give lip service to being a Christian. Also Christians make SO many mistakes, just look at the Crusades. If a Christian or a church offends you, forgive them. It's best for everyone
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Kayla, the reason I gave that supposition was if it's true, how was Baylor to know the coach was capable of his evil scheme?
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Right now I still don't think I see your argument Kayla. The college was Church sponsered, and the coach was sponsered by the college and the coach did some truely bad things. But, I don't see how that reflects poorly on organizied religion. I mean, the problem here is the coach, so if we're going to make it religions fault it has to be either: A) Religion made him do those things or B) The Church should've found out about him before he did it.
If you really think it's A, that's a whole 'nother discussion (from this post). If it's B, then you have to assume that they could've found out, which doesn't likely, since, what has he done before that would lead them to think he'd do this?
posted
Yeah, Kayla, I'm with you on the hypocrisy of many (too many) Christians. Fortunately, the hypocrisy seems to be light for most HR Christians. Of course, this is the internet, people are different off-line. But I'm willing to give Christians here the benefit of the doubt. Especially since they're probably in the majority on HR.
[edit to add: I of course am hypocritical some times, though I strive not to be. But I don't claim to have any special relationship with God, nor a guaranteed ticket to Heaven, either. This is what makes some Christians' hypocrisy so irritating.]
Hobbes, yeah. Sorry, but these people are in Texas. You know the state that arrests black people for looking at you the wrong way? But apparently, this particular basketball team either gets more basketball scholarships than every other team in the NCAA, or an extremely talented black player was paying to play for Baylor. Now, everyone from the assistant coaches (who would have had to be in on the scheme, lest someone let it slip he was on an illegal scholarship) to the head of the athletic department (it is his job to oversee things like NCAA rules and such, right?) to the President of the University had to be aware of this (or incredibly incompetent.) I don't understand how such a conspiracy can be overlooked.
I also want to know if the threats Dennehy reported to the coach led to his death. So many people. So much to lose.
posted
Morbo, I agree. The many of the Christians at Hatrack are different than most I've met in real life. Also, many of the LDS members are different than most humans I've met. I like them a lot. I just hate this particular hypocrasy. Of course, coming on the heels of the anti-gay marriage threads didn't help.
And I spent a hour and a half on the phone with my mother-in-law trying to get her to shut her trap and just do what I was telling her to do so she could fix the problem she called me about!
It's my son's first half day of school since last October. I finally get the child out of the house for a couple of hours and I spend it all listening to her talking! At this point and time, I'd like to blame it all on PMS, but I can't. Hmm. . . there must be some other hormonal balance that is screwy somewhere.
posted
I think part of what Kayla is saying (pardon me Kayla for trying to speak for you.) is that Religion Sponsored Corruption corrupts organized religion.
Not Christianity per se. Not the beliefs in God, Jesus, or even the Bible. But the "Church" that sponsored the University, bregged off of the good name of Christianity, should only sponsor good endevours.
The problem isn't that one young man was murdered. It wasn't that this young man broke regulations. It wasn't that his coach tried to cover up these breaches of regulations by lieing, and "Baring false witness" and coercing others to do the same. It wasn't that they were trying to destroy the reputation of a dead man. It wasn't that their is apparent rampant drug use in the system. These are all the faults of individuals.
The problem is that this "Baptist" school and its "Christian" leaders are more concerned now with covering thier backsides, blaming others, and denying the undeniable than they are in doing what is right.
They have not come out admiting thier sins, seeking forgiveness, or even vowing not to let any of this happen again.
The problem is that a Church is a Christian organization. When its leaders succumb to corruption, it stains the whole Church and drives away people like Kayla.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
How sick is the world, though, that it produced me? I wasn't born this way, you know? I used to like people. Theoretically, I still do. You know, "people." Off over that way. That kind of "people." Of course, they are usually people I haven't met yet. Once I get to know them, I'll probably dislike them as much as everyone else. Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Good point, Dan. Baylor seems to be acting like any other organisation in crisis: covering their a**, not confessing their sins and praying for forgiveness. Not exactly Christian behavior.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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m2, you mad today? See, you're still theoretical, so I can still like you. I doubt many people have been as open as I've been about my own faults. You think I don't know it's my problem? You're beginning to annoy me.
posted
Probably more grumpy than mad. There is just something about the way you made this post that made my teeth grind, and I hate it when my teeth grind.
posted
Ah, well, you know, it did take nearly 30 years for dislike to win the battle. Not bad, considering.
Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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I guess my main problem is with your view of how the higher ups were either complicit in the wrong doing or incompetent. Maybe they were just trusting? You know a couple of people conspiring together can screw over an entire system.
I used to work at a place.$200 million an year sales in over 4 states. Three employess took them for over $10 million. How? Because each was in the right spot to cover for the conspiracy of the others. The company had pretty good controls, but the wrong people were in the right place and kept up the facade. Did that make all the managers above them complicit or incompetent? I don't think so.
I agree what the coach did was terrible. But to claim that the President of the University was incompetent becuase he did not know the exact details of the status of one athlete on a campus that probably has hundreds of athletes and thousands of other students seems a bit far fetched. I might exepct more of the AD than the President.
quote:Big 12 presidents so control the conference that it is said that every paper clip is accounted for in the conference office in Dallas. Weiberg doesn't spring for morning doughnuts for the staff without getting presidential approval. It makes sense then that the cost-conscious presidents wouldn't want a scandal-ridden program operating essentially on the dole.
Seems to me if they can account for every paper clip in the conference office, they might have a clue about their own program and players. Are you seriously suggesting that the President of the University doesn't know anything about the only team in his whole school that is bringing in $8 million a year?
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posted
You know, after reading the thread title, I thought this might have been a relatively unbiased discussion over how one man doesn't represent the whole of a group.
I was very very wrong, so I'll bow out.
And don't be sorry Kayla, I'm sure Texans and Christians think as little of you as you do of them.
posted
I'd be disappointed it were any other way BYSOAL.
And you know what? I've yet to hear a Baptist say they are outraged by this. A google search shows that Baptist are often outraged. 2,270 sites worth of Baptists and Outrage, but I don't see much on any Baptists being outraged about what's happening at the largest Baptist University in the world.
Does one man represent the entire religion? No. But does a conspiracy at the largest Baptist University represent a major problem in the religion? I think so. And does silence from the millions of Baptists around the world say much? Yeah, that would be the indictment, there.
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Actually, Texans have no idea what people outside of Texas think of them. It's all jealousy anyway. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Does one man represent the entire religion? No. But does a conspiracy at the largest Baptist University represent a major problem in the religion? I think so. And does silence from the millions of Baptists around the world say much? Yeah, that would be the indictment, there.
Interesting supposition, Kayla. I don't entirely disagree with you.
Of course, if you replaced the word "Baptist," "Christian," or "Texan" in your posts with the word "Palestinian" or "Muslim" you would be savaged unmercifully here.
Luckily for you, you've chosen the group that it's PC to hate.
It's okay to be a bigot as long as the victim of your bigotry is an "organized" Christian religion? Or Texans?
Posts: 524 | Registered: May 2003
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Yeah, Texas in general I dislike. I don't think it's PC to hate Texas, but there you are.
I dislike any organized religion that doesn't have the spine to denounce wrongdoing. I don't care what the brand is. Personally, I think if you get a group of people together and it somehow involves money, somebody's going to end up doing something illegal. You mix religion up in that mix and you eventually get hypocrites who preach one way, and conduct business another. And try to legislate how others live on top of it all.
I don't care if they are Christian, Muslim, Jewish or anything else.
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Except for the Texans. My uncle lives there now. His wife is cool. His kids are official Texans, and are both smarter and way more attractive that he is. So, I have to like Texans, that's all there is to it.
Plus Willie Nelson's from there. I mean, he's named Willie. How bad could he be?
Posts: 524 | Registered: May 2003
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Yeah, well, Texas also gave us GW and Tulia.
quote: I get the sense that there are a lot more people outside of Texas talking about Tulia than there are in Texas. Are we Texans more concerned with state budget battles than basic civil liberties and justice? Why can we mobilize a large protest over going to war with Iraq and not be as concerned about what is happening in our own state? Why do we protest the government's disregard for civil liberties internationally, but not here at home?
Sorry, it's a pet peeve. That and Rwanda. You'll get used to me after a while, I'd think. See, most people here have the sense to not even respond when I'm in a mood like this. (I think the rest think I'm black, so, there you go. )
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