posted
My co-worker known as Weightlifter Bob and myself have gotten into a variety of interesting discussions some of which I've posted on Hatrack in times past. We think completely differently and I enjoy discussing things with him because we do think so differently.
What I have recently learned though is that when I am passionately excited in the heat of my argument, he thinks I am taking it personally and am ready to blow my stack. In his mind the next place the argument would go is to physical blows (of course he couldn't fight with me because I'm a girl). I tried to explain how cerebral it is on my own part, and how half the time I'm making the argument up as I go along, and B.Sing as I go. His response was that then I am lying to him. Something is either true or it isn't. While to me I'm just making up the line of logic I am using as I go along. Every now and then I might toss in something outrageous and expect to be called on it just to make sure everyone is paying attention carefully, but that has nothing to do with truth and lies in my mind. (If I'm not called on the outragous bits, I'll eventually call myself on it.)
I tried to explain a formal debate to him (which I don't really understand either) where they take a statement like, "This house is a sinking ship" and argue over it, completely cerebrally without malice. Unfortunately the only kind of debate he knows is the stuff on TV of the polictical freak show variety.
The only thing I could think of where people were arguing passionately and cerebrally over something that doesn't have a lot of bearing on everyday life that he might understand was Lalo's smiley thread. So I sent the link to him so he could skim it.
The thing is Weightlifter Bob is a genuinely nice guy and I truly like him. I genuinely enjoy our exchange of ideas. But I can't figure out how to tone down my arguing style to be less offensive to him. I know I learned my style from my father, and in college and Hatrack communities it has served me reasonably well.
In this case though I am trying to communicate with some one from a different "planet" as it were. It seems like this communication is actually the more important because it is between two people that are so different. But I'm not sure how to bridge those communication gaps either.
The ironic thing is that he thinks it is because I'm a girl, when in my real-life experience I get responses similar to his (sans the physical violence aspect) more from females than I do from males. He doesn't see how any male of the species can understand me, and doesn't quite believe me when I tell him that Steve has me figured out better than I have myself figured out.
He thinks that Steve and I fight all the time, when we don't. He asked me what attracted me to Steve, and I said the fact that he was an entertaining smart-ass. To him the fact that Steve is a smart-ass means we are constantly arguing, when in fact what it means is that I'm always amused, by Steve's latest outrageous statement. Steve knows they are outrageous, and that I know he knows they are outrageous etc. We do have lots of serious discussions too. Probably why we are still together is because on more serious issues even though we often attack issues from completely different directions we often come up with similar conclusions.
I told Weightlifter Bob that I would never want to be with someone who agreed with me because I would be bored out of my mind. In a strange way I pity Weightlifter Bob because he cannot comprehend the joys of a cerebral relationship. Don't get me wrong, Steve and I have a great physical relationship too, but that wouldn't be enough to keep either one of us faithful.
I wish Weightlifter Bob could somehow understand this, but I don't think he can. He would proably have to change so much to understand it that he wouldn't be himself anymore. The Hatrack get together that I had a blast on, and I felt had great conversation even if some of it was about such silly topics as vaccuum cleaner collections is something that Bob would never be able to enjoy.
posted
Last week I was thinking about starting a thread about how I want to sharpen my arguing skills. But I didn't know how to phrase it so that the seasoned jatraqueros wouldn't think I was trying to mock them. Since they would then answer the mockery seventy fold on my sensitive head.
I would like to point out that if you are making up facts to support your argument, that is lying. But stirring up new points of view that you didn't realize you thought is the point of dialogue. coming up with a hypothetical to test your idea is not lying. Maybe this would be a good place to work with Mr. Lifter. Find out where in the continuum he sees things as lying or not.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Some people see the world as black and white, right and wrong, good and evil. Once it is labeled as such, changing the label requires a large stick and a lot of force.
For others, there is always room for consideration and debate. To the hard liners this seems wishy/washy and weak. To these people the hard liners seem arbitrary and pig headed.
You can teach people how to argue, but changing their entire view on the world is much harder.
It comes down to how they handle a rumor.
Some people automatcially believe it, or disbelieve it.
I put it in my mind as a possibility, then wait for proof one way or the other. Having it in that limbo land of neither yes or no really confuses and angers some people.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
evil celia! (I knew you were going to laugh) Besides I suspect you and Bill are exactly the same!
I don't make up facts. What I do make up as I go along are lines of logic to support whatever idea I'm defending or attacking at the moment. Maybe you could consider me amoral in a way because the side I argue as if the ideas are my own isn't necessarily the one I truly believe. On the other hand some issues I don't care enough about to believe one way or the other but I will still argue for the sake of arguing.
re: beer Weightlifter Bob, doesn't drink, it would interfere with his training regimen. Sometimes I wonder if he is really an engineer.
Also he came in just a minute ago after reading the smiley debate saying. "That woman Lalo, she's nuts!" I began myself. I need to find some of Lalo's adventures with Ticas to send him!
posted
It alldepends on how the person thinks. If the person likes to think up ideas, then he/she's a good arguer. If not, well..too bad.
Posts: 4628 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Banna, Back in the day in high school, I was on the debate team. Junior year I was in charge of teaching Freshman, senior year I was head of the team. There's a lot of techinical aspects of teaching someone how to debate and they are often dependent on what the purpose and setting of the debate is, but the single best instructional technique I've ever found is to make someone argue for the opposite side on issues they believe in. It generally takes a while, but once they can do this honestly, they are generally pretty good at debating in general.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Yes Squicky, this is why I often argue a side I don't believe. The problem is that Weightlifter Bob feels that is disingenuous. But, I can't tell him when I'm taking it just for the sake of argument because then he won't argue his positions as completely.
posted
I gotta say that I wouldn't be very happy arguing with someone who plays devil's advocate without telling me. I would consider that disingenuous outside of a formal debate setting, and I'm hardly the sort who doesn't "get" the zen of arguing for pleasure.
Posts: 2443 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote: the side I argue as if the ideas are my own isn't necessarily the one I truly believe.
Some people just can't understand that. Last year we had to write an essay on certain qualities of Americans based on a essay in our book. Everyone else tried to twist what the author had said to make Americans look better while I found much more support on the other side of the argument. When we were graphing out everyone's evidence people were getting really defensive when I made my points. It took a while to explain that I was writing my own view points, I had simply found more solid arguments on the other side.
Posts: 981 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
As far as playing the devils advocate and being honest with Weightlifter Bob. I should clarify a bit more. Most of the time what I'm doing is arguing about something which I have little personal feeling one way or the other. If you asked me to do a black or white answer, I couldn't my answer would be shades of grey. I'm not deliberately trying to be disingenuous with the guy. With him, because we think so differently, I often find myself halfway into the arguments without realizing exactly how I got there but forced to defend a position (as long as it is defensible.)
For example, not signing the petition in support of the Defense of Marriage Act. My personal reasons for not signing it are both economic and due to my libertarian leanings, which were the first reasons I gave, but to them they weren't enough and there HAD to be a moral v. immoral aspect. So I ended up in that argument without meaning to be there. I gave it my best shot and did pretty well IMO though it was kind of sad how easily I could poke holes in their straw men.
posted
Banna, where were you when I was in high school? Where are the women like you? I need to find one. :lonely:
Posts: 1041 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote: I tried to explain how cerebral it is on my own part, and how half the time I'm making the argument up as I go along, and B.Sing as I go.
I don't know if I would call it lying, per se, but I do agree with him that it's not being up front and, were I debating you and I saw you doing this, I would think that you weren't really interested in finding a solution to the problem, weren't interested in what I was saying, rather than just wanking--ie, argument for its own sake, or argument as some kind of competition where someone must win and lose and that you were afraid to 'lose'. That is, it might appear that if you never concede a person's point, and are constantly searching for new ways to 'defeat it' or to find ways that it is wrong, then it would seem to indicate that you are not interested in a resolution, or admitting when you are wrong, but are more interested in arguing and, furthermore, were fixed in your beliefs, so what's the point in talking to you, anyway? It would be like arguing religion with a true believer. You realize they're not interested in listening to you, just converting you to their viewpoint.
I recognize where you are coming from. If you like argument for argument's sake, that's fine. I happen to agree with your friend that it's purposeless. It's the equivalent of 'tastes great!'--'less filling!'.
I suspect this is probably one of those 'there are two types of people in the world' things, where you either like it or you don't. I think that you see this kind of debate a lot more over on Ornery, where people just spend months saying the same things over and over again, not listening to each other, just looking for new and exciting ways to say what they have to say. The points never change.
This is actually something that's been on my mind lately. Why do I like Hatrack more than Ornery? (Not to say that I don't enjoy reading what people have to say on Ornery.) I do think it's because I get the impession that people are more interested in hearing what you have to say over here. I know since I"ve been on the forum, I've lost a lot of my prejudice towards certain positions. Not to say that I agree with them, but I understand why people believe them and why they find them admirable. I can see myself believing those things, if I were willing to put the same goals they were at the top of the line of my priorities. So, I respect them and, more, have affection for people with those arguments.
I'm not saying that you don't. I don't dislike having conversations with you. I certainly don't have you pegged as a zealot. My post isn't directed at you, so much as those people who really do argue for the sake of argument. And as much as you say you are one of those people, I guess you are clever enough about it that I never picked up on it. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Storm Saxon, I'm probably much more that way in person than I am on Hatrack. Also in this particular case it may just be the way Weightlifter Bob rubs me "wrong" in so many ways that I feel I have to defend my point, whatever it is, to the bitter end.
I mean while he is a genuinely nice guy on one hand when it comes to animals and small children. He's also a total bigot on the other, particularly when it comes to subjects about womens issues. I'm probably one of the only people that's ever dared to say some of the stuff that I've said to him. This guy is a former world champion of his weight and age class (he didn't compete this year to defend his title because of an injury) and probably should be quite intimidating to me. As mentioned before he's never learned to corral his emotions and solve debates in any other way besides physical violence.
It isn't so much that he comes to a conclusion opposite me that I mind, it is that he doesn't THINK about what he believes so he can't defend it well. To me he seems like he swallows a lot of what other people say to him without scrutinizing it or questioning it or himself at all. And if he never hears the opposite side at least once he is swallowing it totally gullibly which makes me sad and frustrated simutaneously.
posted
btw Maccabeus as far as I can tell, while I am not physically unattractive (though not drop dead gorgeous either), most guys don't like a woman as onery as I am, so you might think twice. Even though I know all the guys out there aren't "Weightlifter Bobs" I was never asked out once in my entire college career, or had any truly positive signals given that would lead me to ask a guy out. I did ask one guy out to a very mixed result, and a long debate on what the actual definition of a "date" is.
My current bf and I are together as a result of several fortuitious accidents, not because he asked me out. No blind dates were involved either. The story is complicated but we were friends for at least a year and a half before we got together. From what I can pry from my male friends, the main fear was that I was actually smarter than them and would never be interested in them in a million years. That had everything to do with their self image and little to do with what I actually thought about them! (Especially when a couple of them are at least 300 times more intelligent than I am.)
Moral of story, you don't lose anything by asking unless your self image is so fragile that you are afraid of what they will say. You just might be suprised.
quote: For example, not signing the petition in support of the Defense of Marriage Act.... it was kind of sad how easily I could poke holes in their straw men.
I guess my filthy mind is indicative of why I have to be a "Mormon."
quote:B.Sing as I go
This is what led me to believe you were making up facts. If you don't, that's not in itself amoral. Arguing with someone who doesn't enjoy it might be non empathetic.
posted
by the BSing, I didn't mean making up facts I meant making up logical connections. There is a difference. Sometimes the logical connections are more farfetched than others. If they get too far out and someone is still believing them I eventually correct the bad logic on my own so they don't leave believing that (I hope)
posted
"Also in this particular case it may just be the way Weightlifter Bob rubs me 'wrong' in so many ways...."
You know, it's occurred to me that you've pointed Weightlifter Bob to Hatrack, and there's nothing stopping him -- if he comes here -- from looking up your posts, especially since your nick is so similar to your name. Are you sure you want to make your disdain for the guy so obvious?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
A lot of your 'following the line of logic' sounds like thinking aloud. Its difficult to define this any more than that. But you have your goal and the point your going to refute, but you don't have the answer. You've never considered that question before. So you start off in that general direction and just follow it til you get there. The problem with this is, sometimes, you get there and realize that they're right. It happens fast-- like seeing '2+2' and knowing its four.
The other thing is that this is blinding to people. You don't move in steps, but in leaps and bounds. People do this to me, and I don't see it til they go back and explain it. I do this to them, and they have the same problem.
Posts: 1621 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
I told him that i started this thread actually. If he reads it fine. But i think he thinks hatrackers are pretty kooky as it is after reading the smiley thread. Also disdain isn't the right word it is more confusion. Neither of us understand each other and I think he gets as frustrated with the communication barrier as I do.
posted
Heh! I have a manly man who thinks I'm a woman! God, the flashbacks to prison...
You just tell Bob any time he wants to party with a 230 lb., 6'3", hairy woman with a shaved head who benches about 250 lbs. and is on her way back up to 300, I'll be all over him like a condom on a steroid-shrunk penis.
But he'll have to take me out to dinner first. I am a lady.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Bob is the World record holder for the 275 lb weight class. H benchs 610 lbs. No steroids either. There's a reason I call him "Weightlifter Bob"!
AJ
(he was not impressed with Lalo's bench press numbers)
posted
FWIW, I am impressed with both Lalo and Weighlifter Bob's numbers. I am improving, but there is NO WAY I'm telling you my numbers. Posts: 524 | Registered: May 2003
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