posted
I'm breaking lurker mode for this, so it must be important.
Consider the sentence: "This product helps restore facial firmness and contour that define a youthful appearance."
I'm proofreading this, and it doesn't sound right to me. I instinctively want to add an "s" to "define." But my play it by ear approach to editing means this time I don't know which rule of grammar to cite to defend my position, other than "It sounds wrong."
After the last time I proofread this (I didn't write it), the marketing manager went in and changed the sentence. It used to read: "This product helps restore the facial firmness and contours that define a youthful appearance." Sounded good to me. But the manager then removed the words and letters I've bolded. Five drafts later, I get it back to proofread again, and it just don't sound right.
IMO, I can change it two ways (without altering the treatment of "contour" that I assume the manager wanted):
"This product helps restore the facial firmness and contour that define a youthful appearance." "This product helps restore facial firmness and contour that defines a youthful appearance."
Your job is to tell me which works the best, and why (or to tell me that I'm full of it, and why).
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
It should be "the" and "define" because "firmess and contour" is a compound subject. I don't know why your editor removed "the", unless they are just trying to get rid of every word that they possibly could.
In which case, I'd still use "define" because it seems, even without the article, that "firmess and contour" remains the subject for the verb "define".
But I am hardly a grammar expert...
Posts: 2112 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
Contour seems to be pulled in two or three directions in that sentence. I would rewrite it. Sorry, not time for real help, gotta go.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Well, that's a bit more of a rewrite than I want to make at this point. But a good suggestion.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Contour should be plural. Faces don't have just one contour, and they especially don't have one contour that makes them youthful. It's not a grammatical problem, but a factual one. If you change contour to contours, you can leave define as it is.
It sounds better with the the in front of "facial firmness" because it needs the definite article to go with the restrictive relative clause. "Which facial firmness?" The facial firmness that defines a youthful appearance.
In other words, change it back to the way it was.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:It should be "the" and "define" because "firmess and contour" is a compound subject. I don't know why your editor removed "the", unless they are just trying to get rid of every word that they possibly could.
In which case, I'd still use "define" because it seems, even without the article, that "firmess and contour" remains the subject for the verb "define".
TAK is right on. I would expand on the explanation by noting that "facial firmness and contour" is the complete (compound) subject (interpreted as "facial firmness and facial contour").
On the other hand, I really prefer: This product makes you look younger.Posts: 431 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I would also argue that changing it back to how it was works best. But for some reason, marketing wants "contour." It's a subtle nuance, but that's marketing's call and not mine. So I have to work with it.
I think I am leaning toward just adding "the." It shifts the meaning slightly, but I think it stays inside the intended message.
Thank you, TAK, Morbo, Jon Boy, and screechowl. Jon Boy, I'm going to quote you on the "restrictive relative clause" if it comes up.
Edit: Thank you also, Mr. Van Pelt. That was a good point.
Who would have thought that editing could be so involved with company politics. I am often more of a lobbyist than a purist.
[ October 08, 2003, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: advice for robots ]
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
It sounds better with "the," but it can go without it if they insist.
The verb definitely should be "define," for the reason TAK gives. I'm not clear on whether or not Jon Boy agrees, because he seems to contradict himself on this point:
quote:If you change contour to contours, you can leave define as it is. [Actually, I think it should stay "define" regardless of what you do with "contour."]
. . . . .
The facial firmness that defines a youthful appearance. [Which would be correct if the subject were simply "firmness."]
In other words, change it back to the way it was.
By "the way it was," I assume he means the way you had it, but I don't know if he is referring to "the," to "contours," to "defines," or to all three. If he is saying it should be "defines," I disagree.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I ended up just adding a "the" before "facial" and calling it good. They'll probably be OK with that, but adding an "s" to "contour" would probably get shot down.
And Icarus, I puzzled over the "Mr. Calvin" but I didn't get it. Were you even referring to me? Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
I was under the impression that your name was based on Asimov's Susan Calvin stories . . . or am I misremembering her name?
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Wow. That was actually the only possible reason I thought you might have mentioned "Calvin." But I didn't mention it because it was such a long shot and I didn't want to seem like a total sci-fi geek.
Actually, it's the title of a poem I once found on the old Radiohead site.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
I couldn't put my finger on it earlier, but I kept wanting to read contour as a verb in the phrase "contour that define." That's why I didn't like it. I think it is ambiguous and confusing. No concrete grammar advice for a rewrite, sorry. I'll leave that to the Grammar Inquisition. Weren't you expecting them? Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:This product doesn't really do anything, per se-- but it does have a pyschological effect which, through continued use and blind faith in modern science, makes you think that your face looks younger!
That seems to solve your subject/verb agreement problem rather nicely.
Posts: 3056 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I am all for active verbs - and would have suggesting "defining" myself if I had arrived on time, but jehovoid's rewrite is perfect, in every way! Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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