This article is evidence of both the casual racism rampant in the black community (change the word black to white to see what I mean), and the fact that for many black people, it is difficult for them to think outside of the confines of skin color.
For this reason, I believe racism in America to be a predominantly black issue that rests upon black people working out for themselves. I think all the well intentioned white people in the world aren't going to do a damn thing for racial equality until black people see themselves as just people and not 'black' people.
This isn't to say that some forms of institutionalized racism do not exist. what I'm saying is that if the institution, or a person, changes to be color blind, or is color blind, and black people are not capable of seeing that change, being confined to seeing the world through a prism of black/not-black, then that change is meaningless to the black person until they change themselves.
Thus, racism in this country is not a national issue but a racial issue that each 'culture' and person in that culture, the white culture and the black culture, must resolve for themselves exclusive to each other until they see themselves as part of a cultural group that is determined not by skin color but by something else.
posted
It would be interesting to perform that DNA test on racists just to see if they are all really as perfect as they seem to think they are. It'd be an interesting experiment to perform on people in general just to see how much people know about themselves and their geneology (wow, that looks like it's spelled wrong). This test might actually help to eliminate racism if people start to realize that they have a little of everything in them. On the other hand it could cause people to only associate with others who have proven themselves "worthy" through the test.
Posts: 981 | Registered: Aug 2003
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I agree Storm. What's more, I think well-intentioned white folks actually make the problem worse with affirmative action and diversity programs that emphasize how important one's skin color should be to one's identity.
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I agree with Storm. Of all the people I know, white people tend to not be racist as often as black people are. I think many black people have a persecution complex.
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You know, I'm tempted to put in a few cents, but I'm also tempted to just let Irami put the smack down on you lot. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Thus, racism in this country is not a national issue but a racial issue that each 'culture' and person in that culture, the white culture and the black culture, must resolve for themselves exclusive to each other until they see themselves as part of a cultural group that is determined not by skin color but by something else.
I am in total agreement. The government cannot eliminate racial stereotypes. The government cannot make people think like americans instead of hyphenated-americans. This is a cultural issue that laws cannot touch.
Posts: 859 | Registered: Oct 2003
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The problem with this kind of thread is that no matter how open minded you try to sound when you bring up issues, someone else will inevitably point out your latent racism. There really is only a limited number of "approved" topics you can open for discussion without getting that kind of treatment. Storm Saxon's being pretty brave here. Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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Am I alone in thinking that race really is one of those things that technically doesn't exist and is not important and yet people have killed each other and limited each other over something that isn't real?
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White on Black racism, based on stupid Racial Purity arguments is rare, relegated to senior citizens who grew up when it was the norm, and to fanatics looking for scapegoats to blame for thier own problems.
However, Class Bias is still strong in the US. Fear, more than any other factor, but bolstered by the remnants of Economic Darwinism, and the idea that one Morally Deserves ones economic status, has built walls between various social classes.
The rich fear the poor will rob them or hurt them or are only out to "get" them. And since the majority of certain races, African American, Arabic and Latino, are poor, and that the color of their skin is obvious. Three men stand on a corner, all dressed in T-Shirts and Jeans. One is black, one is asian and one is white. Can we guess which one most wants our money? Which one is most dangerous? Assumptions are made that those people are the poor who are out to get you.
Add to that the current fascination with "Gang" style music and culture, and fear overcomes "Innocent until proven guilty."
The minorities picked on then face the life under constant undeserved suspicion. Fear breeds paranoia. Are we surprised they scream Racism?
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quote: The rich fear the poor will rob them or hurt them or are only out to "get" them.
Yeah right, try switching rich and poor in that sentence to get closer to reality. The prevailing message out there to minorities is that some rich white guy in a skyscraper is looting your money. That they only reason they are poor is because white people have an exclusive club called "being rich" and they won't let anyone else join. The rich are constantly villanized as the cause of all these problems.
quote: Fear breeds paranoia. Are we surprised they scream Racism?
Not at all. Its the fact that so many people are afraid to say that race doesn't matter that causes the problem. When the screaming causes the government to create racist programs like Afirmative Action, and people are afraid to discuss it lest they be labelled racist, then we have another problem.
Posts: 859 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Am I alone in thinking that race really is one of those things that technically doesn't exist and is not important and yet people have killed each other and limited each other over something that isn't real?
Actually, race does technically exist. It is just a subset we happen to pay more attention to than hair color or eye color. Perhaps because skin covers more of our bodies than hair (at least it does for most people). If we were mice, we might point out differences between white mice and brown mice.
But there's more than just the amount of melanin in our epidermal layers that differentiates race. For example, black people are more susceptible to sickle cell anemia because of their genetic resistance to malaria. Anytime you have the geographic isolation necessary to cause different inherited skin color, you will probably also get other genetic differences that are common to a group from a certain location. Obviously, this geographic isolation is much harder today because of the amount of traveling and ease of travel of which we are capable. And the geographic isolation necessary to cause these differences takes quite a few generations. But race definitely technically exists.
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The worst misconception of freedom breeds a strain of laziness. It's the idea that freedom means the ability to shirk logical consistency, responsibility to man, the rigors of thinking and practice.
It's the queer license to deny CT when she shows that there are variants of Universal Healthcare that could provide comparable service while costing less. They don't want to think because they are healthy and young. It's the license to dismiss out of hand The Rabbit's proposal for a plan to power Idaho and Montana by harnessing the wind. They don't want to think because they don't live in Montana, and don't want to take the time to abstract out that far.
It's the laziness that leads to the very same people arguing
quote: It's the freedom to say that, Europeans became the dominant race because they got themselves there. [by hook or by crook, if need be]If a person works his way to the top shouldn't he get to enjoy the rewards? Would it be the same for a race?
One moment and that their not responsible for the sins of the past that may grease the wheels of the present in another moment.
Then wonder why,
quote:many black people have a persecution complex.
Heidegger has a conception of the world in which we are thrown in. His approach is much more complicated than that, but it's a compelling way to think of the human condition. We were throw in but there are no making excuses for any burdens we have to shoulder unnecessarily, but that it is critical that we not lie to ourselves about the world as it opens itself up to us. No amount of freedom that can be given by the government that can undue the fact that we have all been thrown into a position not of our choosing, with responsiblities not of our choosing, that I may be tall, or have breast cancer, or be poor, or white, any of it. My lot is that I've been thrown in to a complex situation where I have to address race, everyday.
I see black people not wanting to act white, white people telling me that that guy who just crossed the street because he saw me coming didn't just cross the street because he saw me coming. Or that the 60 dollar J-walking ticket I got for crossing the street walking home from a friends house at 1 in the morning wasn't because the cop suspected that I was high, or dealing, or lurking to rob someone, when I'm damn sure that the six cops who were called, the 45 minute detainment, and the search was because the cop assumed I was high, or dealing, or lurking to rob someone. Forget the demoralization, forget the sixty dollars out of my pocket, because you know, I had money to just throw around. *shrug*
It's a strange license to be negligent, and to deny the plurality which is essential to man, the interconnectedness which says, Yes, you do have a responsibility to help those in need and not look the other way like [quote=http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/fikes.html]David Cash[/quote]. I live in a world of David Cashes, and I live in a world of CTs, a world of thugs who convince themselves survive by their guile and cudgel, and humans who know that what rises us above the beast is intellect and harmony.
_______________
Robes, I don't think you are out to loot me. But I do think that you are just another David Cash. Cash didn't ask to be in that position, he was thrown in, but what did was negligent.
quote: But I do think that you are just another David Cash.
You've really gotten far from the logic tree on this. Now you are likening me to someone who witnessed a CRIME, the rape and murder of a little black girl, because I believe people should not be judged on their skin color. This is a good article on the subject of racism.
quote: They don't want to think because they are healthy and young.
Please stop reading my mind.
quote: It's the queer license to deny CT when she shows that there are variants of Universal Healthcare that could provide comparable service while costing less.
I have never argued that it could not be done for less. That is totally beside the point. Taking money from people, and giving it to those who did not earn it, is the equivalent of committing the crime, not just watching it.
You have shown that caring and feeling about an issue means much more than actual results. You seem to imply that all whites have some immense inherited guilt hanging over them, and that they should act accordingly, lest they be insensitive. I will not accept guilt that is not mine.
One makes the problem worse, by accepting this guilt. One helps in the destruction of those one wishes to aid when one accepts this guilt, and embraces a philosophy that allows the government to become a race obsessed monster.
quote:Yes, you do have a responsibility to help those in need
And what exactly is the best way to help those in need? If I disagree with you, do I automatically become an accessory to rape and murder? As I said before, this topic is nearly impossible to discuss in a civil manner. No facts will deter those who have a preset idea on how the world works.
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Uh, Irami, don't you think equating Rob to David Cash to be a tad below the frigging belt and not conducive to a fruitful exchange of ideas?
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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I think ignorance is the root of most of the problems we face in this country, and I really believe that racism is truly a form of ignorance. Racism is not knowing and understanding your neighbors and your community.
I was frankly astounded by the assertion that there is no racism in this country, or that it is somehow a "black problem." It seems to me, quite honestly, those who insist racism not does exist are guilty of an ignorance similiar to that of the racists!
Race has defined this country like nothing else in our history. It was the number one issue facing the framers of our Constitution, and it remains the number one issue in America today -- how are we as a nation going to deal with the masses of urban poor, most of whom are minorities?
Because I believe ignorance is the root of racism, it's probably obvious what I think the solution is: education. Right now there are enormous disparities between educational opportunities for the rich and educational opportunities for the poor, and the difference of environment created in schools at each end of the spectrum is equally enormous. That is where racism comes from. It is a vicious cycle of ignorance perpetuated by an educational environment (created by parents, schools, and neighborhood streets) that pushes members of each racial group toward hatred of the others.
Ignorance is something born with each new baby, and it is something we must fight constantly. For the forseeable future, there will always be a little child in an ice cream parlor who innocently asks his mother, "Why is that man's skin darker than ours, Mommy?" It is our society's responsibility to make sure that the mother grew up in an environment which taught her to tell her young son that while that man may look different, he is really the same. And if they are poor, she will have to be there to help him when the gangs begin to form in his high school, blacks vs. whites vs. latinos.
I am going to be brutally honest here: I am a white female living in Washington, D.C., a city with one of the nation's highest crime rates. Racism is something I personally have to fight every day. Maybe it's 9 o'clock at night, and it's just starting to get dark, and I have to walk past a black man standing on a corner. I'll walk faster, and wrap my jacket more tightly around myself. I won't look at him. In my mind, I know the white man standing on the other corner has just as much power to hurt me as the black man standing in front of me, but I'll still wish I was across the street.
I do think our perception of race is changing in the cities, though. The reaction I would have to a man standing on the street corner would also depend largely on his appearance -- I wouldn't think twice about passing a black man in a business suit. I'd probably nod my head as a polite greeting. The plight of the African-American in this country is gradually shifting and becoming the plight of the poor, whatever their race may be.
So maybe Storm and the people who agreed with him live in a world where everyone is well educated and all the black men and women they know wear business suits. That's certainly the way I grew up. But now....now I live in a world where the lines between rich and poor are much, much clearer, and I realize that while I condemn racism in all forms, I must always struggle to ensure that my personal actions reflect my convictions. The second I stop doing that, and the second society as a whole stops doing that, is the second when we lose all we have fought for. Ignorance is not something that simply fades away: it is something that is eliminated only through constant analysis, discussion, and action. Refusing to acknowledge the problem exists prohibits any of that from taking place.
----- Edit for spelling.
[ October 22, 2003, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Kasie H ]
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:For this reason, I believe racism in America to be a predominantly black issue that rests upon black people working out for themselves.
This is what I saw first and I think what I responded to first. You go on to say, however:
quote:Thus, racism in this country is not a national issue but a racial issue that each 'culture' and person in that culture, the white culture and the black culture, must resolve for themselves exclusive to each other until they see themselves as part of a cultural group that is determined not by skin color but by something else.
This is valid, but completely different from what you said earlier.
Mostly, though, I was responding to the voices who agreed with you by saying that racism doesn't exist or somehow isn't real.
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I don't see it as completely different, but an expansion of what I had said earlier. I know I kind of tacked that on as an afterthought to the main point you quoted first, though.
I just wanted to make sure that you didn't think I thought that there was no racism. My main point was that if you have to define yourself as a 'black man' or a 'black woman' rather than as a human being, then you are racist, which is not the same as saying racism doesn't exist at all. If my definition of racism is true, then it seems to me to be self evident than racism is much more endemic in the black community than the white community (edit: and thus more of a black issue).
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"If being black defines who you are, then is it possible to *not* be racist?"
Of course not. We are all naturally racist. It is natural to fear that which is different. There is only the matter of whether or not one will act with such feeling.
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I have to disagree there, Stormy. Black identity exists precisely because black people as a whole are and have been throughout American history, lumped together under a specific, non-flattering stereotype. There have been huge advancements in the past couple decades (and I mean decades, if that much -- let's not pretend everything's been peachy since the 60's), but by no means does that mean the stereotypes of black behavior, personality, and integrity have declined much.
One of the more amusing features of my Costa Rican trip was hiking up Mt. Chirripo with these two lovely black ladies from New York City. They were -- unusually enough -- fairly wealthy, and raised in a "white" culture. But when Karyn and I became engrossed in conversation, her friend Rhonda interjected to remind Karyn that she was "speaking white," and Karyn immediately reverted to her pampered eubonics.
These girls weren't raised in the ghetto. But the overwhelming (and all too accurate) belief that many of their race are raised in poverty -- not to mention other, even less savory assumptions -- have undoubtably been instrumental in the forming of their personalities. What part of their lives aren't touched by their skin? Legally, socially, economically, even sexually, these girls' lives have been shaped by the abundant expectations most of society has of their skin -- and I mean all of society, including and especially those of their own race.
I have a unique perspective on this, being born of a white (Norwegian) mother and Mexican immigrant father. I was raised white, since my father left the family a year or two after my birth. My mother, desperate to protect me from private schools' assumptions, even changed my name (never legally, thank god) from Eduardo to Edouard. I was given a white education and a white background -- only the kids in my neighborhood were Mexican, and that was only because my mother couldn't afford a better apartment, not if she wanted to keep giving me and my brother a fancy education.
It was about when I hit the Age of Reason that I began exploring my father's racial background. It was also a time of puberty, which meant my skin was darkening, my face was re-shaping itself to my father's family's high cheekbones and curlier hair (the hair, thankfully, didn't remain curly). But I was changing from the white-washed boy I had lived as my entire life; and I thought it was cool.
Society expects so much out of minorities. "Turning" Mexican was almost as exciting as "turning" black -- I half-expected to start drug-dealing or Rice Rocketing across LA. And my neighborhood, while nowhere near good, had virtually no gang activity (we had two very close by, but they did virtually nothing save the occasional graffiti). But nevertheless, I thought maybe I would have protection if I ever went to prison. Maybe I could get pot whenever I wanted! (Seeing how my white friends couldn't.) In other words, I was just a little white boy with darker skin, and I was thrilled by the racist stereotypes I've heard my entire life about Mexicans. And it's not as though I've grown up in an anti-Chicano environment -- my mother had two children by a Mexican, and if she bore him no special love for his departure, she didn't carry her hatred over to the entire race.
I wound up growing out of my fantasies of Latino badassness. Rather violently, in fact. I'm content in my Mexican identity now, without carrying it to the ignorant white extremes of drug dealing and street gangs (or gardeners and field-pickers, for that matter) or to the arrogant superiority other Mexicans, such as my father, hold over other Mexicans. It may surprise you to learn that many Mexicans are as unhappy about the illegal immigration problem as whites in the Deep South -- my father came here legally, thanks to his excellence in his Mexican academic career, and wound up getting his graduate degree at USC. He considers other, poorer Mexicans as wetbacks; they're ruining his reputation, he believes, and making it more difficult for him to maintain any kind of respectable social identity. And he's right. When people meet my father and hear his accent, you can almost feel the suspicion of legal status or basic competence, no matter how muted it may be.
I've been spared all that. I speak white. I can easily pass for white, except when I have a deep tan -- and even then, I can usually pull it off. My name's probably a problem on my resume, but I know I can give excellent interviews and reassure whatever employer I meet that he can both improve his diversity quota with a Mexican and hire a whitey in disguise. I'm damn lucky -- I have the best of both worlds.
And now I have to wonder, how many of you read that and nodded your heads? I know I did. But consider, why am I a whitey in disguise? Because I speak white? Because I dress white, and don't plan on gardening as a career? That's the racial identity deal kicking in once more. I don't need to address people as jefe to be a real live Mexican -- though many of my own people believe we do need to. I don't need to dress like a cholo to keep my own identity. I don't even need to drink tequila and marry a squat woman. It's like Jorge Lopez jokes in one of his stand-up CDs: When he made a call to a posh white restaurant for dinner reservations, the receptionist asked "Lopez? Funny, you don't sound Mexican."
I don't sound Mexican. Hell, when I haven't been in the sun enough, I scarcely look Mexican. But when you picture a Mexican, who do you see? The bronzed field-picker or illegal painter? Or me?
Then tell me that racism's dead in the United States.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I am not saying racism doesn't exist. My point is the exact opposite.
quote: One of the more amusing features of my Costa Rican trip was hiking up Mt. Chirripo with these two lovely black ladies from New York City. They were -- unusually enough -- fairly wealthy, and raised in a "white" culture. But when Karyn and I became engrossed in conversation, her friend Rhonda interjected to remind Karyn that she was "speaking white," and Karyn immediately reverted to her pampered eubonics.
I could almost swear this proves my point, that black people choose to define themselves primarily by skin color to a much greater degree than any other culture in the US. You can lay this down to x,y, or z, but I think the fact remains.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Black people did not always have a persecution complex. I'm sure when they were in Africa, they saw themselves as just "people" and not "black people."
You admit that there is institutionalized racism and yet you deny black people the right to identify themselves as a group?
sigh.
If our society suddenly started persecuting people with the letter "q" in their last name, and continues this persecution for about three to four hundred years, wouldn't the "q" people start identifying themselves as a minority group for political, cultural, and class purposes?
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posted
You're not saying racism doesn't exist, you're saying that poor, poor whitey is now the victim (in essence).
Sure, you're going to backpedal and say that you were pointing out that it's not just a white-on-black (or whatever) issue, and that "it goes both ways down the street." However, your thread title alone singles out a specific type, your link backs up that specification, and you basically state flat-out that racism is a problem that needs to be solved by blacks, making it essentially not your problem.
How convenient coming from a white guy.
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quote:I am not saying racism doesn't exist. My point is the exact opposite.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One of the more amusing features of my Costa Rican trip was hiking up Mt. Chirripo with these two lovely black ladies from New York City. They were -- unusually enough -- fairly wealthy, and raised in a "white" culture. But when Karyn and I became engrossed in conversation, her friend Rhonda interjected to remind Karyn that she was "speaking white," and Karyn immediately reverted to her pampered eubonics.
These girls weren't raised in the ghetto. But the overwhelming (and all too accurate) belief that many of their race are raised in poverty -- not to mention other, even less savory assumptions -- have undoubtably been instrumental in the forming of their personalities. What part of their lives aren't touched by their skin? Legally, socially, economically, even sexually, these girls' lives have been shaped by the abundant expectations most of society has of their skin -- and I mean all of society, including and especially those of their own race. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I could almost swear this proves my point, that black people choose to define themselves primarily by skin color to a much greater degree than any other culture in the US. You can lay this down to x,y, or z, but I think the fact remains.
Finish the thought, Stormy. True, Karyn and Rhonda do believe that they belong to a black culture, as proven by her learned eubonics -- but then consider why she believes it necessary to use eubonics to identify with the black race. Consider that this girl, raised in a "white" and wealthy environment, believes it necessary to mutate her speech in order to be her race.
And that doesn't tell you anything about the expectations American society at large has of the black race?
You seem desperate to lay the blame for black racial identity at the feet of those who use it exactly because society as a whole -- and that includes you and me, Stormy -- expects blacks to speak a certain way or idolize thugs and hos. No. You need to explain exactly why one can't be black -- or in my case, Mexican -- without talking the talk or walking the walk. Until you do that, I'm afraid I'm very unimpressed with your insistence that black identity evolved in a vacuum, and victimizes the open and accepting white culture.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote: But when you picture a Mexican, who do you see?
How about Zorro. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm stereotyping again, how racist of me. Whereas you weren't being racist at all, assuming that (white people?) all view Mexicans as dirty little slave-immigrants.
Ok, Yes, that's sarcasm, and I apologize in advance. I'm a friggin w.a.s.p., and I have lived a sheltered life, in a place where racism is not even an issue. I have also, based primarily on my personal apearance, been evicted twice and arrested once, in three different places. Granted, maybe I'm a little non-conformist and don't wash my hair every day- so shoot me- but I have zero criminal record. Anyway, maybe I'm a little biased because these events have occured early in my life, while I still have a very idealistic respect for the law.
Still, the fact remains. Has injustice been done to me? You bet. Have I been really pissed off about it, seriously and angrily contemplated murder over it? You bet. Was it stereotyping? Darn right. Would it have been different if I'd looked different? Right again. Am I too stubborn to change my appearance over it? Sure am, and proud of it. Do I go out and scream 'racism!','classism!' or any other ism bloody murder? Hell, no! If I were to scream something, it would be 'injustice!' and I would call for justice to right it.
The point is this: I know very little about this issue except that there has been horrible racism and it is now greatly dimninished (and hence I'm interested to know what others think on the degree of that decrease) in this country, and I know that while people call for an end to racism instead of an end to injustice, that call itself will likely be unjust.
Posts: 1103 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote: You seem desperate to lay the blame for black racial identity at the feet of those who use it exactly because society as a whole -- and that includes you and me, Stormy -- expects blacks to speak a certain way or idolize thugs and hos. No. You need to explain exactly why one can't be black -- or in my case, Mexican -- without talking the talk or walking the walk. Until you do that, I'm afraid I'm very unimpressed with your insistence that black identity evolved in a vacuum, and victimizes the open and accepting white culture.
I'm not 'desperate to lay the blame' on anyone, I'm just pointing out a situation that I see and asking a question. I honestly, at this point, don't care. I can only treat people as I would like to be treated. If they don't like it, oh, well. Honestly, I expected a little better from you than to throw such accusations in my face, Lalo.
Now, you say society expects black people to act a certain way, but is it all society or just black society that pushes 'being black'? Is black society taking its cues from the rest of us, or are we taking our cues from black society?
quote: You need to explain exactly why one can't be black -- or in my case, Mexican -- without talking the talk or walking the walk.
But why do I need to explain that? Must black people be black, Mexicans Mexican, or whatever? Isn't the goal of being color blind to not be black or brown or whatever, but just to be yourself without taking your skin color into consideration? Either the goal of having a color blind society is a valid goal, one that people can aspire to, or it's a foolish goal and perhaps we should all take pride in being white, black, brown, whatever and not expect others to see below our skin. If we are all indeed locked into being defined by our skin color, then there is no hope for rising above it, no?
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Colorblind (cu-lor-blind, noun)—white people's best excuse for laying the blame for years of (ongoing) racism squarely at the feet of the minorities they continue to hold down today.
Posts: 6907 | Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
As a white person, I'm unaware of ever holding anyone down, much less attempting to find excuses for it.
But I do know that colorblind is not a mere excuse created by whites. Rather, I believe it was brought up by Martin Luther King Jr. It is the dream, and the truth is, anything else is by definition racist.
quote:Until you do that, I'm afraid I'm very unimpressed with your insistence that black identity evolved in a vacuum, and victimizes the open and accepting white culture.
Where did Storm say anything like that?
quote:You need to explain exactly why one can't be black -- or in my case, Mexican -- without talking the talk or walking the walk.
Firstly, the issues of blacks and Mexicans are different. Blacks are defined only by skin color, whereas Mexicans are defined by their heritage.
You can be 'black' without walking any walk, but if that is the case, being black should be no more fundamental to your identity than being a red-head or being blue-eyed. This is because black, itself, implies nothing more than a skin color. If your skin color defines your identity, you must be associating other things with it, because skin color alone is too meaningless to say anything real about one's identity as a person.
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posted
Storm, if your point is merely to say that racism exists in minority cultures as well as in "WASP" culture, then I can agree with it.
I don't agree, though, that being conscious of your identity as a hyphenated-American is equivalent to racism. I see it as more of a solidarity with people who understand your common experiences. Including your experience of oppression. We group ourselves all the time, with people who share our perspective. Science fiction fans. Mormons. Atheists. Liberals. Conservatives. This doesn't inherently mean that we don't see ourselves and each other as human first. If it goes to that extreme, then yes, it's racist. But it's not racist to acknowledge and value your membership in a particular group.
I don't have an answer to the issue of affirmative action, and whether or not it's the best way to promote equality. I don't believe anybody on either side is inherently racist for being on a given side. I've read some very convincing arguments on both sides, and find myself nodding my head a lot, and coming no closer to a definite position.
But when you go from commenting on how racism is not limited to the dominant culture, and from opining on the merits of affirmative action, to the statement that racism in America is "a predominantly black issue," then I have to disagree pretty strongly. And I'm racking my brain trying to think of a way to explain why that won't put you off, but I don't feel up to the task, because it ultimately comes down to a conviction on my part that you could only possibly believe that because, as a member of the dominant culture, you simply haven't experienced enough prejudice to realize that racism is not primarily in the minds and imaginations of minority members. Despite the fact that I can pass for a white American, I have personally experienced a great deal of anti-Latino prejudice and discrimination. I can only imagine how much worse it would be if the differences between me and other people were more apparent. But just from where I'm standing, it's not even close. Racism is not prediminantly a black issue. But if you can't live it, I'm not sure how to convince you of that.
I think it's easy for members of the dominant culture to come to believe that they are not conscious of race (and ethnicity), while minorities are, because ethnicity doesn't impact majority members to the same degree. If you haven't been oppressed, it's only natural to think that. It's also easy to think you don't dwell on your own culture when your culture is the dominant one.
So what can we do?
Well, that's a tougher question.
The obvious answers . . . education, and working to eradicate prejudice in yourself . . . don't solve the problem of widespread societal racism, but at least they are answers that we can probably agree on. Institutional solutions are harder to agree on.
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I see a lot of "exceptions that prove the rule" analysis here. Some of you are saying, "well, I'm white and I'm not racist." That's fine, but does that prove that we do not live in a racist society? No.
Also, the argument that "some black people are keeping themselves down" is probably true in some cases, but again, is that the general case?
Oh, Rivka, that's "uncommon knowledge" because such experiments are highly unethical.
[ October 23, 2003, 05:07 AM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
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quote: I think it's easy for members of the dominant culture to come to believe that they are not conscious of race (and ethnicity), while minorities are, because ethnicity doesn't impact majority members to the same degree.
I would say the the dominant american culture is not white. Nor is it black. This is the root of the problem. We live in the same culture, the same cities, the same states. The culture is american.
quote: Institutional solutions are harder to agree on.
There are no institutional solutions. The government cannot force people to think differently, nor should it be trying to. Any attempt at an institutional solution is going to make the problem worse for all involved.
quote:Colorblind (cu-lor-blind, noun)—white people's best excuse for laying the blame for years of (ongoing) racism squarely at the feet of the minorities they continue to hold down today.
This is exactly the attitude that destroys race relations in this country. ALL WHITE PEOPLE ARE RACIST! ALL.... oh.. wait..
quote: I was frankly astounded by the assertion that there is no racism in this country,
I have seen no one make this claim. The point I have been harping most recently is government sanctioned racism. It is rampant, and widely accepted.
quote: Race has defined this country like nothing else in our history. It was the number one issue facing the framers of our Constitution,
This is very wrong. The framers specifically avoided race so as not to upset the southern colonies. It could be debated as to what was the most important issue to the founding fathers, but it was certainly not race.
quote: Then tell me that racism's dead in the United States.
There seems to be the habitual problem in these race discussions of people arguing that racism DOES exist. Of course it exists. I don't think anyone here would tell you it does not. When those who want to eliminate racism are attacked and labeled as denying the problem, the entire discussion moves backward.
quote: you're saying that poor, poor whitey is now the victim (in essence).
quote:However, your thread title alone singles out a specific type, your link backs up that specification, and you basically state flat-out that racism is a problem that needs to be solved by blacks, making it essentially not your problem.
This whole attitude of those who want to ebrace and celebrate racism is destructive. Leto seems to be very quick to use a broad racial brush to talk about WHITEY. This complete ignorance of the real problem is what keeps this issue from getting serious attention. No one wants to talk about what the real problems are. Those who do, are racists or worse. Its off limits to most people to discuss reality when dealing with this issue.
To be sure, the black white issue is the biggest racial concern in this country. I would argue that this is a result of an organized attempt to ignore the problem. Other ethnic groups who have been looked down on just as much or more than blacks have become part of our society. Yet we do not hear about how there are not enough Hindu congressmen. We don't hear about the lack of Chinese governers. This is because no one was around to "level the playing field" for these people. They became part of our american culture. The reason the black white issue is so huge now, is because of the government attempts to force it down people's throats. The legalized racism of hiring people based on the color of their skin. Until these racist laws are reversed, it will continue to be a huge issue in this country.
Over time, familiarity causes acceptance. Perhaps not within people's lifetimes, but over generations. The longer people exist in the same environment, with the same rules applied to them, the closer they will become.
During the rule of the British in India, indians were taught to act subservient to the Brits. They were taught to stop and get off their horse if a Brit rode or walked by. They were taught to act reverent and obedient to the british. This sort of separation creates contempt and furthers racial stereotyping. Now those who support afirmative action would have us do the same thing, to create a different standard for blacks, to legally separate them from society.
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quote: don't agree, though, that being conscious of your identity as a hyphenated-American is equivalent to racism.
It's one thing to be conscious of your cultural identity, and quite another for that to define who you are totally. To believe, I have to do such or think such because it's what black, or white, or brown people are expected to do. To, as Lalo's example showed, not be able to speak in a certain way because to do so brands you as 'not black'.
Your assertion that I haven't exeprienced enough racism or something to, I think, see things clearly is silly and kind of cheap. I can, in five minutes, pull up a ton of links from 'black' sites which potray white people negatively, as all being a certain way, in ways that only fringe elements in white culture currently do to black people. White people (edit: can) experience racism just as much as anyone else. I could throw your accusation right back at you and we'll get no where. It's not a productive thing to say. Who's to say that I haven't experienced 'more' or 'worse' racism than you?
Racism is experienced by everyone, but it is not an excuse to let your race define you or to define other people by their race. Do you disagree with this?
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think it's easy for members of the dominant culture to come to believe that they are not conscious of race (and ethnicity), while minorities are, because ethnicity doesn't impact majority members to the same degree. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would say the the dominant american culture is not white. Nor is it black. This is the root of the problem. We live in the same culture, the same cities, the same states. The culture is american.
How convenient that American culture is synonymous with white English speaking culture, then.
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Institutional solutions are harder to agree on. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are no institutional solutions. The government cannot force people to think differently, nor should it be trying to. Any attempt at an institutional solution is going to make the problem worse for all involved.
That's one position. Other people feel differently. Which is why I said that it was harder to agree on.
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Race has defined this country like nothing else in our history. It was the number one issue facing the framers of our Constitution, --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is very wrong. The framers specifically avoided race so as not to upset the southern colonies. It could be debated as to what was the most important issue to the founding fathers, but it was certainly not race.
The framers did not avoid race (3/5 compromise?). The writers of the Declaration did, after attempting to address it nearly stopped the process cold. The fact that it caused such dissension that we almost did not declare our independence at all over it, and that we had to avoid the whole issue to get the resolution approved, would seem to be evidence for the original statement.
quote:Other ethnic groups who have been looked down on just as much or more than blacks have become part of our society. Yet we do not hear about how there are not enough Hindu congressmen. We don't hear about the lack of Chinese governers. This is because no one was around to "level the playing field" for these people. They became part of our american culture.
Of all you say in your post, this is what I personally find most absurd. Hindu and Chinese people clearly [i]are[/u] underrepresented in our political life. You seem to be implying that because nobody comments on this, it is evidence that a lack of affirmative action programs for them has caused them to succeed where blacks have not. Let's put aside how you ignore the fact that affirmative action programs benefit these groups as well, and not just African Americans. The reason we don't hear complaints about the underrepresentation of Hindus and Chinese people in our government is that they are such a small minority in our country that it is hard to say with any statistical certainty what a realistic representation for them would be. There are only 100 Senators, so maybe the fact that we don't have half a dozen oriental ones is simply a coincidence. But the African Americans and Latinos are such large minorities in our country that their underrepresentation is glaringly obvious. Why don't we have a significant number of black and/or latino senators?
In other words, the reason we make a bigger deal about the absence of blacks and latinos from positions of power is because this absence is much more glaring and disproportionate.
You say that nobody is denying the existence of racism, just disagreeing about how to eradicate it. Well, I would agre with you as far as that goes. I don't know what the best approach is. (I would disagree that absolutely no institutional solutions are possible, though. Leaving aside the debate over Affirmative Action, education is an institution. So is religion. And while we can't force people to think a certain way, we can certainly present them with as broad and inclusive and non-disriminatory a worldview as possible, and encourage open-mindedness, and look down on prejudice.)
But then you make statements like this last one, which basically say that while racism exists, it is primarily the fault of African Americans and Latinos. Not only do I feel that this is wrong, I think it's pretty astonishingly wrong. In fact, I wonder how one can believe this without having lived an extraordiarily sheltered life.
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quote:To, as Lalo's example showed, not be able to speak in a certain way because to do so brands you as 'not black'.
I agree that this is a bad thing. I would say it happens in white American culture just as much. How do whites respond when they hear a white person speaking in a ghetto fashion?
quote:Your assertion that I haven't exeprienced enough racism or something to, I think, see things clearly is silly and kind of cheap.
I am truly sorry that you are offended by this. I hope we can be friends despite my giving you offense, though, because I stand by it. I think it is silly and cheap to believe you have any idea what pervasive prejudice against you is like because you can find some idiot saying something on some website. Doing so gives you only the smallest taste of what prejudice and discrimination are like, because you can laugh it off and return to the culture where you get preferential treatment when it comes to virtually everything.
And this is the crux of the debate, of course, because you believe that it is now minorities who get this preferential treatment. And in the case of Affirmative Action, you may have something there. And that's why I haven't decided how I feel about affirmative action. But most aspects of life are not controlled or affected by affirmative action.
And there's the thing: you keep wondering where on earth you said that racism didn't exist, while in a dozen small ways you downplay the pervasiveness of it. It exists, but it's the political stances of minorities that perpetuate it. It exists, but mostly just in the form of minority members who are prejudiced against white anglo-saxon protestants. It exists, but is no worse than the prejudice encountered by white anglo-saxon protestants. All of these statements indicate to me a thorough lack of awareness of what it's like to be a member of a minority.
Heck, if anything, I am evidence. Am I pegged in your little book of Hatrackers as a rabid liberal? Do I talk about how Bush is evil, abortion is a right, we need more welfare, we need more gun control, affirmative action is right, and Christians are all hypocrites? Because I don't think I'm particularly liberal. And yet, having lived through something that you have not, I'm telling you that you are mistaken about the extent to which minority members are oppressed. And I wonder how many members of minorities would agree with your descriptions of where prejudice and discrimination largely come from and who is largely to blame for it.
If you persist on ignoring people who have lived it, and in making statements that seem to me to be obviously false, that your experience of prejudice and racism is comparable to that of a black person . . . well, are you really seeking knowledge here?
quote:Racism . . . is not an excuse to let your race define you or to define other people by their race. Do you disagree with this?
I agree with you, as far as the stark extremes you painted go. My ethnicity is one of my defining traits. But it is certainly not the only one or the most important one. Is that good enough?
I can't stop being a minority unless I move to a barrio and marginalize myself. I would say that the racist blacks you decry are simply--and wrongfully--seeking to surround themselves with their own culture to have the experience of not being an outsider that white Americans take for granted every day.
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And yet, having lived through something that you have not, I'm telling you that you are mistaken about the extent to which majority members are oppressed.
quote: Oh, Rivka, that's "uncommon knowledge" because such experiments are highly unethical.
That's debatable. If conducted with great care, they can be very useful, as interviews with participants show. But that means that such an experience is never conducted casually, or without a thorough understanding of what potential pitfalls are and how to avoid them.
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By the way, megachirops, what do you mean by majority and minority members? Does a white guy in a predominantly hispanic neighborhood have the same kind of minority status, or experience, as a hispanic guy in a predominantly white neighborhood?
quote: How convenient that American culture is synonymous with white English speaking culture, then.
The language of the united states is English. Should we change that to suit speakers of Tatar or of Albanian? Please define "white culture." I think you are walking on thin ice with that assumption. Since America is not all white, even if there were sucha thing as white culture, the culture of america could not possibly be all white.
quote: You seem to be implying that because nobody comments on this, it is evidence that a lack of affirmative action programs for them has caused them to succeed
No, I am saying that the lack of comment implies that it is not a national issue. I am saying that there is not a lack of representation of Hindus in congress, the very idea that one race could be over or under represented is a farce. Everyone gets a vote.
quote: which basically say that while racism exists, it is primarily the fault of African Americans and Latinos.
Wrong. I lay the blame at the feet of those who write laws which change standards based on race. I blame those who embrace this philosophy, and those who vote for candidates who do.
The very fact that the term "African Americans" is used means there is a serious problem. I know a few african americans, not all of whom are black. Most blacks that I know, are not african americans. This special term, which allows others to feel warm and fuzzy by specially recognizing a group of people is part of the problem. I know the point has been gone over before, but when you are an african american first, then an american, you set youself up for being defined something other than who you are as a person.
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Storm, I'm a full member of white America, with the Nordic skin and blue eyes and blond hair.
You know I respect you and all. I used to think the same way about this issue as you did (that whites had as much racism towards them as other people). Maybe it's even true for your experience, but for me, I've learned that that view is freakin' absurd. I'm using the harshest possible terms here to get across how divorced from reality I think that that assessment is. I swim in a sea of white priviledge, but it took quite a bit for me to realize that this was the case.
Again, maybe your experience is different. It is possible. I'm just adding a datapoint of a white guy who pretty much agrees with Icarus here. I only hope that you take this in that spirit and not as some sort of attack on you.
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quote: I used to think the same way about this issue as you did (that whites had as much racism towards them as other people).
I won't speak for storm, but this is not how I think about the issue. The only thing I am concerned with, is how to solve the problem. How do you propose solving the problems we have, without turning the government into the thought police?
quote: I swim in a sea of white priviledge
I am not going to question your personal situation, however, I have not seen this so-called white priviledge. There is a higher number of poor whites in this country than any other group. White priviledge implies that whites get special advantages over people who are not white. While I am sure that this does happen, it is not as all pervasive as you would have us believe. Most businesses are more concerned with making money than about someone's skin color.
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White people are more likely to insist that they are color-blind, that race doesn't matter, and that they are racist. They are more likely to say, "We've come such a long ways, things are better now," and then...on to the next subject. This is partially understandable because white people are more likely to be conditioned to this response, for a few reasons: white people are taught now to regard racism as something...icky. We (white people, and I use the term "we" not to say all whites are the same) are loathe to talk openly about it because, really, it's a tricky issue. It's a minefield. Take one step too far in one direction, and you're a bigot. Take one step too far in another direction and you're a bleeding heart liberal. And the boundaries are not only not clear, they often run crooked. In one context you haven't crossed a line, but in a different situation you have.
But this is all simply to say that white people, as a group in America, are more likely to want to pretend that racism is simply not a problem in America anymore, or that if it is, there's nothing they can do about it.
This thread is a perfect example of that tendancy. Storm, you're saying more or less that, yes racism is a problem, but it's not really my problem and that even if it was, there's nothing I can do about it.
I get why this chaps some black people's asses in a big way. Not get as in I know what it feels like (the white boy hastens to add), but I understand that from a black person's perspective, all the "ifs" and "I can't really do anything about its" are absurd. Sure, the onus ain't only on white people to solve the problems of racism, but to thrust the majority of the burden on black people is pretty offensive, and illogical. The only way it's not is if you're willing to admit that, in fact, racism isn't a practical problem for black people coming from the majority-us-in America today.
And while that is much more true now than it was even ten years ago, it's still not remotely close to the complete truth.
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First of all, of course there are more poor white people in the country than there are poor black people, Robespierre.
Second, many black thinkers on this subject rightly point out that white people "swim in a sea of privilege" that they don't even know exists. Think of it this way. Let's say you and I have been swimming in regular water all our lives. We're used to it. It's natural. But then, one day, we hear a third person say, "Look at you! You've got it so easy! Just swimming there like it's nothing." And we respond, "What are you talking about? This is how it is. You swim just like we do in the same water." And he replies, "Yeah, but I'm swimming in pudding." (Not the most rhetorically powerful statement, I know, but you get my drift.) How are we, living in white skins, to know that black people have it exactly the same way? We don't. We can't know it...but we can, can't we? A little bit.
Did you ever see the film Gentlemen's Agreement? In it, Gregory Peck plays the role of a white, Christian journalist in the 1950s who, for a news story, pretends to be a Jewish man. He looks exactly the same, and the intimates in his life know the truth, but to new people he is a Jew. He expected things would be different, but he was astounded to discover just how different. Like you and I, he was academically aware that bigotry is a problem in America. But it hadn't hit him in the gut, because approximately 7+ / 10 people he met in his everday life, the people he interacted and worked and lived with, were white people. He was a white person, and a Christian.
He never knew until he'd walked a mile in the other guy's shoes, so to speak, what it was like. He realized that no white Christian man should have a pretense of true understanding, since they couldn't understand. You should have get rid of that same pretense, Robespierre. The pretense that things aren't radically different.
I'm not saying it's as bad as it was in the 1950s, but I am saying that for the problems that remain, it's virtually impossible for you to understand them, particularly since anyone with a radically different experience, you dismiss and say, "I don't swim in a sea of privilege, this is how things are, and it's not so great."
Edit:
quote:While I am sure that this does happen, it is not as all pervasive as you would have us believe. Most businesses are more concerned with making money than about someone's skin color.
To reiterate, how would you know it's not as all pervasive? You must admit that you're claiming certainty on an issue that you must also admit you have no experience whatsoever with.
And yes, I agree with your statement about most businesses. But then again, there are, proportionally, many, many more white people who are qualified by education and contacts-the two most important things-for the professional world than there are not. You and I can safely admit there are many white people who simply aren't as comfortable with black people as they are with white people, and this goes both ways. How do you think that affects things like networking, reference-making, etc.?
quote: I get why this chaps some black people's asses in a big way. Not get as in I know what it feels like (the white boy hastens to add), but I understand that from a black person's perspective, all the "ifs" and "I can't really do anything about its" are absurd.
This is about the 10th post saying the same thing, nothing. Make a suggestion as to what an individual can do to solve the problem. Racism is not something that exists outside of individuals(unless you are speaking of the afirmative action laws). It is enough for one person to understand the problem and not act as a racist. If any one person trys to go further than that, by attemping to "level the playing field" and change their standards for people of a certain color, they then encourage the problem, not solve it.
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Rakeesh, didn't you used to be on the other side on this issue. It's a good thing you came around. The race legacy isn't any living American's fault, except for the white priders, pre-1978 LDS church, and any one who gets unduly squeamish around black people, you know who you are, but while it's no one person's fault, it's everyone's problem.
We are all thrown into a problem, it's like being born with a disability, maybe one of those disabilities that can be worked around, like a learning disability. (On another related subject, someone is going to have to explain to me this recent onslaught of rich white kids with learning disabilities, it's astounding, and if it is just becoming a way to buy more time on tests, it's really shameful. Now I'm sure the folks using it as a scam could just be rich, and not necessarily white, but I think the awareness of the trick travels through parental networks and I wouldn't be surprised if I found a study biasing it towards race.)
Back to race as the nation's learning disability. We just have to work it out, figure out the disadvantages and work through them slowly. The individual's solution is to pay attention, don't deny the problem, and address it when it comes up in your life.
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