posted
This is a little rant. It isn't even over something big - just something little. It is, however, a once-again reminder of how irritating it is to be in a society. I do it because I like the positive things, but why do there have to be so many negative things along with that?
Anyway, I'm on the activities committee for my ward. The activities committe is typically huge in a young single adult ward, because everyone is on their own and to keep from drowning lonely-ily in their homes, there are lots of things to do. The goal is to have an activity of some sort every week. That means there's lots of people, and everyone specializes in something or other, and we basically organize stuff.
Well, the easy thing to organize is sports. There's lots of that. Always. But there's lots of peope for whom sports does not fit, and I wanted to do something for them. So, last week I had a showing of the work of the artists in the ward (our boundries include the Dallas Art Institute).
It was great. We had eight artists show, three singer/songwriters perform, and everybody wrote poetry and read it out loud. It was only about twenty people, but that was perfect for my living room. Best of all, it was mostly people who never come to the other activities - which was the point. One artist came up to me afterward and said it was so cool - he didn't know there were people in the ward like him. I was so thrilled and happy. *wriggles a bit*
Anyway, there's an e-mail sent out to everyone today, though, by the ex-girlfriend of one of the songwriters from Saturday, announcing a talent show for EVERYONE (emphasis hers). In a week and a half. That's great - I'm definitely going. But now I'm concerned - does that mean I somehow, in trying to include people who never come, made the people who always come feel unwelcome? That was SO not my intention. Dagnabbit.
Anyway, it's really not a big deal. It just seems a little beside the point of a having a variety of activities to have, instead, the same activity every two weeks. Ah well. That's life. And society. And people. Humans. It's just human.
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I'm a little stressed today about other things. Thanks for your patience.
I'm wondering - is this really being passive-aggresive? I mean, it's almost flattering - it means word-of-mouth report went well enough they want to repeat it. That's good. Something about imitation being the sincerest form of flattery?
The emphasized word does feel a bit passive-aggresive. Ah well. It's all part of being in a society. I'm trying to remember why there's good things about it. Something about liking people and getting experiences no other way and that's what we're here for... something like that, anyway. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I'm proud of what you did. It *is* irritating to be in society, but if the cost of small triumphs is a few passive-aggresive (or even more overt) slights, then it's worth it.
Or to put it this way:
There are plenty of others taking care of the needs of "everyone." If you have the ability and desire to relate to and feed those on the periphary, then do it. There's a real need for it.
posted
Kat, I'm just going by your interpretation of her letter which seems to imply you weren't being inclusive. She didn't speak to you about it, so if she does have an issue with you not inviting everyone, and emphasizing everyone as a way of poking you about not including everyone without actually confronting you, personally, about it is,indeed, passive-aggressive.
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Stormy, that's what I got, but I'm not very good on picking up on subtleties like that. I'm hoping my impression was wrong, but if it wasn't, oh well. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
On the other hand, it's just possible (putting the kindest possible spin on this girl's motivations, you understand ) that she emphasized EVERYONE for the sake of those in the ward who might feel embarrassed or unqualified to perform/display after the talent obviously displayed at the first activity. She may simply have wanted to reassure people that they don't have to be impressive and semi-professional in order to do this. Know what I mean?
...
Or, she could be being snarky. But in situations like this I always try to convince myself to give the benefit of the doubt. Posts: 2762 | Registered: Sep 1999
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((((((Kat)))))) Oh dear. Sometimes life is kind of difficult. But still beautiful on other times Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001
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Your church, kat, remember, it's your church. You were invited by God the Father. Ever since you told me that it's made the greatest difference to me in all my dealings with the people of my ward. Thank you, by the way. The artists' show sound just wonderful! <<<<kat>>>>
[ November 04, 2003, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
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And, of course, to get pedantic (hey, I'm good at it -- or at least there must be some reason that everywhere I go they make me teach Elder's Quorum ), the best way to react to such situations is for you and the others involved in your event to attend the talent show and laugh and clap and support those participate in this one.
I have no illusions about this stance -- I think 'mainstream' members will always distrust artist types to a certain extent -- but I also have no patience with the artist types who get all haughty or sulky about it.
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quote:I think 'mainstream' members will always distrust artist types to a certain extent
Why?
Dang it, I really have been in a perfect bubble most my life. What the heck? I didn't know this! Why on earth? It's cool! And incredible. And productive and wisdom-inducing. And sweet. And vulnerable. Where does the distrust come from?
I am planning on going to the talent show. I hope the people who performed Saturday play again. I was sad that more "mainstream" people didn't come on Saturday, but that was on the theory that familiarity breeds attraction, and what the artists and musicians was to not be mysterious. That doesn't work if the mainstream people don't come, though. Is it really mistrust?
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posted
Maybe anyone who is different is frightening? I'm not sure why. I'm not in this for the social aspects, really. I only really care about trying to do God's work. In the course of that, I'm hopefully being pleasant and kind to those around me, so if any friendships spring up naturally then that's great. If not, it's not important. So far, though there are some people I've come to like, I don't feel I've made real friends with anyone in either of my wards.
I know it's important that we feel ourselves to be a sisterhood, to be of one heart, and I do feel that when we are praying together, or in sacrament meeting together, or when we are listening to speakers and lessons. Do I feel that way when we are chit chatting before and after meetings? No. I don't fit well in sisterhoods. I'm just not the type. They don't see the things I'm good at, so they don't generally value me. All they see is the things I'm not particularly good at, so to them I seem rather lame. It doesn't matter, though. It's the work that matters. In that I am quite capable.
[ November 04, 2003, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
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posted
Oh, don't get me wrong. I think that Mormon artists are able to participate as active LDS to an amazing degree and are accepted as such. However, artistic discourse will always be suspect to some members of the LDS community because it deals with ambiguity. The disadvantage of the self-help, 'management-style' discourse (Stephen R. Covey anyone?) and the apologetic discourse (FARMS) that is part of modern Mormon discourse is that people have become way too sure of things and way too uncomfortable with ambiguity and relativism and subjectivity. I understand the reaction -- the need for answers and standards and eternal truths -- but the end result too often misses the messiness inherent in temporal, mortal life (a messiness, however, that the scriptures capture, imo). The other problem with these discourses (if that's all one is steeped in) is that they drive always towards the pedagogical -- self-improvement. Again, not a bad thing. But ultimately in my experience, unsatisfying, if not also tempered with aesthetic pleasure and the ambiguity and deep concern with text/context/image/sound that art can bring.
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posted
ak: Your experience is echoed by women in my own family. I think the major thing I would like to see changed is a broader view of value -- of seeing better the things that others are good at and valuing those things even if they're not your cup of tea.
What about the women who aren't into tole painting, but can pour a foundation? What about the men who don't play sports but can recite Gilbert and Sullivan lyrics (or play cool cover versions of Joy Division songs)?
I think that it's easier for guys. And it's always been easier for me to carve out a place because I can be that 'really knows how to express gospel precepts well' guy. But even so, I've never really been part of the 'club.'
That's beginning to change, but that's because I live in a very cool, quite liberal ward with an Elder's Quorum that's being taken over by graphic designers, grad students and Web editors (who else would be crazy enough to try and live in Oakland these days? You're either here because you bought a house 30-40 years ago or because you are in a field where you have to be here in order to have a good job).
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You did a Very Good Thing. Whether this other woman had an issue with it (in which case, she is certainly being passive-aggressive), or if she was just inspired to do something similar -- it doesn't affect the fact that you put together something special and wonderful. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
(((Kat))) Just keep on doing what you are doing.
For those of you who live in nice, liberal wards -how I envy you. I don't, and that is why I am more out of than in the church.
ak, it's nice to say, well, I'm not in in for the social aspects. However, I have been put in a position way too many times, of not just being on the periphery because I'm not a typical Mormon woman, but of being explicitly told that I am wrong because I'm not.
Like the time that I was told that I needed to change my interests (science, in that particular conversation) because they were not "appropriate" for a woman, especially a woman in the church. Like the time I was told that my opinions weren't worth anything because I am a woman. Like the time that I was told that reading for enjoyment and instruction outside of church topics was a "luxury" that a real Mormon woman could not afford. I could go on, but I won't.
There is a real prejudice in the church against anyone who does not conform to the stereotypes, especially women who do not conform. I am who I am, and I don't beleive that God has a problem with that. But I don't have the energy to hang out with people who are constantly trying to tear down who I am.
One of the reasons I like Hatrack is that I don't find that here. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that Hatrack is the most positive experience of the church I've ever had.
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posted
You know, I'm not Mormon, but this goes back to the thread that I posted about liberalism in the Mormon church, I think. My impression from that and from this is that, despite protests to the contrary, the church really isn't very welcoming to a diversity of view points. If my recollections of that thread serve, a lot of Mormons took a great deal of trouble to say that the church didn't force any points of view on its members. (Outside of religious doctrine.)
It's pretty clear from this thread that that assertion isn't necessarily accurate. That,despite the theory, the reality is that there is definitely a culture of conformity in the church that works very hard to maintain the status quo.
Is it more welcome or less welcome than other denominations to change? I don't know. I'm not trying to say that the Mormon church is bad for being 'conservative'. As a liberal, of course, I would love to see liberalism spread. As a non-Mormon on the outside of the church, whose only experiences with Mormons are almost all exclusively from this site, I guess I should probably keep my mouth shut about things that I am not a part of and probably don't understand.
I don't know. Threads like this factor in very highly when I think about the culture of the country and its future. I sometimes think that liberalism really has no proselytizing forces to bring more people in, so I worry about its future.
This whole post is a tangent off of the main post. Blah.
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posted
It depends on what you mean by being welcoming. While the attitudes that lma encountered exist, a lot of Mormons don't quite have that same me-Mormon-culture-think thing. What I mean by that is that while they are orthodox when it comes to the doctrines of the LDS church and try and practice their religion (church-going, good-living, temple-attending, scripture-reading, etc.), they also are very involved in secular culture and work. That is, while Mormonism may infuse their work/play selves, it's not entirely the focus and subject of those cultural and work selves. Does that make sense? I'm not talking about (pardon the expression) Christmas and Easter Catholics. I'm talking about active LDS who aren't fully wrapped up in what I like to call the 'subsidiary' discourses of Mormon culture (anxious self-improvement/management and apologetics, for instance that I reference above). These discourses are quite conservative and are what I am concerned about.
At any rate, there's generally not a problem when church interactions stay in official, orthodox church discourse mode -- and in my experience most Mormons of my parents generation and younger are most comfortable with that mode -- the problems come when the culture starts to intrude in other parts of member's lives (for example their reading habits or outside interests, as lma expresses above) -- when members refuse to disentangle their own cultural attitudes from what's actual official doctrine.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is that doctrinally, Mormonism can be liberal (not in the basic tenets and practices, but more in an openness to learning from other ideas out there and experiencing and dialoguing with other religions and the secular world -- the classical sense of the word liberal). Some elements of its culture are very conservative and problematic (imo). What many Mormons are struggling with now is whether it is just a religious identity or also a sort of ethnicity and culture (the aftereffects of creating a homogenous, geographically centered culture in the Intermountain West).
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FYI,I find this whole thread very fascinating and in general find Mormons to be possessed of the very best intellectual abilities. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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There is a culture of conformity in the Mormon Church.
Depending on where you live, that culture may be rigidly or loosely enforced.
I made up my mind a long time ago not to let culture affect my relationship with God or His work here on earth. So, whether someone likes the way I do things does not matter one bit. I'm dedicated to serving God, not the fluid-as-Jello Mormon culture.
LMA, sorry for your experiences.
Kat, you're not seriously asking for a judgement of some poor girl who you've only said two words about are you?
Don't imagine that someone else's work can detract from your own successes. You seem to have done great-- let it ride.
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posted
I think Zalmoxis had a very good point that many people are uncomfortable with the unknown. The idea that there even IS anything unknown bothers many people. That seems true to me. Artists are always upsetting people's applecarts, and maybe this is why.
I love my church. Those things that lma was told are contrary to doctrine. Brigham Young said that everything that's true is part of our religion. And that we should never stop learning our whole lives long. That all of science and literature and culture, all human knowledge is appropriate study for Latter Day Saints. Also that women are capable and smart and able, that many of our sisters would make good lawyers and accountants and so on. He said this in the latter part of the nineteenth century before such things were at all common in the United States as a whole. He said that women should get the chance to do these things. That everyone should educate themselves as much as they can possibly manage.
Women had the vote in Utah before they did in the United States. Mormons were pioneers in women's suffrage. One of the other "heathen" practices the early Mormons followed, along with polygamy, was women's suffrage. The United States outlawed that practice too. And we lost that right for a good many years more, until it was gained again in the U.S. as a whole.
Doctrinally, and historically, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has always supported women's rights. The doctrine teaches that marriage is an equal partnership. I'm not really sure how Mormon cultural practice came to differ from this to the extent that it does, but it's not official or even traditional with us at all.
[ November 04, 2003, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
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quote: One artist came up to me afterward and said it was so cool - he didn't know there were people in the ward like him. I was so thrilled and happy. *wriggles a bit*
katharina, and this is God's work, if anything is, I think. Being a Maker.
quote: I only really care about trying to do God's work. In the course of that, I'm hopefully being pleasant and kind to those around me, so if any friendships spring up naturally then that's great. If not, it's not important. -- ana kata
quote:I made up my mind a long time ago not to let culture affect my relationship with God or His work here on earth. So, whether someone likes the way I do things does not matter one bit. I'm dedicated to serving God, not the fluid-as-Jello Mormon culture.
ana kata and Scott, you two remind me of one of my favorite prose poems of all. It's been attributed to Mother Theresa, but I can't vouch for that. Were I a believer, it would be on my flagstaff. As it is, it just goes up on my wall as an Important Reminder.
quote:People are often unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered; Forgive them anyway.
If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives; Be kind anyway.
If you are successful, you will win some false friends and some true enemies; Succeed anyway.
If you are honest and frank, people may cheat you; Be honest and frank anyway.
What you spend years building, someone could destroy overnight; Build anyway.
If you find serenity and happiness, they may be jealous; Be happy anyway.
The good you do today, people will often forget tomorrow; Do good anyway.
Give the world the best you have, and it may never be enough; Give the world the best you've got anyway.
You see, in the final analysis, it is between you and God;
posted
Man alive, I love Hatrack. Y'all completely rock!
I am very blessed that my ward is generally liberal. Actually, there are two halves (really) - the graduated from college, mid-twenties professionals who live in downtown Dallas and have good jobs (or else you can't afford to live there), and the just-graduated-from-high-school 18-21 year-olds who are going to some of the schools here in town. The younger half seem to reflect the unforgiving attitudes described by some people here, while the graduated 20something professionals don't. In a way, that makes sense. By very definition, the professionals did not marry young the summer after sophomore year - in a sense, we are by definition not part of that greater culture described. The e-mail was sent out by one of the 18 year olds.
I did write an e-mail to the activities chair thanking him for his help, telling him how it went, and asking what was going on. He said the talent show was being organized by someone very young, very excited, and who didn't understand what the thing on Saturday was about. He had his doubts about having the same activity two weeks in a row, but she's new to the ward and eager, so he figured it would do greater harm to call it off. I feel much better.
Scott, I'm not asking for judgement of the girl. I just wanted opinions from my tribe on that puzzling world out there.
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posted
My personal guess, having encountered some anti-artist resentment before, is that the author of the E-mail assumed that the event you promoted -- to showcase "artists" in your ward -- was designed to focus on ACTUAL, non-amateur artists, or people who thought they were, and therefore exclude people who just liked to write the occasional poem.
In other words, he thought your event was for people who -- as artists -- took art seriously. Since he doesn't take art seriously, he felt like you were telling him he couldn't participate.
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posted
You know, sometimes I read threads like these (or hear similar conversations) and wonder whether I've been really lucky, or just really clueless, in the wards I've lived in. Maybe both. I've never been particularly good at picking up on social currents--I have a personal oblivion field about a mile in diameter.
But I'm just gobsmacked at stuff like what LMA talks about running into. LMA, I grew up in Santa Maria (which may be near you). Now I live in northern CA. I suppose that everyone knows that I spend most of my time reading anything I can get my hands on. My house is messy and uncoordinated, DangerGirl's hair is too (owing to my amateur talents at haircutting). The comments I make in YW tend to be on the oddball side (I told the Beehives all about about women's suffrage in Utah, ak!), and I can't make a cute handout with a candy-bar pun to save my life. No one seems to mind. Maybe I'm missing something, though.
We took a trip to Salt Lake last week and stayed with friends. I don't think I'd last a week.
Non-tole-painters of the Church, unite!
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posted
I think... California is different. If dangermom and Zalmoxis were suddenly placed in Anne Kate's ward, I'll bet it'd be different.
Added: My ward is a mix, but generally good. One of my closest friends here is the Relief Society president, and that so, so helps. She's like my friend Molly - looks very, very Mormon on the outside, almost cutesy, but is very funny, snarky, and compassionate on inside. It's amazing how that makes things better.
posted
ClaudiaTherese! I'm SO thrilled to see that somewhere other than on the poster on my wall!! It's what I look to when I get really frustrated with things (which is often lately).
posted
Oh, California's different, all right, but is it all that different? LMA lives in CA. Maybe we vary more with geography (even leaving out the obvious far end of the spectrum, like SF/Berkeley)?
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posted
Incidentally, kat, that sounds like a phenomenal evening and I'm impressed. If we weren't all such timid, performance-shy, talentless people, I'd try to pull it off here. Sports are off for the season, so our only singles activities are movies and card games. *dies of monotony* *acknowledges, however, that can come up with no better ideas* Posts: 2762 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
California is different, and different parts of California are very different - yes, even aside from the Bay Area example dangermom excludes.
This is not exclusive to the church, either. Culturally, different parts of the state are very different. When I joined the church, I lived in southern California. It didn't seem to matter so much there that I was not your typical Mormon female. But then I moved here to the San Joaquin Valley, and ran into a brick wall of culture shock. Here, it seems like the members of the church are determined to be more Utah-Mormon than the stereotype of ultra-conservative (socially and politically) Utah Mormons. And they tend to be very in-your-face about it.
Which is the problem I have with the whole situation. I wouldn't care if I were just left out of things because I don't fit in. Being an only child, I do the loner thing pretty well anyway. But this is a situation, as I said, where there are actual efforts to intrude into my life and change me into what they think a good Mormon should be. And yes, ak, I know that some of the crap they've been shoveling isn't doctrine. But they seem to think it is. And as I said, I don't have the energy to be around that all the time. I think God understands that. It isn't that I'm completely inactive or anything, but I just can't do it every Sunday, because I don't like leaving church angry. And I can't help getting angry over it sometimes.
Although, I have to say that there is still some hope. A couple of months ago, someone quoted Dumbledore in a sacrament meeting talk, and no one batted an eye. But I thought some of the sisters were going to pass out one day in Relief Society (I teach second Sundays), when I asked them to get up in the middle of the lesson and rearrange themselves into disucssion groups. This upset of the usual pattern of teacher talks and sisters sit and try not to look bored really threw them. I was half-expecting to be released from my calling over it. That didn't happen. I'm still a little surprised that I was ever called to the position in the first place, though.
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That's life. And society. And people. Humans. It's just human.
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), the best way to react to such situations is for you and the others involved in your event to attend the talent show and laugh and clap and support those participate in this one. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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