It's a good reminder of what is being done to protect us and how this Christmas there are those of us that can't be with our families. I have a friend that will deploy in a few days, and another who deployed right before Thanksgiving. Please, don't ever forget that there are people out fighting for us right now. Some of which will never come back.
posted
Oh yeah, I kept the audio off. So, I don't know what song is playing. It's too easy to get a person to feel what you want them to, if you use music.
Posts: 1660 | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thank you for starting this thread, its far past time we stoped bickering about the war, and just thanked the people fighting it for risking their lives to protect Americas rights and freedoms, they are most defenitly the best of us all.
[ December 18, 2003, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Rhaegar The Fool ]
Posts: 1900 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
The audio is "both kinds, Country and Western" just as a warning. I'm really glad my husband and I were generally together when he was serving. Though we were apart our second wedding anniversary and the week I got out of the hospital. I'm really grateful we have a volunteer force.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
While I can appreciate the bravery of these soldiers to follow their orders and be willing to put themselves in harms way, I have to grimace every time I hear someone say or imply that the soldiers in Iraq are protecting us. I guess its just a beef I have with other conservatives who disagree. I wholeheartedly support the military, but not when it lets itself be used for non-strategic political games.
God bless our American service people and hopefully get them something worthwhile to do.
Posts: 369 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Can you edit that and take out the political stuff, this is a support thread, not a political one. God bless the soldiers.
Posts: 1900 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm sorry but it would be hypocritical for me not to ethically call something out every time I see it, especially if it is something that I feel is bad because too many people let it slip and start to believe it.
posted
Rhaegar, do you not think your first post on this thread constituted a political statement disguised as a support statement?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Of course not Tom, it was a cool-headed, hard-nosed appeal to good ol' common sense and decency Posts: 369 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
They ARE protecting us. Quite a few of the people who are over there trying to kill them would be here trying to kill us if they weren't there. We are like hobbits in the shire during the long years the Rangers were holding back the darkness, bless us, we have ceased to remember that we are being protected.
More or less the natural state of humanity is constant petty wars between clans, tribes, and kinship groups. Because we have managed to form a strong, effective, lasting society on a larger scale, we in the U.S. are insulated totally from that. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen elsewhere in the world. Our strong military is one very big reason we aren't exposed to that here. That and the fact that other generations before us were also willing to fight and die.
Freedom is definitely quite costly. I honor the fallen, and weep for them. I honor those who serve. They deserve all our thanks and honor, whether or not we give it to them. They are braving the death and chaos that exist outside our safe comfortable social construct so that we don't have to.
Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's a paranoid view that's already empirically false. They wouldn't be here attacking us since those are Iraqis and Iraqis had nothing to do 9-11, unless your George W Bush or a member of his Elite Cabal.
As for Afghanistan maybe, but please excuse me if I don't buy that terrorist networks will spring up anywhere George Bush happens to want to occupy.
Posts: 369 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
I started this thread in order to support those who are currently serving your country. I did not ask for your political insight. I did not say "come piss on my fire, Brian." No matter the reason for which they serve, the fact remains. These people are doing this in the belief that they fight for you. That is enough for most people to break-down and weap. But you show no human emotion toward those that strive to do a good deed for you. Brian, you are the type of person that would decline to name-calling after a stupid bickering match. You inevitably will find some fault in what I have said. It will be unfounded and trivial. Your comments insult me directly because I defend you. Show a little respect this Christmas!
GOD BLESS AMERICA!
Posts: 1660 | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Whatever the intention of the thread, once something like this is posted, it becomes political:
quote:Thank you for starting this thread, its far past time we stoped bickering about the war, and just thanked the people fighting it for risking their lives to protect Americas rights and freedoms, they are most defenitly the best of us all.
So, in other words, people opposed to the war should just shut up and take it, cause gosh darn it, our boys are dying over there!
But, the people who are opposed to it... aren't they trying to prevent these deaths? Which they see as needless?
The insinuation is that, once a war has begun, the chance to protest it is over. That's ridiculous.
Supporting soldiers, who have no choice in what wars they fight, that's good. They deserve our respect and gratitude for their willingness to fight.
But you have to protest what you think is wrong. If we all had to shut up and blindly accept every move our government made... what freedom, exactly, would these soldiers be defending?
Posts: 2220 | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
Just because Iraq did not directly involve itself with 9-11 does NOT mean that they weren't involved with terror.
Abu Nidal was hiding out there, they encouraged suicide bombers by paying large rewards to their families, and they had a direct hand in the attack on the USS Cole.
As for Iraq being non-strategic... in what world are you living? Oil has been *the* strategic resource since the turn of the last century... or were you too busy complaining about Haliburton's contracts to remember that they were an oil company?
Agree with the war or not, the Persian Gulf is and has been a majorly strategic region for some time now and will continue to be for the forseeable future. You may think Bush is making a mistake, but to call the region unimportant just shows your ignorance.
And in all your rush to criticize you are all overlooking the most fundamental facts: The Hussein regime was 10 years in non-compliance with UN Resolutions, they were sponsoring terroism, both monetarily and directly, they were taking potshots at American airmen trying to enforce UN resolutions in direct violation of their cease fire agreements, and the US was alone shouldering the burden for the UN... and no one discusses the cost of THAT very often on the internet site that so gleefully tallies up the "cost" of the war in Iraq as if we weren't going to be paying, feeding, and arming the soldiers fighting over there regardless of where they are stationed.
The simple truth is, far from being pre-emptive, this action was long overdue and, if Bush took advantage of renewed national resolve in the face of 9-11, that *was* strategic thinking... if you want to see an example of failing to think strategically, look at the Vietnam War.
There are plenty of threads on here to run down the war and the president. You can $h1t on people who wish to remember US troops this Christmas there to your heart's content. To do it here was extraordinarily bad form... I suppose you all feel compelled to rip yellow ribbons off the trees in your neighborhood and vandalize displays of American flags at car dealerships as well?
Posts: 2112 | Registered: Sep 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Your absolutely right. But if your going to protests the policy, you should take your fight to the policy makers, and leave your comments out of a forum that was set up only to appreciate our troops.
Posts: 1660 | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
"leave your comments out of a forum that was set up only to appreciate our troops."
Hm. I didn't get that impression, scott -- certainly not from you and Rhaegar. I got the impression that you wanted not only to publicly appreciate our troops, but implicitly criticize those who you don't think appreciate them enough. Certainly, this was Rhaegar's point.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks for pointing that out Tom, I only wanted people to see that slideshow. I wanted people to see what others were doing for them. Whether they appreciate it or not is up to them. I lost my cool with Brian and I appologize but I don't regret what I said because I meant it. It just happened that Brian sparked something in me this morning that has been festering for some time. I hope I haven't soured anyone.
Posts: 1660 | Registered: Jan 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm with Tom and Poly here . . . Rhaegar's first post was a political statement. BrianM did express admiration for the bravery of our troops, but he responded to the political statement.
(I don't agree, though, the opening post constitutes such a statement, really. If it is, it certainly is a mild and unoffensive one.)
I agree that this is not the place to debate the war, but some of the vehemence against BrianM is out of line.
Not that anybody asked for my two cents, but there you have them anyway.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
I presume from your eye rolling that you thought my last comments were histrionic, but I was directly addressing these comments from BrianM:
quote:I'm sorry but it would be hypocritical for me not to ethically call something out every time I see it, especially if it is something that I feel is bad because too many people let it slip and start to believe it.
If it was hypocritical for him to leave this thread alone, then it is also hypocritical for him to leave other displays of support for the troops alone.
Tom, Ayelar and others,
While Rhaegar's remarks could certainly be read that way, I think it's reaching for you to take them as an attack. It merely seemed to me he was expressing frustration at the amount of debate that has gone on and gratitude for someone who has simply decided to say "thank you".
To say that he has insinuated so much accusation in his brief remark of thanks is to attribute way too much subtlety and forethought. Ten will get you twenty that he just tossed that line off in a brief gush of appreciation, and you guys are treating it as if he was lying in wait to ambush you. [Edit to rephrase] I woukld expect members of hatrack, especially one as traveled as Tom, to have thicker skin than that.
[ December 19, 2003, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: T. Analog Kid ]
Posts: 2112 | Registered: Sep 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
You are making some assumptions about my political leanings. The thickness of my skin is not at issue here.
Rhaegar's statement was clearly a political one, and the whole reason I jumped in was to point out that it seems ujustified to jump all over BrianM for his statement but ignore Rhaegar's.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote: They ARE protecting us. Quite a few of the people who are over there trying to kill them would be here trying to kill us if they weren't there. We are like hobbits in the shire during the long years the Rangers were holding back the darkness, bless us, we have ceased to remember that we are being protected.
More or less the natural state of humanity is constant petty wars between clans, tribes, and kinship groups. Because we have managed to form a strong, effective, lasting society on a larger scale, we in the U.S. are insulated totally from that. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen elsewhere in the world. Our strong military is one very big reason we aren't exposed to that here. That and the fact that other generations before us were also willing to fight and die.
Freedom is definitely quite costly. I honor the fallen, and weep for them. I honor those who serve. They deserve all our thanks and honor, whether or not we give it to them. They are braving the death and chaos that exist outside our safe comfortable social construct so that we don't have to.
Bravo!
quote:BrianM,
I started this thread in order to support those who are currently serving your country. I did not ask for your political insight. I did not say "come piss on my fire, Brian." No matter the reason for which they serve, the fact remains. These people are doing this in the belief that they fight for you. That is enough for most people to break-down and weap. But you show no human emotion toward those that strive to do a good deed for you. Brian, you are the type of person that would decline to name-calling after a stupid bickering match. You inevitably will find some fault in what I have said. It will be unfounded and trivial. Your comments insult me directly because I defend you. Show a little respect this Christmas!
GOD BLESS AMERICA!
Again Bravo, and T Analog that is exactly what I was saying, I was simply sayng thank you for saying thank you. And let us all keep the trops in our prayers, whatever religion we may be.
Posts: 1900 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
BrianM, do you just seek for opputunities to attack Bush? Because the thanking the troops thread was way out of line, a straight out attack on the people who are dying in the service of oyur country! Your life! And your freedoms! Can't you just thank them for doing what they think is right?
(Edited for phraseology)
[ December 20, 2003, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: Rhaegar The Fool ]
Posts: 1900 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm sorry but this is a forum and I did feel obliged to comment.
About the military thing: I see the importance of having a national defense, it is voluntary. I know several people who left the military after the Afghan War when it was clear to them that the Iraq War was coming. They did not want to be used offensively and I wholeheartedly agree. There is no protection in an offensive war where there is not even a clear threat. They aren't even dying in our place since it's not the case that Iraqi terrorists are coming over here. No, I won't buy that link.
I find it ironic that scott has edited the title of this thread to make my posts look out of place and childish, yet he left the portion of his post which I specifically objected to unedited: "Please, don't ever forget that there are people out fighting for us right now." I have to assume this is not an accident. But then I guess that I hope that he wouldn't edit it in a fit of sarcasm to something like "please don't forget these idiot soldiers needlessly dying as political tools." That isn't what I'm saying either. Not trying to put words in your mouth, I just want to stop that train of thought before the track is laid.
posted
odouls, would it then be alright for me to say this video is a "disgusting" guilt trip since I had no choice whether or not these soldiers I'm paying are fighting yet I get to see the sad pictures of them bidding their families farewell? I guess you don't consider the fact that because I am so sympathetic toward that aspect of their lives is why I am so vehement about this.
posted
What I find noteworthy is that most if not all of the cursing and the judgmental statements . . . you are an SOAB, you are the type of person that does this, you are the type of person that does that, don't shit here, don't piss there, blah blah blah . . . are coming from the people accusing BrianM of poor taste. I mean, take a look back over this thread!
This is a thread to thank the troops for their willingness to give up their lives for what they perceive as protecting our freedom, you say? Take a look at Brian's unedited first post. Note that in addition to taking exception to the pro-war rhetoric already introduced by others, he specifically says:
quote:While I can appreciate the bravery of these soldiers to follow their orders and be willing to put themselves in harms way . . .
and
quote:God bless our American service people . . .
Yes, he makes some political statements, but he also posted in the vein that you are all saying is appropriate. Essentially, he is saying, I do not approve of this war, but I appreciate their courage and I wish for God's Blessing on them. And people are responding to him with scorn and vulgarity that strikes me as out of line.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:I wholeheartedly support the military, but not when it lets itself be used for non-strategic political games.
I'd just like to point out that the U.S. military does not "let itself be used"...it must obey the orders of its civilian leadership. If it does not, the alternative is a military that is either out of control or a military dictatorship, not the democracy that it has now. Short of an illegal order, the military must obey its government. That's why we don't have coups in the U.S....because the military knows it must obey its civilian leadership.
If you support the military, you must understand that it can do nothing else and still remain the honorable, effective force that it is.
Posts: 471 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
These are not mutually exclusive ideas (even though many would like to make it seem that way)
**Raises glass of eggnog**
Here's to the troops! Thanks for all their hard work and dedication in a trying and dangerous environment. May they be kept out of harm's way and may they return to their families and loved ones soon.
posted
Uh, yeah... for those of you railing about BrianM's "poor taste", it's worth noting that this thread had effectively died before TAK and The Fool started digging into BrianM again, long after the horse was calling Uncle.
If you care so much about this thread staying on the "support the troops" theme, then knock this bullying and name-calling the heck off!
Posts: 2220 | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, this thread has progressed predictably.
quote:can't you just thank them for doing what they think is right? You ungrateful SOAB.
I agree.
And while we're at it, let's not forget to thank the terrorists for putting their lives on the line to do what they think is right. We should all remember that many terrorists won't get to see much of their families for a while, because of their unrelenting dedication to fighting for their homeland and the values they believe in. Some will never come back. In fact, someone should make a video showing those poor terrorists having to leave their wives and children, and put it to some sappy music, so we can get out the completely nonpolitical message that everyone needs to put aside their political beliefs and support the terrorists.
I just wanted to take this opportunity to tell everyone that posted on this thread, read any posts on this thread, or read the title of this thread, that you're all evil, Hitler loving, blaspheming, Satan worshipping, child molesting, baby eating, seal clubbing, freedom hating, fornicating terrorist pedophiles. May a vagrant crap in your open car window on a hot summer day. I hope you all burn in Hell and spend the rest of eternity being violated by the Devil and all of his angels in a small smelly room while your mother watches.
Oh, and Merry Christmas. Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ayelar, my first post was 4 minutes after yours... you want to make it seem that *I* resurrected this supposedly dead thread?
whatever...
I tried to get everyone to back off and chuckle a little, too, but I don't see any of you, who are so ambushed and offended taking that opportunity for peace...
Icky, as for the "judgemental language", BrianM clearly stated that he felt like he had to kick sand on any tribute to American troops in Iraq or he would be a hypocrite. He can do that. And I absolutely *will* judge the actions he takes and the sides he chooses when he does so. I do not apologize for so doing. [edit] I also suggest you take a poll of American service people and see how many of them feel supported and comforted by the words "God bless our American service people, and give them something worthwhile to do" and how many of them feel insulted and denigrated for their sacrifices.
[ December 19, 2003, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: T. Analog Kid ]
Posts: 2112 | Registered: Sep 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Brian, I admire your beliefs, you show an amount of stick-to-itness that most of us don't have. I edited the thread-name to, in a sense, put up a fence. In order to keep any other comments like yours out. I'm not curtailing your free speech, in fact I've heard your argument from many other people's mouths. I'm not running to the Moderators in protest because, what discussion would you have if you didn't have a 'con' point-of-view. Your comments have stirred my emotions, I find it rare that people do that. I changed the Thread name because I don't want to fog the glass any more than it is already.
quote:Tresopax, that was uncalled for and childish.
Certainly not... It was just a nonpolitical reminder to support those trying to make the world a better place, regardless of political alignments, no?
Are you suggesting you don't support the terrorists? Isn't that selfish? I mean, I understand why one might think they are doing bad things - heck I certainly think that. But can't you support them as people sacrificing all for what they think is right, even if you simultaneously oppose terrorism - just like you are asking anti-war folks to do for our troops?
posted
I think it is a)impossible and b) against the intrinsic nature of this forum to censor non vulgar free speech in any thread. However, I can't believe the vulgarity and personal attacts that have been stooped to on this thread (even if they were in acronyms) and have been debating about using the whistle blowing icon as a result. I haven't yet and am giving people a chance to retract their insults voluntarily.
It is possible to be IN the military honorably serving the country and still be engaged in a military action that one personally disagrees with. That doesn't mean you don't do your job. But it does mean that soldiers are allowed to think their own thoughts even if not allowed to voice objections to a superior officer. I know soldiers who do exactly that. To assume every soldier in the military uniquivicably agrees with the present administrations policy is ludicrous. This administration would also have you believe that no soldiers are gay either and that "don't ask don't tell" is working.
So I support the soldier over there in Iraq, doing their daily grind to their best of their ability because it is the job they signed up for.
Do I support all of the actions of the present administration. NO.
Do I support Brian M for his right to say what he thinks in a thread like this. YES!!!!
AJ
Face it scotneb. You will never have a hatrack thread without a dissenting opinion, unless it is total fluff. If you don't want dissenting opinions on the subject, delete this thread and don't start another.
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
