LAWTEY, Fla. - Nearly 800 inmates from 26 faiths attended the dedication ceremony of what Gov. Jeb Bush called the nation's first faith-based prison — a facility focused on encouraging the spirituality of inmates of all faiths.
Along with regular prayer sessions, the Lawtey Correctional Institution will offer religious studies, choir practice, religious counseling and other spiritual activities seven days a week. Participation is voluntary and inmates are free to transfer out.
"This is not just fluffy policy, this is serious policy," Bush told the crowd on Wednesday. "For the people who are skeptical about this initiative, I am proud that Florida is the home to the first faith-based prison in the United States."
Marlin Cliburn, inmate No. 575042, recently transferred to Lawtey, where he is serving 6 1/2 years for aggravated assault, auto theft and fleeing officers. "My life was headed down the wrong road," said Cliburn, a Baptist. "I've kind of seen the light. I've been screwing up my whole life. I see this as a turning point in my life."
Other prisons and programs have used religious thinking to try to turn inmates away from crime. The Prison Fellowship Ministries runs its Christ-centered InnerChange Freedom Initiative in prisons in Minnesota, Kansas, Iowa and Texas.
The idea of promoting God behind bars has a long history. From 1829 to 1913, for instance, the Eastern State Penitentiary in Philadelphia used a Quaker-inspired system in which prisoners were isolated from each other and made to perform labor in hopes of encouraging spiritual reflection and change.
Inmates at the Lawtey prison in north Florida were told more than a month ago that it would be completely converted to a faith-based institution, prompting 111 to transfer out. But their beds were quickly filled with volunteers from other prisons.
"We've developed a cocoon, a place where they can practice their faith and not have the severe negative pressures and interactions that naturally take place in some of our institutions," said Correction Secretary James Crosby Jr.
Howard Simon, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites) of Florida, called the prison part of "a major constitutional showdown" over government funding for religious programs.
The ACLU is weighing the possibility of filing a lawsuit, waiting for the results of a test case challenging a state voucher program that gives students taxpayer money to attend religious schools.
But officials hope the program will lead to fewer repeat offenders.
The governor said about 38 percent of Florida's released inmates will be back in prison at some point.
"Wouldn't it be nice if we could figure out a way to lower that 38 percent closer to zero percent, for your family and your community?" Bush asked to rousing applause Wednesday.
During the dedication ceremony, many prisoners jumped to their feet and clapped in rhythm as a gospel singer sang "His Eye Is on the Sparrow." Some shouted "Sing it!" and "Amen!"
The title comes from a Friscan instant message sent to me between gales of laughter.
Is this as wacky as I think it is? I assume "faith-based prison" means "fundamentalist Christian," of course -- like hell a Bush is going to offer equal opportunity of religion to inmates. Though, personally, I'd love to see an Islamic ([pun] or what the hell, Satanist [/pun]) prison put up just to screw with the batty Religious Right.
I'm really torn between laughing and blinking. On the one hand, I guess brainwashing inmates into docile behavior isn't exactly harmful, not when compared to what could happen instead. And I'm actually a fan of the so-called "honor yards" put up for well-behaved prisoners, though I think they need to loosen the restrictions (such as age) on those places. But a Baptist prison? Good lord.
That's a pun.
Thoughts? I'm against this, if only because religion needs to be kept the hell out of public institutions, but I can see the benefits in brainwashing convicts. If they set up privately-funded prisons that receive no tax-payer money to do so, I might be more open such a venture.
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I'm guessing as the number of violent crimes soars, people will learn to welcome things like this even if they disagree with them in principle.
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You, Macc. Should the ends justify the means?
If we instituted harsher, "eye for an eye" penalties for crime, it would easily lead to fewer instances. Shouldn't we be able to set aside our principles for something like that?
I think so, yet we only give the death penalty to a very small percentage of murderers.
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I think this is bad because once the state starts peddling religion, then both the state and religion will suffer by that association.
I think the way things are now, there are plenty of opportunities for inmates to practice their faith. Also to pretend they've gotten religion in order to get easier treatment, to convince parole boards they are safe to release, and so on.
There's also plenty of opportunity in prison (which are places as near to a classical description of hell as any you are likely to see on earth) to evaluate exactly how successful is the strategy of always taking advantage of people whenever you can, to get whatever you can, without regard to any principles or standards of behavior. People in prison nearly all have the habit and mentality of preying on people whenever and however they can. Prison life is naturally hellish as a result.
It's also true that God can redeem the very worst of us. And that "they go into the kingdom of heaven before ye." So prison for some people can be a transformative experience.
But when the government starts making religion a part of its correctional policy, ugh. Shades of Big Brother, shades of the valiant-worker-confronting-difficulties-art that the Soviet Union promulgated, shades of the Thought Police. This is an association from which neither religion nor the state can benefit.
By making it official policy of the department of corrections, you rob religion of something vital to its message and function. You make it something it's not and can't be. Something authoritarian and oppressive. It immediately ceases to be religion and becomes something bad instead. Carrot and stick, coercion, brainwashing, etc.
I studied the Jim Jones community in the last month or so when the anniversary of their mass suicide was being acknowledged in the press. Religion used as a way of policing and correcting people reminds me of how things were run in Jim Jones' compound in Guyana more than anything else. So I think the reference to suicide bombers is apt.
[ December 26, 2003, 05:46 AM: Message edited by: ana kata ]
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quote: like hell a Bush is going to offer equal opportunity of religion to inmates.
Lalo, currently state and federal prisons already allow "freedom of worship" of most all religions within their confines. This includes Christianity, Islam, and many other sects. Many have worship groups. The man who killed my father is currently still practicing his Wicca religion within the prison, with the state's blessing. They have to allow it under civil liberties...
I don't really see how the prison you describe is going to be any different than what exists.
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Hmmm. Crime rates aren't soaring. I do believe they are decreasing. NCJRS Stats But different crime types show different results, so go ahead and take a peek if you like.
Sensationalized overkill reporting has increased, however.
Religion and other life-altering practices should be included in penitentiaries, including hard labor, education, individual/group therapy, etc. However, the prison population should also be restricted to violent offenders.
Personally, I'd like to see much more money going into the prevention services at the beginning (you know, babies/children, healthy families, living wage jobs, decent educational opportunities, a medical/dental provider for each person . . . )
quote:Well, for one thing, the practices of the Christian faith are MANDATORY in the prison he describes.
quote:Nearly 800 inmates from 26 faiths attended the dedication ceremony of what Gov. Jeb Bush called the nation's first faith-based prison — a facility focused on encouraging the spirituality of inmates of all faiths.
Tom, huh? That's not what I read. Yes, they interviewed a Baptist in the article, but I didn't get the impression that it was a Christian-only program. Where did you get that Christian practices are mandatory?
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Because not engaging in Christian practices will result in significant social ostracism; how many Buddhist chorales do you know? There MAY be a critical mass of Muslim inmates, which will keep that a viable minority there, but I don't pretend for a second to think that the quality of Muslim religious instruction or outside interest and support will be as high in a region that's overwhelmingly Christian.
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quote: Nearly 800 inmates from 26 faiths attended the dedication ceremony of what Gov. Jeb Bush called the nation's first faith-based prison — a facility focused on encouraging the spirituality of inmates of all faiths.
Fishtail: I read the same thing you did. I also read that out of 800 inmates only 111 opted to leave the prison (and those places rapidly filled by transfers in). So I get the impression that the state is making this a choice for inmates. Bush and the state are not forcing religion on anyone. It is completely optional.
But Lalo and TomD and others like them who are narrowminded toward religious types and believe Christianity and religion will cause the downfall of the western world will never want believe that faith in a higher power can change a man's heart.
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Well, Tom, that MAY happen, but as there WILL actually be other faiths represented who COULD be as adamant about practicing their own traditions, I don't believe you and will reserve judgement to see what ACTUALLY happens.
Especially since, even though it's a faith-based initiative, it's still being put in place by a government entity, who would only benefit by having it be as diverse as possible. If nothing else, statistically, Islam should make quite a showing.
I will concede that those of Wiccan faith will likely be underrepresented, but I don't see them being forced to adhere to practices that are not of their faith, social ostracism or no.
Perhaps they will be evangelized to, which you seem to see as a violation of civil rights, but like the rest of us, they will be free to reject such messages...and they apparently can request transfer, so I honestly don't see how they can be forced to MANDATORILY practice the Christian faith.
No offense, but once again you're stating speculation and opinion instead of fact.
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"I don't believe you and will reserve judgement to see what ACTUALLY happens."
Tell you what. I'll put money where my mouth is. Three years from now, if this colossal bureaucratic monstrosity hasn't burned to the ground or been swallowed by the pits of Hell, I'm willing to give you ten bucks if it's not 90% Christian, and if all but one member of its senior staff isn't a Christian. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote: "Wouldn't it be nice if we could figure out a way to lower that 38 percent closer to zero percent, for your family and your community?" Bush asked to rousing applause Wednesday.
Every other kind of rehabilitative program is being cut or phased out...except for 'faith based programs'. In some states, the only choice for inmates who want to get out of the general population into a religious community based prison population to better their lives is to go through a Christian program called Inner Change. Inmates who go through Inner Change often have the inside track to certain state based rehab programs once they get outside.
I am glad that the government is taking an interest in spiritual rehabilitation. I just think that they shouldn't do it at the expense of vocational rehab. I think they should make sure that people of all faiths have a chance at getting involved in their religion, as this facility may be trying to do. Not sure. I need to see more info.
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Even though "Participation is voluntary and inmates are free to transfer out," this doesn't ameliorate the fact that government money and government effort are being used to fund religious practice and probably religious conversion. The proper way to bring religion into prisons is to allow private organizations to minister to inmates.
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quote:Tell you what. I'll put money where my mouth is. Three years from now, if this colossal bureaucratic monstrosity hasn't burned to the ground or been swallowed by the pits of Hell, I'm willing to give you ten bucks if it's not 90% Christian, and if all but one member of its senior staff isn't a Christian.
What if it is 90% Christian, and all of the staff *is* Christian, and yet inmates of all faiths are using their own practices of worship? That would mean that Christian practices are NOT mandatory, would it not? How does being of a minority faith, yet being allowed to practice that faith, constitute being forced to practice another faith?
See, if inmates of non-Christian faiths are practicing freely, and the staff doesn't prevent them from doing so, then you'd be wrong anyway.
I don't understand your bet.
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Tom, would you have as much of a problem under Destineer's scenario? Or only if a majority of the inmates administered to happened to be or convert to Christianity?
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quote:But Lalo and TomD and others like them who are narrowminded toward religious types and believe Christianity and religion will cause the downfall of the western world will never want believe that faith in a higher power can change a man's heart.
Heh! Yes, Krank. We're just like the bad guys in badly written religious stories, we just like to bury our heads in the sand and hate people. We even ask questions like "But why would Jesus want to save a sinner like me?" (Taken verbatim from the religious propaganda I've come across -- it's strange that not one of the sinners interviewed by a proselytizing savior asks a reasonable question.)
But I'm going off track.
Actually, like I said, I can see this as an invaluable tool for brainwashing inmates. What I'm curious about, though, is why exactly we need religious fundamentalist prisons -- didn't Farmgirl just say we have freedom and opportunity of religion in our current system?
And I'm more than leery of letting my tax dollars go toward any fundamentalist institition. We already have religion in prisons; a friend of mine is a chaplain in a nearby prison, though I'm not sure if he's paid by the Church or by federal money. Why do we need to start fundamentalist prisons? What purpose does this serve but to masturbate the Religious Right?
Though, depending on how well the inmates are brainwashed, I guess there are potential upsides to the matter.
What I'm most worried about is that this will turn out to have -- if it doesn't already -- the same "freedom of religion" children are allowed in the pledge of allegiance. Remember? If you're not Christian or Jewish, when the time comes to pledge allegiance to their gods, you can just shut up.
While I doubt Krank or others are particularly worried about a fundamentalist Christian monopoly on prisons (though I'd love to see what would happen if a fundamentalist Islamic prison were to pop up), I'm really worried that this is just a power play by religious fundamentalists to further degrade the damn necessary wall between church and state.
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Frisco, in my case it wouldn't require setting aside my principles to have harsher punishments for criminals. Perhaps it would for some people. I suppose there are limits, but I guess I set them much farther out than you.
Lalo, I suspect the benefit being touted is that if these people can be successfully indoctrinated in a religion that forbids their criminal acts, they will stop committing those acts. It may even be true. Of course, they might just find a way of justifying what they want to do--a worrying vision comes to mind of serial killers getting their jollies by killing abortionists. "He deserved it! We're on your side now!" The pro-choicers would really have us by the gonads then... Posts: 1041 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:I assume "faith-based prison" means "fundamentalist Christian," of course -- like hell a Bush is going to offer equal opportunity of religion to inmates.
Why do you assume this? Do you mean that it will only allow Christian fundementalism? That it will encourage only that? I'm neither for nor against it at the moment, but your knee-jerk reaction to it is rather disconcerting.
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quote:Lalo, I suspect the benefit being touted is that if these people can be successfully indoctrinated in a religion that forbids their criminal acts, they will stop committing those acts. It may even be true.
Actually, I'm confident it's true -- I've repeated many times that a potential upside to this is the brainwashing of convicts. I'm just not all that sure that the ends justify the means.
quote:Why do you assume this? Do you mean that it will only allow Christian fundementalism? That it will encourage only that? I'm neither for nor against it at the moment, but your knee-jerk reaction to it is rather disconcerting.
It's an assumption I don't find at all inaccurate -- what's the strongest fundamentalist religious movement in the US? Hell, what's really the only fundamentalist religious movement in the US with any real political power?
I'm sure they'll nod their heads and include a couple non-Christian denominations to make up 5-10% of the prison, if only to show they aren't bigots -- the same way they make sure to put black people onstage during Republican conventions -- but somehow I doubt this is anything but a movement to further fundamentalist Christianity by harnessing the power of the state.
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Lalo, if you are willing to believe that the benefit is real, why can you not believe that the people behind the idea are honest in proposing it--that they just want to decrease crime? Why must it be a fundamentalist conspiracy?
And there is a conspiracy, I have come to believe, though I don't know its strength. But I have reason to think that its methods would be different.
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Conspiracy? This is a political power play, and a smart one -- they know no liberal's going to stand by and let them mix state and religion, so they raise this issue for the liberals to expend time and money and media attention on. The more liberals fight this, the more anti-Christian they appear, scaring more Christians into the arms of the Religious Right. It's damn smart. Liberals are on the defensive, the Religious Right wins no matter how this issue comes out, and the wall between state and religion crumbles that much more.
As far as your first question goes, while this is unquestionably a political move, even if it were meant to help decrease crime there are better and smarter way to go about it. The questionable ends aren't justified by the sacrifices in secular government that such an act would necessitate.
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Huh. This is a weird thread title. For a weird thread. From a practical standpoint, I'm kind of worried about the linkage of religion and prison. People do a lot of stuff in prison that doesn't persist when they are removed from that milieu.
My main philosophical problem with it is that it seems to give inmates more choice than I assume they have. I mean, by that logic, why not have an elective white or black prison? (The logic being categories of discrimination disallowed by the constitution).
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I think Lalo would condemn Bush if he declared an end to prayer in schools because frankly Lalo seems to argue with any and everything someone with the last name of Bush does. Really, how do you equate a faith based prison with American suicide bombers. It always irks me when the government encourages religion, however if some of these despicable people find a way to become less despicable be it through hard work or Christian prayer I have to be happy about that. Furthermore, I say that as a Jew and the fact that Judaism is going to be rarely practiced there doesn't bother me that much. Furthermore, I think its made pretty clear that you don't have to be Christian. Furthermore, even if you did its pretty clear you don't have to be there period.
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Thank you, NFL, for proving once more how little you read.
quote:I think Lalo would condemn Bush if he declared an end to prayer in schools because frankly Lalo seems to argue with any and everything someone with the last name of Bush does. Really, how do you equate a faith based prison with American suicide bombers.
Let's refer to the first sentence I posted, shall we?
quote:The title comes from a Friscan instant message sent to me between gales of laughter.
quote:It always irks me when the government encourages religion, however if some of these despicable people find a way to become less despicable be it through hard work or Christian prayer I have to be happy about that.
And yet again, I've enumerated successful brainwashing as the only positive side to this issue that I've yet been able to see.
quote:Furthermore, I say that as a Jew and the fact that Judaism is going to be rarely practiced there doesn't bother me that much.
Has anyone here expressed dismay that their particular religion won't be the type espoused by these fundamentalist prisons?
quote:Furthermore, I think its made pretty clear that you don't have to be Christian. Furthermore, even if you did its pretty clear you don't have to be there period.
Then why have them at all? As Farmgirl and others have pointed out, there are more-than-adequate religious sects at every prison -- be you Catholic or Wiccan, you can have your religious flavor served in prison. There's no need for this fundamentalist movement, except to switch the current model of religion visiting a state institution to religion becoming a state institution -- a move that will envigorate the Religious Right and further deplete an exhausting liberal fight to protect civil rights and secular government.
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First, the title of this thread is misleading at best. Nothing in the article suggests training suicide bombers and Lalo fails to even address the issue of suicide bombing, or Islam. A better title might have been "Faith-based prisons—a threat to the separation of church and state.” As I see it, there are two major issues here: 1. Does this prison constitute establishment of religion? 2. Does religious training decrease the rate of recidivism (committing another crime)?
My answers: 1. I do not believe that LCI’s program in and of itself establishes religion because prisoners who are at LCI choose to be there. Prisoners are permitted to transfer out if they do not want to participate in religious training. There is some evidence to support the claim that this is a Conservative Christian prison. Based on the information from the LCI web site, the programs with additional information are: Active T.D. Jakes Satellite – Christian background, runs “multidenominational church" About T.D. Jakes Way Home Bridge Builders – A 12-step program to recovery Way Home Bridge Builders Both of these programs seem to be of a conservative Christian flavor. It would perhaps be useful for this prison, or similar prisons to institute Islam-based, Hindu-based, Zen-based, etc. religious programs so that the Florida State Department Of Corrections serves all denominations and cannot be accused of establishment of religion. As this is a pilot program, choosing a religion with a large amount of public support is probably a good decision. Florida is largely Christian, and there will be money to support these efforts. 2. I’d like to see a study done comparing recidivism rates of inmates of similar backgrounds who have received no training, Christian training, Islamic training, and non-religious 12-step training. I believe that one of the goals of prisons should be to teach inmates not to commit crimes. I’m for programs that do that.
Finally, I’d like to address some other issues: Storm Saxon wrote:
quote:I am glad that the government is taking an interest in spiritual rehabilitation. I just think that they shouldn't do it at the expense of vocational rehab.
You note that this prison has no vocational of academic programs. However, LCI has never had that traditional type of training. They always have (since 1973) provided on-the-job training through the PRIDE program ( PRIDE ). Most of the inmates in this facility have had academic and vocational training at other institutions and are at LCI to get real-life experience (a necessary item on a resume). The ‘cuts’ described in the article you cite will not affect any of the PRIDE programs because these programs actually operate at a small profit. This profit is returned to the state.
Lalo wrote:
quote:I can see this as an invaluable tool for brainwashing inmates.
Please define the word “brainwashing” and provide evidence that this actually occurs in any prison. You're worried about whether kids have to say "under god" in the pledge, yet you support wholesale brainwashing of inmates? I'm not sure I understand your logic.
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I'm not sure I'd be proud of the inmates being part of the PRIDE program. We just had a big newspaper article on how the board members may be funneling money back to their own pockets through PRIDE subsidaries.
I'd also like to point out that FLorida is refered to as part of the Bible Belt for a reason. Go ahead, walk into a small town here and insult God. You won't last five minutes. I grew up just south of Inglis where the mayor banned Satan from the town. You may not agree with our devotion, but you must admit the devotion exists.
While I've never been to prison personally, I've heard it's a pretty terrible place. Shawshank Redemption portrayed some convicts as serial rapists preying on weaker inmates. American History X had rampant racism and gang violence. Is this really where we want to try to teach people to follow the standards of non-violence every major religion I am familiar with endorses? If we have a chance to save even one soul from a cycle of perpetual violence, crime, and poverty, I say we take it. Even if we have to throw tax dollars to the church to do it.
But then, I voted for Bush. (Jeb and W.) What do I know?
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quote: Most of the inmates in this facility have had academic and vocational training at other institutions and are at LCI to get real-life experience (a necessary item on a resume). The ‘cuts’ described in the article you cite will not affect any of the PRIDE programs because these programs actually operate at a small profit. This profit is returned to the state.
Thanks for a great response, skeptic.
How do you know that they've had those programs at other facilities when there've been cuts to those programs at other facilities, and they aren't being offered at this facility?
Second, I don't know about you, but I'm not sure of the ethics of offering jobs to prisoners where they will be payed less than market rate. In effect, companies are offering jobs to a population that has no other choice but those jobs if they want to do anything other than stamp license plates. So, to my mind, those companies are cheating the market. Think about it. The prisoners are being trained at a job that is being done by prisoners. So, when they get out of prison, I wonder if those jobs will be available to them as non-prisoners? Why would the company employ law abiding civilians on the outside when they can pay what they want to prisoners?
I am all for ojt in prisons, but if a company is going to do it, they should pay the prisoners market rate. Otherwise, they are profiteering.
I also wonder if PRIDE programs are equitably destributed to the rest of the prison population or whether those kinds of jobs go to the faith based (Christian?) populations first?
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quote:First, the title of this thread is misleading at best. Nothing in the article suggests training suicide bombers and Lalo fails to even address the issue of suicide bombing, or Islam. A better title might have been "Faith-based prisons—a threat to the separation of church and state.”
It's been pointed out twice now that the title comes from an IM conversation with me. It's the first thing that came to mind when I read the article, and it gave us both a good chuckle.
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quote:It's been pointed out twice now that the title comes from an IM conversation with me. It's the first thing that came to mind when I read the article, and it gave us both a good chuckle.
Oh, now I understand what Lalo meant when he wrote:
quote:The title comes from a Friscan instant message sent to me between gales of laughter.
Now I get it. A “Friscan instant message” is one from Frisco. Clearly you and Lalo understood the meaning of the title as well as what a "Friscan instant message" was. I now understand the latter as well. Unfortunately, I still fail to see the connection between the title and the body of Lalo’s post. I stand by my statement that it is a misleading title. If you’d care to share some inside information with the rest of us, perhaps you could enlighten us and we could share in your gales of laughter.
Storm Saxon Wrote:
quote:How do you know that they've had those programs at other facilities when there've been cuts to those programs at other facilities, and they aren't being offered at this facility?
I know that those programs exist now, and existed in the past because you can’t cut funding to programs that don’t exist. What is in doubt due to funding cuts is their future existence. My point was that you seemed to be suggesting that the cuts directly affected LCI. That’s not possible since those programs never existed at LCI. Please don’t misconstrue this to mean that I am for cutting funding to educational and vocational programs. I was simply pointing out what appeared to be a logical inconsistency in your argument and was seeking clarification from you.
Storm Saxon Wrote:
quote:So, to my mind, those companies are cheating the market.
You may have a point here, however I’d like you to consider that 1) The quality of the product produced is typically at the low end of the spectrum. I’ve taken my car to the local Vo-Tech school to get the oil changed for $5 (essentially the cost of the oil & filter). They undercut the price of Jiffy Lube, sure, but I’ve had to tighten the drain plug on occasions when the student didn’t do the job very well. Same goes for the Vo-Tech salon, restaurant, etc. Sometimes the quality is excellent, sometimes not. 2) The primary product of programs like PRIDE is not textiles, printed material, etc. The primary product is a trained and experienced worker who is marketable to the private sector. There is clear evidence that convicts who are prepared for employment have a lower rate of recidivism than those who are not. In one study by Harer (1994) , “inmates who secured employment in preparation of their release recidivated at a lower rate (27.6 percent) than those who did not secure employment (53.9 percent).”
Storm Saxon Wrote:
quote:... if a company is going to do it, they should pay the prisoners market rate. Otherwise, they are profiteering.
I would suggest to you that the market rate for an untrained ex-convict may well be below minimum wage. If you can provide evidence to suggest that it is not, I may agree with your accusation of profiteering.
Avid Reader Wrote:
quote:We just had a big newspaper article on how the board members may be funneling money back to their own pockets through PRIDE subsidaries.
Clearly, these corrupt individuals should be arrested, charged, tried, and sentenced if found guilty. This does not necessarily make PRIDE or its’ subsidiaries a bad thing.
As for Florida being part of the Bible Belt—if this was directed at me, I’m not sure why. I said in my original post that Florida was strongly Christian. I admit the devotion exists. In fact, I think this is why the pilot program for a faith-based initiative would logically be Christian-based. I must be missing your point. Please explain.
I’m still waiting for folks to address what I see as the heart of the debate here: Skeptic wrote: 1. Does this prison constitute establishment of religion? 2. Does religious training decrease the rate of recidivism (committing another crime)?
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"Unfortunately, I still fail to see the connection between the title and the body of Lalo’s post."
Really? Perhaps it's because you don't consider madrasas to be state-funded religious institutions dedicated to the "retraining" of the uneducated. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How do you know that they've had those programs at other facilities when there've been cuts to those programs at other facilities, and they aren't being offered at this facility? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know that those programs exist now, and existed in the past because you can’t cut funding to programs that don’t exist. What is in doubt due to funding cuts is their future existence. My point was that you seemed to be suggesting that the cuts directly affected LCI. That’s not possible since those programs never existed at LCI. Please don’t misconstrue this to mean that I am for cutting funding to educational and vocational programs. I was simply pointing out what appeared to be a logical inconsistency in your argument and was seeking clarification from you.
Sorry for the confusion. I agree with you that thse programs never existed at LCI. Whether they should might be a different story. I wasn't suggesting that they had been cut from that prison. What I'm suggesting, based off of the Mother Jones article (which unfortunately is not reproduced in its entirety online), the fact that programs are being cut elsewhere, and the fact that this new faith based prison is being opened, is that funds that were earmarked for education and/or non-denominational vocation training seems to now being earmarked for this faith based prison and other faith-based programs.
quote: Storm Saxon Wrote:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So, to my mind, those companies are cheating the market. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You may have a point here, however I’d like you to consider that 1) The quality of the product produced is typically at the low end of the spectrum. I’ve taken my car to the local Vo-Tech school to get the oil changed for $5 (essentially the cost of the oil & filter). They undercut the price of Jiffy Lube, sure, but I’ve had to tighten the drain plug on occasions when the student didn’t do the job very well. Same goes for the Vo-Tech salon, restaurant, etc. Sometimes the quality is excellent, sometimes not. 2) The primary product of programs like PRIDE is not textiles, printed material, etc. The primary product is a trained and experienced worker who is marketable to the private sector. There is clear evidence that convicts who are prepared for employment have a lower rate of recidivism than those who are not. In one study by Harer (1994) , “inmates who secured employment in preparation of their release recidivated at a lower rate (27.6 percent) than those who did not secure employment (53.9 percent).”
Totally agree. I don't take issue with the vocational training and/or convicts working for a living. What I take issue with is that there seems to be some profiteering from people being in prison, and this seems, to me, to be unethical and unwise.
quote: Storm Saxon Wrote:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ... if a company is going to do it, they should pay the prisoners market rate. Otherwise, they are profiteering. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would suggest to you that the market rate for an untrained ex-convict may well be below minimum wage. If you can provide evidence to suggest that it is not, I may agree with your accusation of profiteering.
Again, I don't disagree with you. I definitely believe in rehab.
Let me repeat, I don't take issue with rehab in general. What is my concern is that the state is providing Christian/religious prisoners with more opportunities than the non-Christian prisoners; that the state is giving more effective rehabilitation to Christian/religious prisoners than it is giving to those who are not. For instance, in the Mother Jones article that I mentioned, convicts in the Inner Change program(which appears to be a different program than the TD Jakes one?)had access to a whole slew of perks that the non Inner Change inmates did not--pizza parties, music, dedicated rehab staff, affection and recognition of their worth as a human being. All these things can, and should, be available to all non-problem inmates. In sum, while I don't disagree with faith based rehab, I don't want it to happen at the exclusion of other inmates rehab opportunities.
I think we basically agree but may be talking around one another.
quote: 1. Does this prison constitute establishment of religion? 2. Does religious training decrease the rate of recidivism (committing another crime)?
Let's just say that we find a clear cut, no way it can't be true link between 'religious training' and a reduction of recidivism. The first thing that we have to recognize is that it only works when prisoners embrace that faith, right? So, how can the state utilize those findings without pushing religion on prisoners? I'm assuming, of course, that at this point and in the past, all prisoners have had access to a bible/koran, etc. They've had a choice about whether or not to convert. What can the state do to increase the state of conversion without becoming a proselytizer for 'religion'?
Let's pose another hypothetical. Let's say that not only is a clear cut relationship between rehabilitation and religion found--but it's found to correlate best, to a large degree, with, say, Islam. What then? If pushing for prisoners to take up religion in general is o.k., what about a specific religion?
Another interesting aspect to look at is that cause and effect. If there is a reduced recidivism rate, is it because of the religion, or the people in charge who are in that religion, or is it because of how the prisoners are affected by God in general?
Speaking for myself, I can't see but that the first case is true. Religion makes some people better and more empathic and more willing to fight for others improving themselves. So, it would seem to me that it's not that we need faith based prisons but more 'faith based' (read, positive) people in prisons who can see the prisoners for something other than a criminal and help the prisoners themselves see themselves that way. This way, the state is not put in the uncomfortable position of advocating for religion or a faith, but instead just helps people to make the most use of their talents, on both ends of the rehabilitation spectrum.
Finally, this comment isn't directed to anyone in particular, but it's interesting to me to see people who otherwise would advocate for a lock'em up and throw away the key attitude all of a sudden see prisoners as human beings once they declare themselves for Jesus or a particular religion. Something is being said there, but I'm not sure what.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Really? Perhaps it's because you don't consider madrasas to be state-funded religious institutions dedicated to the "retraining" of the uneducated.
No, that clearly is not the source of my misunderstanding. I agree that Saudi Madras's are state-funded religious institutions dedicated to the "retraining" of the uneducated. I believe that reason I can't see the connection is that Lalo never explicitly explained it. With the hint you gave, I can infer the unstated connection now. The insinuation is that faith-based initiatives are equivalent to training suicide bombers. If that is, in fact, what Lalo means, I wish that s/he would simply say so. If that is the case, it might provide an interesting topic to debate. In fact, I was honestly intrigued by the subject of the thread, and disappointed that Lalo never communicated her/his thinking in a clear way. I’m still waiting...Lalo?
Posts: 57 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
While I can understand why Lalo and others may find this to be a disconcerting thing, I still don't get the corrolary beetween these prisons, which hold criminals, and terrorist training camps. Yes, I can fathom the notion that these institutions will house and give religion to people who are already convicted of criminal behavior, and that there is no indication that giving them religion will cause them to cease all bad habits, especially the criminal ones. However, doesn't it seem a bit extreme to be equating these suggested prisons to training camps for fundementalist Christians? It would have to be a pretty big conspiracy theory to come up with a feasable situation where some criminal is going to be adequately indoctrinated to begin engaging in terroristic activities against other nations or other faiths just because they had a stay at "Christian Penitentiary." In fact, it seems pretty ludicrous. Well, it would probably make a good Hollywood plot device. Other than that, though, I don't see much merit in getting so up in arms about it.
I do agree about keeping religion and government institutions separate, though. I can understand being against it under those grounds. However, this thread seems to be made under the pretense of more than a little hyperbole.
Posts: 346 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:convicts in the Inner Change program(which appears to be a different program than the TD Jakes one?)had access to a whole slew of perks that the non Inner Change inmates did not--pizza parties, music, dedicated rehab staff, affection and recognition of their worth as a human being. All these things can, and should, be available to all non-problem inmates.
Inner Change is a different program. I agree that all of those things should be available to all non-problem inmates, especially the recognition of their worth as human beings.
quote: What I take issue with is that there seems to be some profiteering from people being in prison, and this seems, to me, to be unethical and unwise.
I agree completely.
quote:What can the state do to increase the state of conversion without becoming a proselytizer for 'religion'?
This is an excellent point. If increasing the state of conversion is the point, that is obviously pushing religion. I think that this is essentially what Lalo and others who are against faith-based prisons are upset about, though I am only mind-reading here.
quote:If pushing for prisoners to take up religion in general is o.k., what about a specific religion?
An excellent question. My guess is that if we compared Christian, Islamic, and non-religious 12-step recovery programs to no education at all, the results would suggest that all of the education programs provided some success compared to no education at all. If the Islamic program were best, I'd suggest that the folks running the Christian and non-religious programs study the Islamic program to see why it works better. Pushing a particular religion seems well over the line to establishment.
quote:If there is a reduced recidivism rate, is it because of the religion, or the people in charge who are in that religion, or is it because of how the prisoners are affected by God in general?
One possibility you missed is that it is the education itself, not the religion. The programs I have looked at stress personal responsibility for past transgressions, empathy for the victim(s) of the crime, a code of conduct for living, and the surrender to a higher power. If a person learns these things, it shouldn't matter which higher power. Of course that's an opinion based on no data. I'm much more comfortable with hard numbers.
posted
Good points, and I'm not going to make an argument either for or against the effectiveness of faith based rehab. Even if it were *not* shown to be effective, I would still be for prisoners having the opportunity to practice their faith, have the opportunity to learn about other faiths, and to learn from practioners of those faiths.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I do not like the scenario of, 1)Open Prison Faith Based. 2)Show how Faith Based lowered Recitivism, especially Baptist Fundamentalism. 3)Force said religion on everyone since it is obviously best for the country.
I also don't think such a chain of events is likely.
I do worry about one other aspect of organized religion, its polarization potential, especially with new converts in evangelical religions.
scenario 1) They show Mel Gibson's "Passion of Jesus Christ" as part of thier service. This extremely conservative movie protrays Jews as the ultimate evil killers of Christ, and brings back the idea that all Jews have a blood dept that can never truly be repaid. In other words, this is the religious excuse for much of the anti-semiticism that has existed. We assume there will be other religions represented in the prisons, including Judism. We have violent people who now have a violent reason to take out there anger on the Jewish neighbors.
A car bombing in Isreal that kills a bunch of children, and the Jewish inmates will seek vengeance on the Islamic inmates.
Last week an Islamic plot was uncovered to fly a jet into Rome, attacking the Vatican itself. If successful would not the Catholic community attack the Islamic community?
Faith based blood feuds would start in such an institution, and spread into the general community when those prisoners were released.
Problem 2) Non-expected religious rites: Scenario 2) There is a growing number of Cuban/hispanic peoples in Florida, and most of them are Catholic. Catholicism, while having some Evangelical Christian strains, has an entirely different series of practices. Will you allow some prisoners to be excused for Midnite mass? Will you lump them in with the baptists?
Then there are the Wiccans and naturalists. Will you allow them to worship "skyclad" during midsummers night?
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
The article states that both confinement to the faith based prison and participation in any religious activities are completely voluntary. Since an inmate is generally sentanced to the closest prison to the area of the crime, the majority of the prisoners will be Christians. It is the most widely practiced religion in both the country and the state. I fail to see how that means the state of Florida is forcing anyone to be Christian.
The job of a prison guard is protect the inmates from each other as well as to protect society from the inmates no matter what institution they serve at. The only difference between the faith based prisoners is that they are willing to openly admit to some form of religion. This does not make them better people. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." -Romans 3:23
Becoming Christian does not make you good. Under our doctrine, it just makes you forgiven. So there's no point in pushing Christianity on an imate. It will not make them less likely to commit another crime unless they ask God to change their heart so they no longer want to.
The only point of a faith based prison is to give the inmates a chance to practice whatever religion they want free from the harassment they would receive at a mainstream prison. Since this is the entire point and the ACLU and other watchdog groups will be watching closely, it makes sense for the guards to be trained to be sensative to all inmates' needs.
So yes, the majority of inmates will be Christain. But the majority of Floridians are Christian. That doesn't mean the state has established a religion, and it doesn't mean the prison will either.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote: "We've developed a cocoon, a place where they can practice their faith and not have the severe negative pressures and interactions that naturally take place in some of our institutions," said Correction Secretary James Crosby Jr.
And, so, the admission is that prisons aren't even conducive to rehabilitation. Great. Wonder why 38% of prisoners wind back behind bars?
Here's a question that I haven't seen asked yet. What's the point of having an entirely faith based prison? If the point was to seperate out the prisoners who wanted to change from the 'bad' prisoners, then that's not an issue of faith and it's prejudicial towards the 'religious' prisoners. Just because someone declares themselves for Jesus or Allah or whoever, does that mean that their desire to change is any more sincere? That's an issue of rehabilitation. What about those prisoners who have been model prisoners but declare themselves atheists? Shouldn't they have the same chance at rehab? Why are they being left behind with the 'bad' prisoners?
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Dan_Raven said: They show Mel Gibson's "Passion of Jesus Christ" as part of thier service. This extremely conservative movie protrays Jews as the ultimate evil killers of Christ, and brings back the idea that all Jews have a blood dept that can never truly be repaid. In other words, this is the religious excuse for much of the anti-semiticism that has existed.
What is your evidence of this? Have you seen the film yet? My understanding was it showed Pilate and the Roman soldiers carrying out the crucifixion.
posted
"The article states that both confinement to the faith based prison and participation in any religious activities are completely voluntary."
Like moments of silence in school are "voluntary?" Or like the Pledge of Allegiance is voluntary? You've got a prison that's going to get substantial funding and special programs, with what amounts to a renewed focus on the welfare of inmates, and the only price to pay is to give lip service to God -- which looks good to a parole board ANYWAY? Yeah, that's not coercion at all.
"The only point of a faith based prison is to give the inmates a chance to practice whatever religion they want free from the harassment they would receive at a mainstream prison."
Oddly, this is not one of the reasons given for the creation of this prison. Neither is religious oppression listed as one of the more common inmate complaints. I strongly suspect that this prison, based on the statements of the people who've pushed to fund it, is indeed intended to promote religion among inmates, based on the assumption that religion will reduce recidivism -- and if that religion is most likely to be the most prominent religion in the land, I'm sure the funders won't be too teary-eyed.
Frankly, I don't see how anyone cannot think this is establishment.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Man, I guess I should apologize for the confusion over the title. I'm not exactly sure where it came from, but it's probably a combination of the fact that my brain likes to skip steps and think in leaps and bounds, and my mouth likes to spit out stuff to make people laugh.
Sorry if I got everyone all worked up to talk about jihads. How many posts did you guys read before you realized there was nothing to do with suicide bombers? Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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