posted
I admit, I've been ticked off by his last couple in the series. Too many plot lines out of control, and the quality of the writing was in decline.
I think he realized it too and knew he needed at least a bit of a breather. I bought the hardback Prequel at Costco recently. I held out for a while before buying it. You can call it OCD but once I start a series I *have* to finish it, because I want the end of the story.
This new book was very refreshing. No plot lines jumping horribly around, a coherent plot, and explanations for a lot of things that were only referred to in other books. I think that he has refocused, and I hope that this will improve the writing in the next couple of books. He still doesn't have great character development IMO but he does spin a decent story.
quote: You can call it OCD but once I start a series I *have* to finish it, because I want the end of the story.
I agree, I always have to finish. That's why Jordan has me so POed. I really enjoyed the first few, and then snore!!! I really just want a conclusion so I can put him behind me.
Along the same lines I won't read a series out of order. Even when people make it very clear that the sequencing is not necessary. I've come across books that I've really wanted to read but couldn't find the 1st volume so I haven't read them.
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I don't like reading a series til it's done. I hate waiting for the next book to be published. I read the first few Jordan books before I realized it open-ended and stopped reading. I figured I would just wait til the whole thing was done. I think I've been convinced, however, to not bother.
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I won't give that man any more of my money. The guy is a hack, and I refuse to make him any richer.
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I will read a series out of order. I prefer in order, but I actually started with book 6 or 7 of the Wheel of Time series because Steve had it, and I was suffering from book deprivation at the time.
beatnix19, which order to you subscribe to for The Chronicles of narnia? In the order Lewis wrote them, or the chronological order according to Narnian history?
For Jordan would you read the prequel because he wrote it now, or would you wait to the end of the series before reading it?
I kind of think he wrote the prequel because he needed a break but also because he wanted us to read it before he tells more of the later story.
posted
I bought the anniversay box set of Narnia and read it in that order, Magician's Nephew first.
I'm not opposed to reading prequels. But as to order, I'm not sure. I've never encountered a series where I haven't already read a good deal of it before coming to the prequel. I think what i like about prequels is that I get emotional envolved with the characters and once I am it's really cool to go back and see what brought them to the point of the story I'm at. Or what events took place to move the world in the direction it's in. So I'd have to say that I like a liitle bit of knowledge of the world and people before visiting their history.
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yeah Tom I agree with you, I think they should be read in the order written. Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe should ALWAYS be the first introduction to Narnia.
But I did get the paperback color illustration version, even though they were numbered wrong. Have I mentioned I have a full color poster map of Narnia done by pauline banes? unfortunately it has faded but it is still a prized possession.
posted
I had this conversation with a coworker a couple of years ago. I remember reading LW&W in school but never read the whole thing until college, which is when I bought the box set and read them through. We were always confused as to why our two sets were numbered differently. Now I know.
I would have to say that I agree with Tom though. A series should be read in the order they were written. The author wrote them that way for a purpose so we shouldn't ignore that fact.
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I have read the Narnia books 3 or 4 times in written order, and one time in chronological order. It was fun to read them "in order", but I wouldn't reccomend it for a first read.
About Jordan -- if I hadn't loved the first four books, I wouldn't be such an ardent enmeny now.
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I read the prequel in Legends. Is this prequel book pretty much just the same story expanded to fit in a novel instead of a short story?
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RJ's pretty much pissed everybody off with Crossroads of Twilight. And I include myself in that. I will say that up to Crown of Swords, I really loved the series. COS ended ok, with some resolution, or feeling that something was getting accomplished. And when you read LOC (book 6) and COS (7) together, they made a fantastic single book (which is how he wrote it.)
But already, time was telescoping. COS started off a day or two before the end of LOC, but from a different perspective. While somewhat a rehashing, what went on from that perspective was important, I admit. But the thing I really disliked was the build up of the return to Cairhien after Dumai's wells, esp from Perrin's POV (4 chapters). After his brilliance in TFOH, I really like him. But since COS, he has been nothing but whipped and whiny. Yes, I understand that every character is now sensitive to every nuance (and scent), but that part really dragged on.
Then, after that it picked up. The Mat parts were the best, of course, probably because he spends the least amount of time reading volumes in a glance, and because he constantly kept tweaking Elayne and Nynaeve's nose. So it was pretty good.
But POD (8) was so episodic. Not much happened, except a battle at the end, which you only saw in spots, felt rushed, and gave no sense of resolution. (I suppose one could argue that's what battles are like, but that wasn't the case in the previous books.)
WH (9) restored my faith and finally (finally) began to answer questions, bring a resolution to certain plots in sight (Daughter of the 9 moons, Rand and his 3 girlfriends, Slayer, etc). And the ending- wow! The cleansing of Saidin and utter rout of the forsaken. The first time male and female have worked together in 3000 years and look what they can do. (Which is another thing. What pisses me off is the way no one works together, or, for that matter, tells anyone else what they are doing. Half the plots in the book could be resolved or consolidated if they just sat down for a big "what I'm up to" conference.) Which is why the end of WH was so great. Look what can be done when people work together. And I love Cadsuane. She's the first Aes Sedai I did not want to see made datsang.
And then came COT, the ultimate setup book. If WH had not been so good, this might have been more forgivable. What was it's problem? Too much Elayne and the politics of Camelyn. I love politics (Caesar's Women was great for that reason. The intricacies of "the game" were so interesting.) And I love WOT politics, normally. But IT MOVED TOO SLOW!!! And half the book occurred during the cleansing of Saidin. Half the Book!! The only interesting parts where you felt the plot mover were about Mat and Tuon. And so while COT is a great setup for the next one (one thinks of strategy and setting up all your pieces for a multipronged attack), that's basically ALL the book was.
I'm sorry. You cannot have an entire book be setup. That's like watching a 3 hour trailer for another movie. So tantilizing about what may come, but no satisfaction or resolution now. And after 10 books, we have a right to expect some resolution.
Have I given up? Nope. The prequel was good (though I was somewhat ticked off that he was already doing prequels). It was about 2/3 new material (compared to Legends) and was very enjoyable and had a nice simple plot and resolution, while providing some essential pieces of info, or just fleshing out Moiraine, Lan, Siuan and the pre-Rand white tower. I did enjoy it.
But you know what? If writing the prequel gave him enough of a break from the mountain of plot threads he is juggling, and a new perspective on where he is going, then it was worth it. He has said it would not affect the rate the major books are coming out (every two years for the major). I think he is hoping for a book a year (one year a major, one year a prequel. Maybe he has returned with fresh eyes. He's been working on the new one for a year or so and still insists that he'll be done in 2 more. Maybe all his setup in COT paid off in allowing him to do some major consolidation. He's already indicated that the next book will finally deal with Mat and A/Eelfin (and presumably Moiraine's rescue. Mat, Thom and the match-making Aludra are all together with fire, iron, and music.)
I hope so. I have to finish. My OCD won't let me do otherwise.
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Hey IanO, clearly you've been around far longer than me but nice to meet you!
you said how I've been feeling far better than I could. I will now wait for the next book, and then go back and read nine for the bits I missed before. Maybe it will be more interesting once you have the full story.
Tolkein was actually like that for me. I didn't enjoy it until my second time through.
posted
There's a good interview with Robert Jordan here. He explains why he's writing prequels before he's done with the series, among other things. He says he should be able to wrap up the series in two more books.
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posted
I have not picked up the book edition of Winter's Heart. Has anyone read both that and Legends? Is it worth it? COT- I was determined to finish, because I have gotten this far. I spent the whole book wondering when something would happen, and nothing ever did.
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define dink? Sounds a little full of himself, but a lot of authors do. There is a certain amount of intrinsic arrogance that you have to have in order to think that you write well enough that people will want to buy what you write.
posted
Yeah, I mean like a jerk who is full of himself. I just get a vibe from him that I don't like at all.
That stuff about Asmodean especially, and how he doesn't have to give any more clues because one fan somewhere guessed right about it.
I think I will sell my WOT books on ebay. Maybe recover some of my losses on them. I'll give a discount if anyone at hatrack wants them .
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posted
"I am HORRIFIED by the recent tendency to sort the Narnia books in "chronological" rather than written order."
Same here.
As for Robert Jordan, I loved the first three, no four, books. Then they seemed to take about fifteen pages for one action, and I swear, women were getting spanked every other page. (exaggeration, but it was enough to bother me) What is up with that??
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Yes, Elizabeth! And the obsession with the hemlines going up and the necklines going down, the "oh he's so much better with the ladies" thoughts of each of the guys, and ... it just started to read (to me) like a player piano gone off on autopilot, and so I stopped reading.
Glad, though, for those the series gives pleasure. Plenty of books to go around. Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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I'm so glad I never started on WoT series - I too am unable to stop once started. Haven't really enjoyed his stuff in Legends either so don't have the desire too.
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quote:Wait a second-- are you saying Jordan wrote a Prequel before finishing the series?
HACK.
I'll say it again:
HACK.
One more time:
HACK.
Then, um, OSC is a hack. Because this prequel is actually more or less his Legends novella, and OSC has written a couple of those too, thought the Alvin Maker series is not done. And he wrote a short story for Far Horizons despite the fact that the Ender series is not done.
(Speaking of hacks, Goodkind has also published his Legends novella in book form.)
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
RJ does seem somewhat pompous. I guess it comes from the "apparant" success of creating a world rich and varied that often gets compared to the master, Tolkein (whether you agree with that or not.)
Personally, I do think his world is rich and varied and that he is trying to give a realistic depiction of this world. The downside is that, for example, it precludes whole nations, and more importantly, people already of some influence in those nations, from simply falling in line with people like Elayne or even Rand. Which, in turn, gives rise to the endless political machinations. I am reminded of a scene in Foward the Foundation, by Asimov, where Hari (I think) explains that when you try to model something (like a world or society), the more accurate such a model becomes, the more it approaches the actual size and complexity of the thing it is modeling. So an accurate model of a world would need to approach the complexity of such a world, which includes its numerous, often counterworking citizens. Thus, the hundreds of characters in the series who have to be taken into account because they continue to act with their own objectives in mind, even when off screen. It's a balance that is not easy to maintain: world realism vs the story's digestibility (and RJ's own maintainability of those threads). And unless he starts consolidating (which I think he will), it will only get worse.
The Asmodean thing really bugged me. 1 person out of how many figures it out? He doesn't say which, nor does he give any indication what clues led to that event. The fact is, the clues he has left behind lead to too many interpretations, which means they WERE NOT sufficient, despite his claims and what amounts to a 'random' guess of one possibility among many by one fan among thousands. Does that mean he'll never answer or simply will not put in any more clues and will just tell us? I can understand the latter, but the former is just churlish. I personally do believe it was Slayer and the reasoning *seems* sound, but I also know that you can't count on anything with RJ until he spells it out. Taimandred anyone? Until his explicit admission at a signing, I still believed Demandred was Taim, despite what happened in WH. There was some interpretions of those events that allowed for it. But he has hammered this again and again: what you think you know isn't always true. So how can we just assume who killed Asmodean without something more definitive? Why play the games with us?
I hope he received a rebuke from his publishers after COT. Amazon.com (and other book review sites, as well as WOT fandom sites) have universally lambasted COT. There are, IIRC, 2500 reviews of COT at Amazon. And it's average review is 1.5 stars, with many people saying that the review software wouldn't allow a 0 star rating. Too many people have given up on the series because this book was the last straw and, as important as it was as a setup for the next, it DID NOT go anywhere! Even at the RJ newsgroup, where people used to defend RJ and get into all the minutia, there is huge discontent. I wonder what the publishing figures for New Spring were? I wonder if there was a noticable drop? I hope so. Maybe he'll get back on the ball and honor and complete the contract he made with us so long ago (October of 93, for me.)
posted
"Thus, the hundreds of characters in the series who have to be taken into account because they continue to act with their own objectives in mind, even when off screen."
It's odd how George Martin, through the simple expedient of being able to write, is able to pull this off with much less difficulty. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I wont deny Martin's skill at this. Obviously he is keeping himself under tighter control than RJ. It's not an easy thing to do.
And it doesn't help that RJ's married to his TOR editor, who knows exactly where things are going, has a vested personal interest in RJ, and so might be more willing to forgive his "diarhea of the mouth", to borrow a term that people have applied to King, when it comes to dresses, hemlines, arms crossing beneath breasts, baths, the strange light of Telaranrhiod, and all the other single sentence descriptions that keep getting repeated and seem like just a little thing but can really add up.
Though you have to admit that the Joust chapter in GRRM's first book contained way too many names and peope to keep track of too, no?
posted
No way Lan. All those characters worth remembering play a part further on and its easy to go back and see that yes they were in the tourney. I'd say the average reader just forgets they were there, and just figures it out on the rereader, like I did with Anguay the Archer.
Martin is a God compared to Jordan.
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posted
Not arguing that, Ghost. GRRM is great and obviously has not allowed his plot threads to spin out of control, as RJ has. Does that mean I like RJ less? No. I like both, recognizing the strengths and weaknesses of both.
The WOT story is a great one. It has captured my interest for 11 years, has provided more than enough satisfaction to mitigate the weaknesses, and I will stick with it to the end. Yeah, I was disappointed in POD and majorly with COT. But the others I loved and have read repeatedly, each time finding more and more interesting things (oftentimes, the various subplots and myriad characters that were so confusing at first. Those subplots have made teh rereadings much more enjoyable and allowed me to foresee alot of what was going to happen.) 8 out of 10 (at roughly 1 book every 2 years) is not bad. I am ready for it to be done, though. And I admit that he has reached his limit as far as subplots. He needs to consolidate. He's not as good and tight a writer as GRRM. I don't necessarily have to hate RJ when I compare him to GRRM.
posted
One of the kids in my class came in with a hardcover version of one of the later novels(sorry, forget which) I told her I had the others at home, and she should read them in order. I do not have the first one, which was loaned out and lost. So, the school librarian got it for her from the local library, and I dug out the rest of the series.
Today, I offered the series to the school librarian. She was excited to have them.
The whole ride home, I was kicking myself soundly, and I think I might have to take back my offer. I have a huge classroom library now, and I should put them in there.
Why did I share this rather boring story? Because it made me realize how attached I am to this series, though I am disillusioned with all the spanking and minutiae about minutiae.
[ March 16, 2004, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
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posted
How old are the kids in your classes? I mean it never gets too explicit about sex like a trashy romance novel but there is a lot of innuendo that could make some parents upset.
posted
I think the second book is my favorite... and the whole seriers was good for me up till the 5th book... Then he started taking whole chapters for people to get out of bed! And how many sweating, heaving boosoms can we take??
I like all the characters. Mat is tons of fun. And I also like how R. Jordan incorporates ALOT of elements from the DUNE series.
Anyway... I'm like BannaOJ... I NEED to finish a series. I just pray that Robert J. get's to the end! I want to see the Last Battle between the Aes Sadai and Morgoth! Erm... I mean the Dark One. Shiatan...
*air quivers with evil* Oops.. shouldn't have said that...
Long live the White Tree!
[ March 16, 2004, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
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posted
Actually, I'd say every character has gone from at least approaching likeability to complete, utter nitwit. They're all stubborn, selfish, clueless idiots. I can't even try and remember characters by their characteristics because they're all the same.
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posted
I thought that had to do with the fact that evil is attacking all of their characters simultaneously. Jordan isn't a good character writer, but like I said he's spun a decent story.
He went to a military college. He's writing it like a military historian with way too much minutae. I really didn't expect the guy to be normal when you see the picture of himself he chooses to put on the book flap.
The kids I teach are middle school age. The story doesn't get too heavy until about the fourth book, as I recall. The thing is, they read history, and watch the news. Their parents would be astonished and proud if they read a book of such length. These are at-risk kids. If a parent ever had a problem with it, I would monitor a child's reading list, out of respect for the parent. Just as I would not feed a child sugary treats at my house if he was not allowed them. Basically, I guess I have a wishy-washy approach to censorship. My gut feeling is to let kids read anything they will read, including a computer manual or the comics.
The kids come to us thinking they are stupid and useless. Sometimes, fifth graders speak of quitting school. My first job is really as curriculum therapist. I am not great with the counseling kind of words, in fact I can get quite tongue-tied. But I can teach them in ways they can understand. They are all the kids that no one knows what to do with. They test out of special ed, but are clearly learning disabled. They are emotionally fragile, angry, beaten down, or a bully. They are intelligent, thoughtful, resourceful, and so at ease in our classroom, once they start to feel comfortable.
If they read Robert Jordan's series, I am very sure their parents would be quite pleased. (I also know the parents very well)
Liz(sorry to go on so)
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I just come from the over-protected side, like Jenny Gardner's folk. My mother didn't approve of the dentist showing ET because one kid calls the other "penis breath". There is still a note at that dentist on the our file folders saying "don't show ET" after Mom got so upset she wrote a letter to them.
posted
Banna, I respect that, and I know what hard choices people make when they send their children off to school. That is why it is really important to be a teacher who can listen, and a parent who will talk, and vice versa. So much is assumed by both sides! But seeing my pile of books on my desk was a strange, powerful moment, one of those grail music in the background moments. There were six pieces of my heart and mind. Lots and lots of pages. I wanted to see who was reading the books. I wanted to push them on the good readers.
"Memory, Sorrow and Thorn" is circulating, too. One student, who read the Lord of the Rings backwards, has agreed to start with Book 4 so another student can start with Book One. Ha ha. If they did that with the Jordan series, they would never get to the middle books until high school!
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quote: I can't even try and remember characters by their characteristics because they're all the same.
That's not true! There was that beautiful, large-breasted blonde, then there was the attractive brunette with lots of cleavage, then there was the well-endowed short one, and....
quote: He says he should be able to wrap up the series in two more books.
Yeah. He said 4 more books when he was at book 4. I personally believe that he will keep writing new books until he dies. At that point, his estate will write one more book based on his notes. Wake me up then and I'll read that one.
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