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"Perfect teeth. Nice smell. A class act, all the way." – Homer Simpson describing The Lord in his dream.
What is the limit to discussing God, when you feel disrespected or offended? Is any discussion on a medium like Television too much, or can you handle anything including ridicule without much effect?
I, for one, am trying hard not to be offended by anything. Not to say that I’ll just watch anything because I’m not offended, but I may turn off the TV or change the channel because I think something is inappropriate and not be offended by it. When it comes to discussion of God I try to keep that up. So for me the question is more, when do I change the channel? Certainly any respectful discussion of God (either for or against) is fine with me, and I don’t even really mind a bit of joking. I think it’s really too much for me when one person is completely intolerant of another’s views. For instance, and atheist expounding on the complete ridiculousness of belief, accusing various Churches of committing all sorts of crimes and what not, or just generally mocking God. The other side is no good either, people of faith basically condemning themselves those who do not believe. When one side refuses to acknowledge that the other side posses any intelligence whatsoever, I change the channel.
The only other thing that really gets to me is people trying to score point using God. Once again, both sides. For instance, I was watching an Ellen DeGenerous (that’s not how it’s spelled is it?) stand-up a whole bunch of months ago, and she just started going on about a –black-female-God. I put the hyphens in not to emphasize but because after each of these “revelations” the audience clapped for about 30 seconds. She was scoring points by creating a PC God and it really ticked me off. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a black, female Lord (that’s not what I believe, but I don’t have a problem with someone else believing that) but when you score points on faith you lose respect for it.
posted
I pretty much don't have a problem with anyone describing their conception of who/what God is or isn't. After all, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and who am I to say that I'm right and they are wrong. I haven't seen God, so I certainly don't know for sure what the deity looks like or sounds like.
What I do have a problem with is people who describe their conception of God and then proclaim that anyone who doesn't agree with them is wrong, evil, and shouldn't be allowed to express their own belief because it might "lead someone astray". As if the speaker has some special right to impose his or her idea of who or what God is on everyone else. I honestly don't believe that God has any problem at all with people picturing him or her in different ways. This goes for people who don't believe in any sort of God going around calling people stupid who do have a belief in some sort of deity. Each person gets their say, but they don't get to say that anyone else's concept is unacceptable.
Now, I may be getting ready to contradict what I just said in the previous paragraph. I don't think so, but some people might. Oh, well. I'm going to say it anyway.
The things that most offend me are the t-shirts I see around with things like "Lord's Gym - His Pain, Your Gain". I find these to be just so disrespectful and trivializing of a belief that I think should be treated with care and respect. These kinds of shirts, I think, have the effect of putting the atonement on the same level of, say, your favorite football team. Just drives me up a wall. I would think that someone who believes that Jesus is their messiah and savior would be a little bit more respectful than that. Of course, because I believe that everyone is entitled to their say I wouldn't dream of trying to prevent anyone from expressing themselves that way if that is what they feel they must do.
Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Luckily there's no need to have to defend God against His many detractors, or worse, His supporters. It's nice to know that I don't have any responsibility to do that, because basically anything I could say would be superfluous. He's way above all that.
I don't think I mind anything being said about God that people are sincerely feeling. Like if someone told me they were angry at God and if they met God they would stab Him through the heart. But I do feel icky or something, sort of embarrased for the person, if, like you say, someone tries to score points off of God, or uses God to make some point about religious people or something.
Some people honestly believe they think nothing is sacred, though they DO think some things are sacred, always, it's just a matter of discovering what. But sometimes people will claim they think nothing is sacred and I feel that is very sad. Because of that, they don't get to experience the sacred. Never. At all. That is extremely sad.
So when people trample on things I feel are sacred, I try to remember that and feel sorry for them instead of annoyed but I don't always succeed in that. Sorry, this is rambling and incoherent. I guess I don't really know what I am saying. <laughs>
Posts: 5509 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I actually had an institute teacher once quote Carl Sagan (which I highly enjoyed), saying that people like to put God in a little box that they can understand. And I see this all around.
I am offended at times when people assume certain things about me when they know I'm religious. They assume I'm purposely ignorant or biased or self-righteous. But I am trying not to be offended, just to be true to myself and what I believe. And I think I'll probably make more of an impact by consistently living what I believe than by arguing the point.
And I'm also trying not to narrow my view of what God is and what He is capable of. I'm trying not to put Him in a little box.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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While somewhat on the same topic, I have to say that spending time on Hatrack and having Mormon friends have made me a LOT more sensitive to "Mormon Bashing Humor".
Lets put it this way - I was watching Gilmore Girls the other night (wonderfully written show), and a character was talking about how he moved to Utah. "I heard there are many opportunities for industious Mormons there," he said. "Oh," said Lorelai Gilmore. "I didn't know you were Mormon!" "I wasn't. So I converted. It took weeks for the paperwork to go through," he said.
Which alone would have been fine in its own right. It's pretty harmless, and would've stayed harmless if it had stayed there - but the character went on in a meant-to-be humerous manner to discuss why being a Mormon just didn't work out for him. And in the list, he mentioned something that literally made me gasp, and put my hand over my mouth, not believing that they said it.
For an idea of what they mentioned, see the Angels in America thread from a few months ago.
Due to the context and nature of which the glib was made in the GG episode, I found it was completely unwarranted. Now true, I don't think the writer knew how potentially offensive they were being, but that doesn't excuse them in my opinion.
:sighs: I get offended at Mormon jokes and I'm not even a Mormon. See what you've done to me, Hatrack?
And while this may seem to be contradictory to my posts in that previously mentioned thread, I think the context of this show, and the context of it in Angels in America are COMPLETELY different.
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And back on topic, when I hear comedians use God-bashing as a way to score points, I do get angry. David Cross' latest CD - although I do find the man very funny in many cases - just made me boil with anger at a few rants and raves he and his audience seemed to find hilarious.
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I read page one, and it has you mostly posting questions, eslaine. I suppose I need to read the other umpteen pages to find your answers? I was feeling weary of religion threads at the time that one was current, I think, though clearly I ought to have read it. I will bump it so it will start going again, then maybe I can catch up. Posts: 5509 | Registered: May 1999
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Most of those posts were in one afternoon as I remember. I'll have to check out the times next time I go through it. Posts: 2506 | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:As we have seen in recent physical theories, our ideas keep getting revised (no time!). I think our ideas of theology must do so also.
I should hate to think that, just because I am a secular humanist, I should exclude all other thought on the subject of cosmology. I like to stretch that mental framework, test it, see if it will break.
I also should hope that more of the theological giants of this forum would post their remarks as well.
But please: None of this is an attack on any paradigm. It is an abstract discussion.
Thanks all again.
I'd say that pretty much answers Hobbes' original question.
Posts: 2506 | Registered: Jul 2003
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I generally don't like discussing God, or beliefs. My personal understanding of it is that people don't use beliefs so much as a source of support and faith as they do for badges of their own personality. This occurs a lot more at college than in real life (I don't labor under the fantasy that college is real life at all), I'm sure, but I still find it pretty annoying. When people ask "What do you believe?" they really mean "Who are you? Or, who do you think you are?"
I guess I have faith that the world has order, which I think it does, and that order does not come from nothing.
Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Well, here's my view on this whole "god" thing. As a firm agnostic, I can tolerate religious folks attempts to convert me (I won't be converted because the whole faith thing goes against my very nature, as much as the non-existence of proof for a god doesn't make a valid argument against the existence of a god, in my mind), because that is what they feel they need to do. I won't however be subjected to someone telling me I'm evil and will go to hell, merely because I don't believe in a god. I feel that a person's behavior is a better gauge for their worth as a person than what they claim to believe. And if there is a god, I think he/she/it would feel the same, so don't attack me in the name of God. I know lots of religious people who behave in a less, er, I'll use the word righteous, manner than many non-religious, and I will not tolerate the former condemning the latter.
I'll also turn off any religious programming and walk away from anyone on the street preaching at me from the bible, because they are almost always condemning somebody, from what I've heard, and they really have no right to. One other thing is people who (in the same vein), claim to speak for God. There is a billboard on my stretch of interstate that reads "Stop Destroying My Mountains. -God". It gets me all het up every time I see it. (For anyone who doesn't know, I live in West Virginia, and mountaintop removal mining is a big controversial issue here.)
Posts: 609 | Registered: Apr 2003
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When I was in the car, flipping through the address book in the cell phone and trying to give someone a number while trying to play in traffic, and you were busy gripping the door and the seat I coulnd't help but think of a line from Fear and Loathing.
"You better take care of me Lord, if you don't you're gonna have me on your hands."
Would that have been acceptable humor? Did I manage to cross the line anywhere on that drive?
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posted
I think discussion of religion is a good thing -- if you can't debate what you believe, then you don't really believe it very deeply -- and by the same token, hearing others' ideas and beliefs broaden perspective on the world as a whole.
I'm usually not offended by what others say about their religion/or lack thereof. I maybe sometimes feel slightly offended if they start making fun of the belief of God or of what others believe, or if they are arguing sheerly for the sake of just argument -- not in attempt to learn more or be open-minded.
But not nearly as offended as I am at other things -- such as the Simpson's tv show.
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Whan God comes up, I usually let him get a quick breath before I plunge his head back under the water.
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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I don't like the poster "He never said it would be easy... He only said it would be worth it." I mean, I know people who like to write their personal friends letters in His name, which I find mildly weird, but making up scripture and selling it seems dicey to me. I am LDS and I think the people who made that poster are LDS. I guess it's just two sides of the "open canon" coin.
The Billboards go in the mildly weird category because I assume they are paying to put them up rather than making money from them. But they are mildly weird and exhibitionistic.
Is that quote from the Simpson's where Homer starts his own religion? I used to think that one was funny. I kind of assumed Homer could be imagining the whole thing. I don't know what I would think now because my kids are the wrong age to watch it. I'm just too lazy to explain that many jokes to them.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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New information: My husband calls and asks if I can tape "Joan of Arcadia" because some clients recommended it to him. I complained that it looked a little sacreligious (sp?) based on an episode I saw where her "mission" for the week was to get her driver's license. I don't know that it's worse than "Touched by an Angel". Since I only saw that twice.
I don't know how the whole deal started with her, but apparently random adults will suddenly be talking to her as if they were God. (Frumpy neighbor lady, Candy Machine Service Man, Balding commuter on bus) But not Bible-quoting God. More like omniscient but caring God. Two things were said that bothered me.
The first is when she was given her mission for the week, "Hold a Garage Sale" and she balks, the mouthpiece person says something about how everything she has been asked to do has been for her own good. Maybe, but I think even St. Peter and St. Paul endured a few things whose beneficialness was not apparent within a week's time. paraphrase of C.S. Lewis
The other thing was in the last communique, the messenger calls an act "evil" and says "I don't throw that word around lightly". (the act was a man who invaded a woman's dorm room and raped her). While this definitely falls in the evil category for me, I don't understand why the conception of God in this series feels a label of evil should be applied sparingly. Anyway, I am probably going to start a different thread on evil vs. crazy. Or maybe dredge up an old one. (meh, never mind)
posted
I feel the same as a lot of people. I don't mind talking about God, as long as it's openminded, and no one's being trashed. The board has made me really sensitive to Mormons, though, and I've been clashing with one of the pastors at my church, who is sort of stuck on Mormonism at the moment because the contracters building his house are Mormon. I finally figured out why we weren't communicating at all when talking about it- I learned about Mormonism on hatrack, from Mormons, simply because I wanted to learn and it interests me. He learned about Mormonism from protestants, and with the sole goal of finding flaws in Mormonism that he could use to convert Mormons.
I don't really understand how learning about different religons is so hard for so many people. Even "openminded" people tend to try to "learn" about Christianity from me by picking at all of the perceived flaws and forcing me to defend them, rather than just allowing me to tell them about what I believe. That's when talking about God stops being worth it to me, when it becomes clear that the person who wants to "learn" about my beliefs really wants to show me what an idiot I am for believing them.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Pooka, did you see the entire episode where her 'mission' was to get her Driver's licence? The reason wasn't so that she would get the licence. It's so circumstances lined up so that she'd be in a position to find her carjacked and wounded father on the side of the road. It she had resisted doing the thing she didn't feel ready to do and that seemed inconsequential - even though she was being told to do so by someone she knows from personal experience hasn't led her astray yet - her father very well could have died.
quote:the mouthpiece person says something about how everything she has been asked to do has been for her own good. Maybe, but I think even St. Peter and St. Paul endured a few things whose beneficialness was not apparent within a week's time.
Realize this is a Television show that needs to have a resolution at the end of each hour, Pook. Also, if you watch the show as a season, things that happen in a single episode (based on things Joan has done by God's command) DO have later repurcussions that effect everyone. One particular command that was VERY hard for Joan to do had a major repurcussion that had a NEGATIVE impact on Joan for several episodes, before the true positive aspects of it began to be shown.
As for the second thing that bothered you - 'evil' IS a word that people throw around lightly. "He made me eat that chocolate. He's pure evil.", or "That teacher failed you? How evil of him!"
And the premise of the show isn't 'people showing and speak as if they are God' - in the show, it IS God appearing in different forms (which I know clashes with the LDS doctrine of 'God has a single particular body of Flesh and Bone', but I don't think you view that as a major issue with the show, now do you?). And yes, it IS the God of the Bible (sometimes humerous references are made to previous commandments he made - I'm sure you can think of what He referenced when he told Joan in an episode to Build a Boat).
And even in the pilot episode, it was never explained WHY Joan of all people was chosen. But why, according to those who believe in the Bible, or prophets in general, are ANY chosen by God? Because by working through even the most unlikely of people (a stuttering slave-born shepherd?)faith is what allows things to happen.
And I'm not meaning to hijack, but since it was brought up, I'd like to repost a review I wrote of this show at the midseason point over at PWEB which, I think, may also apply to the topics and thoughts at hand:
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Joan of Arcadia is, hands down, the best new show this season. It's the only one I found worth watching. (Although I will admit - I have never seen an episode of Cold Case, and my mother ADORES this show - the crime-of-the-week genre just doesnt interest me that much).
Joan does what all the best shows allow to happen to their characters, that most mediocre and especially poor shows do not -- they let them grow and change. Every single episode contains something that will effect the events of those that come after. The season is one continuous story - BUT each episode is also perfectly stand-alone, perfect to allow new viewers to become initiated.
This show deals with themes and elements that matter - and structured in a way that every single scene in the episode helps to reinforce that episode's MAJOR THEME. A seeming throw-away scene or line early in the episode will come back with deeper and expanded meaning. Everything in the end comes clear.
This is also a show where people's lives are in danger, and you, as the viewer - are actually worried about the outcome. Main characters are put in threatening situations, and it doesn't seem like 'Plot Device Of The Week' - it's absolutely and perfectly logical. And the reactions of the other characters to this situation seem perfectly real. There is not a single stereotype in the show. Yes, there are some characters who come very close to that label, but then they differ in a way that makes them seem real in a way characters that asctually do fall into the stereotype you THOUGHT these characters were in aren't.
Yes, it's a show where God is a major force.
But it's not a religious show by any means. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - this is NOT Touched By An Angel. It is, however, a show about faith. Not necessarily Faith In God, but faith in other people. Faith that you can make a difference. Faith that that jerk in school isn't as bad as everyone makes him out to be. Faith that, even though you're going through a rough time, or even a disaster - that things are working for the better.
Faith that things will be okay in the end.
But it's not a passive Faith - it's a faith that needs to be acted upon. A faith where just just understanding that that kid who sits next to you in class is suffering deep emotional problems isn't enough.
A faith where doing something which seems hard or impossible, and will bring down temporary hardships on you will really be worth it in the long run.
Maybe this comes accross as sappy to people. But I think those people are exactly who need to see this show.
For people who already understand this concept - well, maybe you need this show to give you a nudge to put it into practice.
quote:Taalcon wrote: Lets put it this way - I was watching Gilmore Girls the other night (wonderfully written show), and a character was talking about how he moved to Utah.
I totally saw the same show and agree that it was unwarranted. I normally watch the show for the fast paced dialogue and quick wit, but this bit struck me as a cheap shot. The guy from The Kids in the Hall show was saying the dialogue, too, and I like those guys ("I'm crushing your head!"). Mormons take way more heat than they deserve.
quote:Hobbes wrote: She was scoring points by creating a PC God and it really ticked me off.
Some things. First, it's standup. You probably already know that race, religion, politics and sex are all fodder for the standup comedian. Expecting that, you still got angry. Second, it was a lesbian doing stand up. Of course she's going to have material about God when so many religious people are telling her that her lifestyle is wrong because God says so. I kind of wonder why you were watching her standup when probability would indicate that she's going to say something that's offensive to you as a Mormon.
Third point is a bit different. I don't think "black-female" God is so much PC as it is pointing out that the image of God that many people have has been created in a European-dominated, patriarchal society. I think it questions where our ideas originate, as well as questioning the Bible (again, Ellen probably wants to encourage that since people use the Bible to criticize her sexuality - her audience isn't exactly fundamentalist Christian either so they clap for 30 seconds).
Another example about the PC thing. I was sitting in an English class and someone talks about this Baskin Robbins billboard that has an Asian kid, a black kid, and a white kid all eating different flavor ice cream cones. And the person was complaining about how PC it was. I saw it as BR pointing out that people come in different flavors too and that they have ice cream as individual as you are.
I think bringing God up is about tolerance vs. religion. I generally don't bring God up around religious people because I will probably offend them with my views. I'm pretty tolerant, and when someone invites me to go see their services I usually go because it's interesting to see their religion's different qualities and styles that are displayed. To me, religion has a strong aspect of judgement in it. Are you good or evil? A believer or non-believer? You can only get into heaven through our religion. We're right, and everyone else is wrong. There are religious people who are tolerant, but they seem to be few and far between so I play it safe and don't talk about God.
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posted
I have to admit that I enjoy talking about God, even at the same time it makes me nervous. Time was, I got a kick out of arguing about religion (and philosophy, and politics). To some extent, I still do, but I've learned both my tendency to offend people and my difficulty with remembering the whole argument I meant to use.
Of course, I grew up hearing that debates were a useful means of convincing people (they were, once upon a time, under certain circumstances) and that if you really believed something you wouldn't back down.
Posts: 1041 | Registered: Feb 2002
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I enjoy talking about God, but only with people who have already formed well-thought-out opinions. Otherwise, I feel like I'm trying to force my opinions on someone else, when really I just want to see if anyone else thinks I'm onto something (as opposed to "on" something).
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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JNSB, I was actually not Mormon when I was watching this. I like Ellen, and none of her lesbian jokes tick me off, in fact, she hardly made any lesbian jokes really. What was ticking me off was she was just spitting out PC phrases for applause, and she was doing it about something that was very sacred and very important to a lot of people.
posted
I wouldn't really take exception to the different appearances of God. While He does have one body by our doctrine, all of his followers can receive His countenance. I was assuming that it was something more like that. What I do have a problem with is that she shouldn't be sassing off to Him. And I know the mission led to more important stuff. But it's still kind of a lucky-chance thing in my view. I don't know if Hubby will keep wanting to watch it. But I don't think it's a good show for my little kids. Watching the show will mean I let computer games babysit them. Which I'm told is a no no.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
The God Question has Christians at a disadvantage, because, to atheists and agnostics, it's often seen as an obsessive hobby, and one not mentioned in tasteful company; for Christians (the good ones, anyway), they're worried about everybody getting to live on after death.
It seems like Christians that really believe the Gospel are neccessarily going to irk a lot of atheists, simply by believing in God. Irk and amuse. To nonbelievers we Christians can look pretty silly.
But the people who really get annoyed by practicing Christians are the people who, despite themselves, believe in God but are really mad at Him.
Don't forget that atheists don't have to deal with that commandment to love everyone, even those who flame you online.
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I'm pretty open to almost any discussions of God. And I can usually deal with humorous shots at most religions, so long as it's clearly humorous, as most of the jokes come from an "outsiders" point of view so it makes sense to the general public. What I dislike is when somebody that is knowingly an ex-Mormon (just since that seems to be the most discussed religion in this thread; this really goes for all religions) pokes fun at some of the Mormon beliefs. You know, with jokes like "I used to be a mormon..." blah, blah, blah.
Another thing that annoys me is when people thank God when they win a game or get an award. It's not that I doubt their conviction that God had a hand in it; it's that I don't doubt any of the other competitor's either. And I'm not one of those people that think the quality of your life is judged by the quantity of your faith. Of course, I'm not saying that faith in God won't give your life a purpose - just that it won't improve your chances of achieving your goals.
Billboards, bumper stickers, t-shirts, and are just some of those things that make me roll my eyes and ignore. I do think it's pretty pathetic to bring God down to that level, but not big enough a deal to make an issue out of.
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quote: But I don't think it's a good show for my little kids. Watching the show will mean I let computer games babysit them. Which I'm told is a no no.
I have no clue what you mean by this.
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quote:What I do have a problem with is that she shouldn't be sassing off to Him.
Why? I have to honestly say that I don't understand the attitude that God is going to start throwing bolts of lightning or something just because someone is upset and talks back to God. Didn't Sarah basically laugh in God's face when he told her she was going to have a baby, finally, at the age of ninety-something? Didn't Moses pretty much just up and tell God He'd gotten the wrong person to be the spokesman and leader for the Hebrews, and actually recommend someone he thought might be a better person for the job? It seems like sassing back to God is quite a long-standing tradition.
I truly believe that God has no problem with honest differences of opinion, and I think that the idea humans must always, only, and constantly praise God all the time is a projection of a very human attribute - the wish and need for praise and affirmation - onto God, who we humans seem to constantly be trying to put in a box by always insisting that God "must" do this, or "would never" do that. We just don't know, really, when it comes down to it, what God would or wouldn't, can or cannot, do. There may be hints in scripture and tradition, but that's all they are. Hints. Not the full story at all.
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quote:Hobbes wrote: JNSB, I was actually not Mormon when I was watching this. I like Ellen, and none of her lesbian jokes tick me off, in fact, she hardly made any lesbian jokes really. What was ticking me off was she was just spitting out PC phrases for applause, and she was doing it about something that was very sacred and very important to a lot of people.
Ah, somehow I missed that you weren't brought up in the LDS Church. I'm sure you must have written something on your conversion on this board. Would you link to it here or email the link to me (in case you don't want to derail the thread)? I think that would be a pretty interesting story.
As for the PC phrases, like I said before, I don't think they were PC (see reasons in previous post). I think many religious people attacked something sacred to Ellen (her sexual identity) and she was using her forum to defend herself in a humorous way by questioning the common image of God. The movie Dogma did this, too. I don't think anyone would accuse Kevin Smith of being politically correct.
Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sep 2003
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I think the problem I would have had with the routine (I've never seen this woman, so this is just guessing from what's been sad here) is that she's basically just making up God. I don't think you can make up God, and I think to do so is a direct insult to every religous person, no matter their religion.
The same thing bothers me when people say things like, "I could never believe in a god who does..." The implication being that belief is a matter of figuring out a god you'd like to believe in, and then believing in that god. I can accept different people believing different things about God. But when they start randomly making him up and taking the attitude of "this is the god I'd like to believe in today." I get a little annoyed. I'm a conservative Christian, and while I try to get as close to God as I can in my understanding of Him, it's not even possible for one teenage girl who can't even understand herself to fully comprehend the Maker of the Universe. The idea's ridiculous! I think we have to try as hard as we can to understand Him, but realize that He might not be exactly as we would like Him to be. Personally, I would be really scared if God felt exactly the same way as I do about everything; I'm not capable of running my own life, much less the rest of the world.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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Makes me anticipate the day when He will come back down.
quote: . . . I have to honestly say that I don't understand the attitude that God is going to start throwing bolts of lightning or something just because someone is upset and talks back to God. Didn't Sarah basically laugh in God's face when he told her she was going to have a baby, finally, at the age of ninety-something? Didn't Moses pretty much just up and tell God He'd gotten the wrong person to be the spokesman and leader for the Hebrews, and actually recommend someone he thought might be a better person for the job? It seems like sassing back to God is quite a long-standing tradition.
This is true, but look what happened to them. Once they saw that God meant what He said, they wised up and never sassed Him again; at least not without serious repercussions. Moses, for instance, was never allowed to enter the Promised Land after abusing God's power he was given.
quote:The same thing bothers me when people say things like, "I could never believe in a god who does..." The implication being that belief is a matter of figuring out a god you'd like to believe in, and then believing in that god. I can accept different people believing different things about God. But when they start randomly making him up and taking the attitude of "this is the god I'd like to believe in today."
Almost always the only people who say this are those who don't believe in God and think Religion is made up anyway.
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Ocassional -- I have seen several religious people on hatrack use the "I could never believe in a god who" line. Also, I think it is in fact inherent in (most) religions. Most (all?) subsets of Christianity, at least, have some very specific ideas as to what God is like, and several of them are different. This is a way of discriminating amongst them. Presumably you yourself have done so. I know in your faith you believe you were divinely inspired as to which faith to choose, but even then a choice remains, else you would not need a certain degree of hell, eh? (and for religions without that distinction, else there wouldn't really be free will, eh?)
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"The same thing bothers me when people say things like, 'I could never believe in a god who does...'"
I'll be honest. While I could possibly BELIEVE in a God who did certain things I find odious, provided He or She demonstrated His or Her existence in some way, I would actively oppose such a God. The destruction of all life on the planet, with the exception of one boat full of people, is one such act.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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So you are sufficiently confident that you know the difference between right and wrong better than an omniscient being?
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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I have no other frame of reference when it comes to my sense of right and wrong than my own personal frame of reference.
If a being claiming to be omniscient persists in doing something I believe to be evil, I would expect it -- since it is, after all, omniscient -- to find a way to explain its actions to me in a way I could at the very least understand, if not sympathize with, if it expected my compliance. If it failed to take this step, I see no reason why I should believe it to be omniscient -- or benevolent, for that matter.
I am, quite frankly, aghast that anyone here would pretend that they would behave differently. If a being claiming to be God and clearly possessed of some special knowledge descended from the sky and started eating our babies because it insisted it was for our own good -- or, say, sent a giant flood to wipe out all but the Clinton family -- I would expect all of us to resist to the best of our limited ability.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:This is true, but look what happened to them. Once they saw that God meant what He said, they wised up and never sassed Him again; at least not without serious repercussions. Moses, for instance, was never allowed to enter the Promised Land after abusing God's power he was given.
I don't know. I was always taught that God is ultimately forgiving. In the Bible, God forgave a whole lot of people for a whole lot of things. It is my impression, for example, that He forgave Saul, who became St. Paul, of all of his activities in the persecution of the first Christians. Those things, it seems to me, were a whole lot more serious than a little bit of sassing back in the process of trying to learn the will of God. Isn't that what grace is for, and the atonement?
Call me stupid, or naive, or whatever you want, but I have never been under the impression that God is in the business of trying to catch people out in the smallest thing, like a cop lurking next to the interstate with a radar gun. And sassing back really is, in the great scheme of things, pretty darn small.
Maybe I'm wrong, and I'll go to hell or the telestial kingdom or whatever. But it seems to me that if God is that nitpicky, there aren't going to be a lot of people accompanying Him through eternity. I don't think he'd even get the 140,000 or whatever number it is the Jehovah's Witnesses believe will be saved. I'm not, for those who were concerned about it, saying that I couldn't believe that God would be that particular. I'm just saying that this is not the impression I have gotten in my study of scripture.
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Actually, what I find most amusing, is that Moses sassed God all the time, and God commended him for it. it was only when Moses tried to take God's place that God condemned him.
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I think people should talk about God. The more his name comes up the better the chances are that somone whose never heard about him gets interested.
Posts: 68 | Registered: Jan 2004
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I really do have to agree with Tom on this.
I also have to add that I don't see any reason for an all powerful being to act in accordance with "good". You've only got His word to go on. What if the whole concept of good is like Santa, and just something the omniscient tell us innocents.
I suppose He could just define whatever his actions are as good, I mean, if He says it's good and he's the ultimate power, sure it's good, even if it's killing every blue eyed girl born on a Friday in May. Even if I believed in God, if that was His system, I don't think I'd follow him.
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From a Mormon point of view God is good because He is following Universal Law, and not from arbitrary rules He created. Just a thought.
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Right. So Mormons, especially, have no reason to obey someone claiming to be a god who's acting in a way they consider evil -- because any god that did would, by their own definition, not be a god anymore.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:If a being claiming to be omniscient persists in doing something I believe to be evil, I would expect it -- since it is, after all, omniscient -- to find a way to explain its actions to me in a way I could at the very least understand, if not sympathize with, if it expected my compliance. If it failed to take this step, I see no reason why I should believe it to be omniscient -- or benevolent, for that matter.
So you expect God to come down and explain himself to everyone who might consider anything He does to be evil, every time He does something? What if His reasons for doing something involves future events? Does He have to tell everyone the future? That would, at the very least, seriously upset our world.
And don't be so 'aghast' at the idea of obedience to a higher and more knowledgable power. Are you suggesting it would be absurd for children to obey/trust their parents when their parents make a decision they don't agree with? Or are you arguing a parent should have to convince the child of every decision they make, before the child should trust that parent's decision? If that were true, you'd certainly have a lot more problems with children.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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"So you expect God to come down and explain himself to everyone who might consider anything He does to be evil, every time He does something? What if His reasons for doing something involves future events? Does He have to tell everyone the future?"
Since He's presumably omnipotent, as well, this is easily within His abilities and would not constitute an undue effort. Moreover, I would assume that God would be able to tell when this kind of input would be necessary for the person's understanding and sympathy, and when it would not be. (For example, I WOULD expect God to tell everyone in the world -- directly -- exactly why He was sending a flood to wipe them out. If we're dealing with some long chain of Rube Goldbergian circumstances that would eliminate free will from someone's life forever, I would suggest that God -- if free will is important to Him -- not intervene at all, since it is after all the intervention itself and not the individual's foreknowledge of events that would eliminate the choice.)
Most importantly: if God feels the need to behave in a way that someone thinks is evil, and does NOT -- for whatever reason -- feel the need to explain himself to that person, He has no reason to expect compliance, obedience, or gratitude from that person.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Tom, I think the Lord is free to commmand or reveal a variety of things. Last night we came across a picture of an Angel stopping Abraham from sacrificing Isaac, and my daughter was really curious about that one. I don't know if you are familiar with Nephi being commanded to kill an unconscious man in the Book of Mormon, but that's a similar thing where the Lord commands someone individually to do something He has generally forbidden.
The "sassing off" point isn't whether the Lord would feel disrespected, it's more whether Joan would begin to be more thoughtful. Like I said, I only watched the one show so maybe she is thoughtful compared to how she used to be. My mom related the episode where they went to a family therapist, and Joan started wondering if the therapist was speaking for the Lord. I guess my point is that truth can come from anyone's lips if we are looking for it rather than filtering everything through an agenda.
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I often feel fairly uncomfortable when the subject of G-d comes up. This is because the people who bring the subject up with me are most often Christians who, I feel, have a hidden agenda of trying to convert me, or convince me that their point of view is right.
There is an exception to this discomfort: I don't feel uncomfortable discussing G-d and beliefs with people I know well, because I know that they respect my beliefs and are not trying to change me.
quote:I often feel fairly uncomfortable when the subject of G-d comes up. This is because the people who bring the subject up with me are most often Christians who, I feel, have a hidden agenda of trying to convert me, or convince me that their point of view is right.
Why does it make you uncomfortable when someone is trying to convince you of a point of view?
quote:There is an exception to this discomfort: I don't feel uncomfortable discussing G-d and beliefs with people I know well, because I know that they respect my beliefs and are not trying to change me.
What kind of friend would believe you are (for instance) going to hell eternally and not do anything to help you? Not a very good one, I'd think.
If I had a friend who wanted to, say, kill themselves (something terrible, although probably not as terrible as eternal damnation if there is such a thing) I would try to stop them by any means possible, regardless of whether my friend wanted me to 'respect' their beliefs. Isn't that what a real friend would do?
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I complained that it looked a little sacreligious (sp?) based on an episode I saw where her "mission" for the week was to get her driver's license. I don't know that it's worse than "Touched by an Angel". Since I only saw that twice.
