posted
Two long posts in one day -- at this rate, I will never need a landmark..... but here goes: --------------------------
Okay, I’ve not been here a full year, but I’m beginning to feel a bond, and realize that this is a good place to bring things that weigh heavy on the mind. (if nothing else, for the smart-ass comments that lighten up the subject).
So I’m going to share a personal story in hopes of gaining some third-party insight from outside of my world. Because I feel my behavior in this situation is totally irrational, but I can’t figure out why this is happening.
First, I have to back up and give a little history:
All my life, I wanted a big brother. When I was in primary school, I don’t think I realized yet that you couldn’t get a BIG brother after-the-fact. I just knew I wanted one. I had one older sister, and – later on – two half-sisters quite a bit younger than me. No male siblings. And despite the fact that I have made it clear on this board that my father and I were very close, the fact remains that I wasn’t with him 24/7 – he and my mom divorced when I was one, so I never knew them together, nor knew what it was like to have a “full-time” dad.
That lack of father/brother figure was particularly hard on me, I think, as I was “coming of age” (entering puberty). Anyway, when I was entering the tender junior high age (6th grade, I think) my sister, who is four years older and was in high school., got a boyfriend. For the sake of this post, I will call him Joe.
I adored Joe. Not just because he was my sister’s boyfriend, but because he treated me like a little sister, not like an annoyance. He would include me in his plans with my sister, take us to places together, tease me, and was generally just a super guy. Like a fantasy big brother. On top of this, because his home life was rocky, he spent LOTS of time at our house. Ate meals with us most of the time – stayed from after school until late at night. He was, for all purposes in my heart, my brother, and part of our family.
My grandmother (who raised us) and Joe started discussing religion (Joe was a long-hair kind of rebel when my sister met him). And, low and behold, Joe “found religion.” But not necessarily the kind of religion that my grandma followed – so then followed a lot of late-night discussions where they argued religion back and forth (those were really interesting). It was like watching a flower bloom – the change that came over Joe and the direction in his life.
But alas, as that direction changed, so did some other things, so after three years of dating my sister steady, they suddenly broke up. I was ABSOLUTELY DEVASTED. It is really hard to describe. When you are a child, you don’t think about people you love ever NOT being there – you don’t think about them dying or going away. They are family and you have this unconditional love that doesn’t put up walls and boundaries to protect itself. So suddenly Joe was gone. My sister and he went off to separate colleges, and it was like it never existed. Like I had a brother that went to war and never came home. But no one noticed me, of course, because I was only the “little sister of the ex-girlfriend.”
Okay – skip forward to present time. Last summer I began attending a new church (not new to town, but new to me – had some other friends that attended this church, and invited me). I really really like this church. I fits with my beliefs, and I feel I can commit to their doctrine, etc.
BUT – you guessed it – it turns out that Joe is a member of this church. Joe and his wife and seven kids. Now, it has been 30 years since I “lost” Joe as my brother. And here I have a chance to have him as “brother” again in a Christian sense – as a fellow believer. You would think I would be ecstatic.
Herein lies the problem, though. I don’t know that I can do this. I don’t know that I can keep attending this church with Joe there, because every time I look at him I start freakin’ crying!!! I don’t understand WHY I do this – it is so totally irrational. I pride myself on my emotional control – I don’t cry at funerals or weddings or sad movies. I don’t lose my cool around others. Yet all I have to do is LOOK at Joe and I begin to bawl! What the heck is wrong with me???
And of course, Joe is not some nondescript member – he often gets up to speak, or leads songs, or participates in groups I’m in. It is all I can do to maintain control. I can’t really even talk to him (He came over to greet me the very first time he saw me there – was pleased to see an old friend – and I nearly freaked). I don’t talk to his wife – not because of any bad feelings on my part, but because I’m sure she’s thinking “oh, there’s that lady who is the younger sister to my husband’s FIRST love, and I’m sure every time he sees her it makes him think of her…” <SIGH> I can’t believe I’m acting like such a girl…..
So what gives? What do you think is wrong with me? Why am I not embracing this chance to renew an old friendship and why the heck do I cry???
I'm not one of the most eloquent speakers here at Hatrack..so I'll just give you a hug and send you my empathy before the others arrive.
Posts: 3771 | Registered: Sep 2002
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There were some, at the time years ago, who said I had a "crush" on him. But what does a 12 year old know about love? I think I just adored him because he was a caring male in my life that I considered to be a brother.
posted
Maybe you resent him leaving you. I know he was dating your sister,but you said he was like a big brother to you. Think about how you would have felt if Your sister had walked out of your life.
As I stated in the thread about mothers, my father moved out when I was 3. At this point in my life i don't know what I'd do if I ever saw him again. I have alot of anger and resentment buried deep down inside.
Maybe seeing Joe brought out any resentment you had toward him for abandoning you.
posted
I was actually thinking sort of the opposite from Tom D. Is it possible that instead of viewing him as a brother figure you were partially viewing him as a father figure? Your grandfather was older it sounds like, so he could have partially filled in that niche too. Once again then the abandonment issues come into play too.
I'm sure there was some "father figure" stuff involved. Because Joe was around all the time and attentive. Grandpa was there, but grandpa was NEVER a major part of my life -- he was like always off in the peripherals. Just kept to himself mostly and was very aloof. There, but not involved.
So, regardless, how do I deal with this now? How do I make this stop?
posted
Tell him. Not in a big, emotionally dumping kind of way, but just “when you and my sister broke up I felt like I lost my older brother.” And don’t be afraid to talk to his wife – you weren’t the one dating him, she has no reason to feel threatened.
From everything you said, he sounds like he was an emotionally mature kind of guy even as a teenager. I’m sure both he and his wife can handle this.
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posted
I also wonder if the wife is the very person you should talk to. You could figure out where boundaries are that are comfortable for both of you. You will never know what she acutally thinks unless you ask her. Assuming stuff is generally inaccurate.
And she might actually be able to sort out your feelings better than anyone else. She's had seven kids with the guy so she knows what he thinks on the subject better than anything else besides him anyway!
posted
It sounds to me like you do have something related to an Oedipal/Electra complex for him. Maybe you did have a crush on him as a kid, but since he was sister's guy you repressed any sexual aspect of it (also being very young and identifying him more as a family member). If that is the case, identifying it could free you from the neurotic behavior you describe. In my totally unqualified opinion
But if you leave the congregation over this, it will merely deepen the significance of whatever it is that you don't know you feel for him. That is, the weirdness will only get weirder if for any reason you are forced into a relationship with him in the future. What if one of your children pairs up with one of his children (I think you have children but I'm not sure.) That's fairly unlikely, but then how likely would you have deemed the situation in which you now find yourself?
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posted
Addition: I don’t know the structure of your particular church, but is there a pastor or counselor, or small-group leader that could help you talk it out?
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When you were 12, he was a pivotal, essential figure in your life. But, nice as he was to you, and much as he liked you; when he broke up with your sister, he didn't make the effort to stay in touch with you. He was "pleased" to see you the first time at church -- but not effusive. He sees you as one of many old friends; you see him as the big brother who abandoned you.
Of course you cry! You perceived (and on some level, likely still do) a deeper and far more intense relationship than he did/does. You cry that it is not there, and was not even when you thought it was. (((((Farmgirl))))) That must be incredibly painful.
Of course, he has no way of knowing any of this -- he thought of you, most likely, as a nice kid; and now thinks of you as an old friend he's glad to see again. The question, I think, is whether you can accept the relationship as he sees it; remember the way you perceived it fondly, as what you needed then, without it harming what there is now.
Good luck!
[Addit: I think dkw and AJ have given great recommendations for dealing with the current situation.]
posted
I would not recommend talking to the wife or talking to Joe, at least not until you have it well sorted out in your own mind.
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posted
I would say that you never really dealt with it, it just slid into your past.
Let yourself cry over it. Go to your church leader and get some comfort. I think you just need to know that people understand that you had a loss too. Then you can let it go, and enjoy your church and friendship.
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posted
That's what I didn't know -- whether I should TALK to him about it, or just wait for it to pass so he never knows I had this dilemma of feelings. Parts of me could go either way.
(and a cheatin part of me just wants to send him a link to this page....) No, I would never do that.
posted
at sending him a link. You could do that AFTER you talk things through with him, but not instead of. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
If you don't like being Neurotic, you could always become Mormon. What kind of religion is Neurotic anyway? Just a little humor to lighten things up a bit.
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I don't really have anything useful to say, but rivka's post struck me as incredibly insightful, and made a lot of sense to me.
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posted
I don't necessarily agree with pooka's analysis of the situation (although I don't necessarily disagree with it either; I just just don't have enough information to make that kind of judgement about it), but she is right when she says that you need to deal with this, or the weirdness will only intensify. I think that dkw has the right idea; talk to your pastor or whatever it's called in your church first, and get things straightened out in your own mind, then talk to the guy and his wife, possibly together to alleviate any perception of threat on the wife's part.
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posted
Sweetie, I think a big part of it is abandonment. Rivka's post already said what I wanted to, that when he broke up with your sister, he left you - whether that's a reasonable response or not, isn't the point. That's how your 12 year old self perceived it, and because you never truly dealt with in when you were 12 it's dealing with you now.
I think you should talk it out with someone you feel comfortable with. A counselor or pastor would be preferable.
posted
Okay -- thanks for the advice all -- it does really help to talk things out here. You are right, Belle, -- when I am around him it IS like I am 12 all over again (that's how I feel) so that probably means I didn't deal with it.
Now, I need Bob_S to come in here and crack some jokes to lighten things up a bit..
quote: That is, the weirdness will only get weirder if for any reason you are forced into a relationship with him in the future. What if one of your children pairs up with one of his children (I think you have children but I'm not sure.) That's fairly unlikely, but then how likely would you have deemed the situation in which you now find yourself?
and that ISN'T too unlikely, actually. My oldest (18) thinks one of his daughters (17) is pretty sweet.... <SIGH>
posted
((( ))) Only delusional people can not be neurotic. It's because the world has a wonderful variety of experiences. Neurotic simply means being pulled in different direction and not knowing what you want. I think. At least, that's how I meant it.
Of course, I am Mormon, Tom
But knowing you want your party to win the election even though you don't actually like any of the candidates 100% is neurotic in my opinion.
posted
Gosh, where to begin. There is so much here to cry about that you're going to have to work hard to recognize the joyful parts and run with them. I hope you do.
Much of the potential tear-inducing content has already been mentioned (abandonment, possible crush, father figure, etc.) Those are all reasons to have cried this out years ago. Maybe you never got the chance and so it all surfaces now.
Then there are the reasons to cry now:
1) Your "brother" has a wife and seven kids and you never got to be part of that.
2) Those could've been your nieces and nephews if he'd married your sister.
3) You may fear losing him all over again. And, PERHAPS through that loss, losing your father all over again too (although that's a stretch given that you were too young to have any recollection of the first time through, so how could it be affecting you "again?")
I could probably think of more, but how helpful would it be? The real thing is you need to figure out a way to deal with this constructively. Some things to ask:
1) Would you LIKE to be part of this church (sounds like the answer is yes). If so, you can't be weeping every time one of the more active members gets up from the pew. So you MUST do something. That's part one. You don't have the luxury of not acting.
2) Given that, would you like to be part of this guy's life? And are you afraid of being turned down? I mean, ex-girlfriend aside, the thought of a younger woman asking to be part of their family life might be disconcerting to the spouse, and to the guy. Ample reason to think an advance might be treated with a bit of hesitation. But if the answer is "yes" then you have to do the things necessary to make everyone comfortable with you and your presence in their lives. If the answer is "no", then maybe all you need to do is habituate to his presence. I mean, you aren't likely to just keep weeping for months and years, are you? It'll go away eventually. I assume.
3) Assuming you want to be part of this family's life, what exactly would you want? Casual friendship? Family reunions in the Poconos? Anyway, it'd be best to have a goal in mind before talking to them. That way if they ask "what is it you want from us?" you can say "I was hoping to bear your eighth child" or "well, I really just wanted to catch up over coffee someday."
Here was a man who made a big difference in your life, and for whom you made a big difference in his life. He was important to you, and you were important to him.
What right does this man have to go about getting another wife, a family, a life that does not include or even acknowledge the special place that you held.
Or perhaps, sadly, you fear you were wrong. Perhaps you meant nothing to him. Your thoughts of him were false and lies and that your favorite childhood memories were just lies. The Edenesque childhood, those last days in your private Garden, were not real.
They were of course.
You did make a difference in this man's life. He had a special time with your sister and your family. Your family brought him to church and to being a much better man than he ever could have been elsewise. Your part in that, while not as major as your Grandmothers, was important.
You were more important to him than he seems to realize.
The feelings that you feel are real and should not be denied.
The fact that he has moved on does not diminish those wonderful safe gardenesque days when he was the older brother of your heart.
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Then there's the possibility that your sister would get weird on you. You know, this really could be WWIII in the making.
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posted
Gosh, FG, I think it would be more irrational for you to be ho-hum about him. He meant a lot to you! He probably has no idea how much.
I kinda look at it this way - you wanted an older brother and he fit that bill very nicely. In a real sense, you got the older brother you so much wanted. Then, totally out of your control (not unlike a divorce where the step-siblings are torn away), he's out of your life. That would hurt. It would be way weird if you didn't have some feelings about that, even now years later.
OTOH, he may well have thought of you as just a cute kid. Not particularly desperate for a younger sister, what meant a huge amount to you was probably no big deal for him. (Anecdotal aside: A friend called me yesterday to tell me something she'd seen in watching my son a few weeks ago. We facilitate a stepfamily support group, and have childcare during our sessions. One of the kids, a kindergartener named Jessie, hated coming to childcare while his mom took another class. My son, a 4th grader, started playing with Jessie and spending time with him. It wasn't any big deal to him at all...he likes younger kids. It was a HUGE thing to Jessie, though. Now when we go to church, Jessie makes a point to come over and say hi to Christian and talk with him. Jessie's mom said that what was no big deal for Christian has made all the difference in the world to Jessie.)
I think it would be really neat for you to get a chance to tell Joe how much that time meant to you. I also think it would help you not feel so irrational about it (though in all honesty, I don't think it's irrational at all, how you feel). You might want to talk to someone who knows you both before you approach Joe directly, just to get stuff sorted out and to make sure that letting Joe know wouldn't cause him or his family any problems.
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posted
Just be careful about talking too much to mutual friends before you talk to him directly. This is a rural church, yes? Rumors spread (and grow) like wildfire.
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posted
Well, dkw -- I haven't talked to ANYONE about it until now. At all. So no chance of him finding out through other means at this point. (That's what I like about Hatrack -- totally removed from the situation, no pre-conceived opinions)
quote: Then there's the possibility that your sister would get weird on you. You know, this really could be WWIII in the making
Actually, my sister is quite "okay" with him -- they ran into each other a few years back, had a nice chat over coffee to talk about old times, then walked away with no hard feelings or loose ends. She thinks its cool I attend the same church as him, but has no idea it affects me this way. If she did, she is the type that would say "just get over it, already!"
Bob said:
quote:2) Given that, would you like to be part of this guy's life?
All I want is to be able to smile and chat and talk with him the same as I do any other church member. I don't want to ingratiate myself into his family or life now. I simply don't want to cry whenever I see him. I just want control of myself back when he is around. That's all - nothing more.
Does he really need to know that he was that important to me? Wouldn't that make him feel ackward now? You men out there -- would you be weirded out if some little sister of a gal you dated said something like that to you?
I wish I could just sit down over coffee with him and explain all this. For me, just getting it OFF my chest would make it go away. I know this based on past experiences. However, I can't fathom the idea of sitting there talking to him without tearing up -- and I will NOT cry in front of Joe. (That truly is not his real name, either)
posted
Does getting it off your chest put it onto someone else? I know I'm not the sanest person, but if I were his wife the scenario you have described would give me the willies. (if you remove the info about your father, maybe it would be okay. But you put it in to begin with.)
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posted
I don't think you need to tell him all of this. I also don't think you really should want to become part of his extended family now. I think either of these is more likely than not to lead to discomfort down the line. So I think the best thing right now is somebody understanding to listen to you work through your own feelings, like a pastor or a friend. I have to leave work now, or I would write more. All I have time for right now is my instinctual blurtings.
quote:Does getting it off your chest put it onto someone else? I know I'm not the sanest person, but if I were his wife the scenario you have described would give me the willies. (if you remove the info about your father, maybe it would be okay. But you put it in to begin with.)
I guess I'm not following your train of thought here, pooka. What did I say about my dad that would give Joe's wife the willies? I don't plan to go out of my way to talk to her. I will make an effort to speak to her in passing in church like I do other people, but I'm definately not trying to become best buds or anything there.
posted
I say don't go to his wife there's no reason to. I mean, I'm sure that in church you'll have opportunity to connect with her, and she is a fellow sister in Christ, and that's fine.
It wouldn't hurt to mention your relationship to her, but in a totally informative way. "You know, when I was a kid, I thought of your husband as kind of a big brother. I think it's great to see him so happy with you and such a wonderful family."
The crying with seeing him is almost certainly going to be a temporary thing. This is not going to affect your relationship the rest of your life and it's not something you need to leave the church over. This is repressed feelings - they were painful to you as a 12 year old so you stuffed them away somewhere, and now they're surfacing. Once you acknowledge them and deal with them, I have no doubt you'll be able to interact with Joe on a normal basis.
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posted
I guess maybe I haven't made myself very clear overall.
I DON'T want any kind of relationship with him now. I would be happy with just me attending church, and him attending church, and never really saying much of anything to the other.
I just want to quit getting upset and emotional about it. It's ME I want to change, not the situation.
posted
I think I will revise my previous suggestion now that you clarified more. I thought you did want to resume a brother type relationship with him if possible.
I think rather than talking to the wife, though it still wouldn't be a bad idea because I think everyone is making assumptions about her that may or may not be true, you should talk to a professional pastor or counselor to hash through possible abandonment issues that this brings to the forefront. On the other hand if you don't have the $$ for that there is always Hatrack
posted
Thanks Belle (I already wrote this once, but my browser locked up).
You know, just posting it up here and talking about it has already helped a great deal.
I know that Joe's wife already knows who I am, i.e.) how we knew each other years ago. You know, small town and all that. I am sure Joe told her that much -- that I knew him "way back when" some 30 years ago. I don't think I need to bring it up again.
I hope you're right -- if I give it time, it will eventually just go away, and things will normalize again.
posted
I think this will pass. You know you don't want a "relationship" so it's just a bunch of emotions crowding in all at once. It'll fade. Proabably pretty quickly too.
Actually, it may fade MORE quickly once you start talking to him and his family because you'll replace the memory of him with the reality of him.
If it were me, I'd be flattered to know that you thought of me that way -- as a big brother. But I'd be worried about your sanity if it clearly made you too emotional as you said it. The time for that revelation is later on, when you've habituated to his presence.
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posted
You know, FG - I've done a lot of crying in church - and I don't think of it so much as connected to any particular person or event, as simply a way of cleaning out past "stuff" in a safe place.
I'm not talking "big teary, sobbing that attracts everyone's attention" kind of thing. It's just that these feelings which are very complex well up and the tears start to leak down my cheeks.
I did talk to a couple of trusted members about this, and they said that everyone they know has gone through a phase like that where they just need to sit in a quiet pew and cry. That it's okay - there doesn't need to be a reason at all. It's just part of a cleaning out, allowing some spaces to empty so that perhaps God can then fill them with something else.
I think we ignore spiritual healing alot in our culture. I think you are just fine - here's a hug. Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I would like to offer some thoughts from Joe's perspective.
I think I was somewhat of a "big brother" type to my high school sweetheart's little sister. She was a really shy girl and I enjoyed bringing her out of her shell by inviting her to all sorts of social events that she usually wasn't invited to. I also helped her with her homework and tried to listen to her problems when she felt she couldn't handle all the pressures of high school.
I'm 29 now. If this girl comes up to me today and tells me that I was a huge influence in her life, I would be absolutely flattered. I genuinely cared about this girl's happiness and wasn't just nice to her to score points with her big sister.
I was a only child, so I really enjoyed having a "little sister" to take care of. You should remember that you probably also filled a hole in Joe's life as much as he has filled a hole in yours (no sexual connotations intended).
You should be overjoyed at finding Joe again. Give him a chance and tell him how you feel.
Edited for your enjoyment.
[ January 29, 2004, 02:10 AM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
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posted
Thank you Beren. That was very insightful. It sounds like you really do relate to the situation. (I hope somewhere that poor girl isn't crying over you).
posted
Beren, telling Joe that he was a big influence would be flattering. Telling him that she was devastated by his leaving and is still distraught when she sees him might be a bit much.
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at sending him a link. You could do that AFTER you talk things through with him, but not instead of. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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pooka called me neurotic!![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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my new big brother!!
