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Storm Saxon
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http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=2495

quote:

The Hispanic Challenge

By Samuel P. Huntington Page 1 of 12


March/April 2004

The persistent inflow of Hispanic immigrants threatens to divide the United States into two peoples, two cultures, and two languages. Unlike past immigrant groups, Mexicans and other Latinos have not assimilated into mainstream U.S. culture, forming instead their own political and linguistic enclaves—from Los Angeles to Miami—and rejecting the Anglo-Protestant values that built the American dream. The United States ignores this challenge at its peril.

America was created by 17th- and 18th-century settlers who were overwhelmingly white, British, and Protestant. Their values, institutions, and culture provided the foundation for and shaped the development of the United States in the following centuries. They initially defined America in terms of race, ethnicity, culture, and religion. Then, in the 18th century, they also had to define America ideologically to justify independence from their home country, which was also white, British, and Protestant. Thomas Jefferson set forth this “creed,” as Nobel Prize-winning economist Gunnar Myrdal called it, in the Declaration of Independence, and ever since, its principles have been reiterated by statesmen and espoused by the public as an essential component of U.S. identity.

By the latter years of the 19th century, however, the ethnic component had been broadened to include Germans, Irish, and Scandinavians, and the United States' religious identity was being redefined more broadly from Protestant to Christian. With World War II and the assimilation of large numbers of southern and eastern European immigrants and their offspring into U.S. society, ethnicity virtually disappeared as a defining component of national identity. So did race, following the achievements of the civil rights movement and the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965. Americans now see and endorse their country as multiethnic and multiracial. As a result, American identity is now defined in terms of culture and creed.

Most Americans see the creed as the crucial element of their national identity. The creed, however, was the product of the distinct Anglo-Protestant culture of the founding settlers. Key elements of that culture include the English language; Christianity; religious commitment; English concepts of the rule of law, including the responsibility of rulers and the rights of individuals; and dissenting Protestant values of individualism, the work ethic, and the belief that humans have the ability and the duty to try to create a heaven on earth, a “city on a hill.” Historically, millions of immigrants were attracted to the United States because of this culture and the economic opportunities and political liberties it made possible.

Contributions from immigrant cultures modified and enriched the Anglo-Protestant culture of the founding settlers. The essentials of that founding culture remained the bedrock of U.S. identity, however, at least until the last decades of the 20th century. Would the United States be the country that it has been and that it largely remains today if it had been settled in the 17th and 18th centuries not by British Protestants but by French, Spanish, or Portuguese Catholics? The answer is clearly no. It would not be the United States; it would be Quebec, Mexico, or Brazil.


In the final decades of the 20th century, however, the United States' Anglo-Protestant culture and the creed that it produced came under assault by the popularity in intellectual and political circles of the doctrines of multiculturalism and diversity; the rise of group identities based on race, ethnicity, and gender over national identity; the impact of transnational cultural diasporas; the expanding number of immigrants with dual nationalities and dual loyalties; and the growing salience for U.S. intellectual, business, and political elites of cosmopolitan and transnational identities. The United States' national identity, like that of other nation-states, is challenged by the forces of globalization as well as the needs that globalization produces among people for smaller and more meaningful “blood and belief” identities.

In this new era, the single most immediate and most serious challenge to America's traditional identity comes from the immense and continuing immigration from Latin America, especially from Mexico, and the fertility rates of these immigrants compared to black and white American natives. Americans like to boast of their past success in assimilating millions of immigrants into their society, culture, and politics. But Americans have tended to generalize about immigrants without distinguishing among them and have focused on the economic costs and benefits of immigration, ignoring its social and cultural consequences. As a result, they have overlooked the unique characteristics and problems posed by contemporary Hispanic immigration. The extent and nature of this immigration differ fundamentally from those of previous immigration, and the assimilation successes of the past are unlikely to be duplicated with the contemporary flood of immigrants from Latin America. This reality poses a fundamental question: Will the United States remain a country with a single national language and a core Anglo-Protestant culture? By ignoring this question, Americans acquiesce to their eventual transformation into two peoples with two cultures (Anglo and Hispanic) and two languages (English and Spanish).

The impact of Mexican immigration on the United States becomes evident when one imagines what would happen if Mexican immigration abruptly stopped. The annual flow of legal immigrants would drop by about 175,000, closer to the level recommended by the 1990s Commission on Immigration Reform chaired by former U.S. Congresswoman Barbara Jordan. Illegal entries would diminish dramatically. The wages of low-income U.S. citizens would improve. Debates over the use of Spanish and whether English should be made the official language of state and national governments would subside. Bilingual education and the controversies it spawns would virtually disappear, as would controversies over welfare and other benefits for immigrants. The debate over whether immigrants pose an economic burden on state and federal governments would be decisively resolved in the negative. The average education and skills of the immigrants continuing to arrive would reach their highest levels in U.S. history. The inflow of immigrants would again become highly diverse, creating increased incentives for all immigrants to learn English and absorb U.S. culture. And most important of all, the possibility of a de facto split between a predominantly Spanish-speaking United States and an English-speaking United States would disappear, and with it, a major potential threat to the country's cultural and political integrity.


Racism cloaked in intellectualism, or valid concern?
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Farmgirl
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In a related train of thought,

http://www.vdare.com/awall/deadbeat_dads.htm

My cousin wrote this article about immigration -- from a different point of view than I had ever considered before. He has lived (and current lives) in Mexico for many years.

Farmgirl

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lcarus
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Disgusting prejudice, and gross ignorance of facts. I will write a lengthy rant when I have time, but for now let me assert that no foreign language-speaking immigrant population in the history of the United States has ever assimilated faster than the latino population has.
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lcarus
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FG, given that deadbeat dads are a problem in the US as well as in Mexico, why the suggestion that this is a uniquely Mexican "family value"?

I will respond to the other points in the article later on . . .

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Storm Saxon
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Cool. Thank you, Icarus. [Smile]
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Farmgirl
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I don't think it is saying it is unique to Mexico. Obviously, we all know it is a problem here as well.

It was just enlightening to me to read it, because I always felt sorry for the immigrants, figuring they were trying to find a better life for their families (which many are), just as I would probably do myself.

I didn't think about the fact that some of them were actually running AWAY from responsibilities.

Just hadn't occurred to me for some reason.

Farmgirl

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pooka
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I think it is anti-catholic bigotry, not very successfully cloaked. "city on a hill". Pffft. I like Abraham Lincoln's idea of a land of opportunity for all, which requires tolerance.
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lcarus
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quote:
I don't think it is saying it is unique to Mexico.
Explicitly, it says it's not. Late in the article. But early in the article, it says, basically, "Yes, as Bush says, they have family values. However, they are not good family values." The implication to me is quite clearly that Americans are fit to judge what good family values are because they have them, and the Mexican family values, by and large, are not good one. I don't see it as an out and out assertion, but a dirty rhetorical trick.
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Farmgirl
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Good point.
Allan should have qualified it - with "not ALL of them are pursuing good family values." That first comment does look too generalized and sweeping.

I'll e-mail him about it.

Farmgirl

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BannaOj
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Re: Hispanic immigrants

Work Ethic: Check
Family Values: Check
Work Ethic: Check

I think this article would be offensive to Irish and Eastern European Catholics too. Why are the "brown" ones different from all other catholics other than the color of their skin?

And the total fallacy about the US poor actually having their wages increas if we stopped the tide of illegal immgrants is bogus. What would actually happen is produce prices would skyrocket totally altering much of the cheap readily available food that allows our society to flourish.

AJ

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lcarus
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That would be better, FG--it does not seem objectionable then.

[ March 05, 2004, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: lcarus ]

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sndrake
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From the first article:

quote:
In this new era, the single most immediate and most serious challenge to America's traditional identity comes from the immense and continuing immigration from Latin America, especially from Mexico, and the fertility rates of these immigrants compared to black and white American natives. Americans like to boast of their past success in assimilating millions of immigrants into their society, culture, and politics. But Americans have tended to generalize about immigrants without distinguishing among them and have focused on the economic costs and benefits of immigration, ignoring its social and cultural consequences. As a result, they have overlooked the unique characteristics and problems posed by contemporary Hispanic immigration. The extent and nature of this immigration differ fundamentally from those of previous immigration, and the assimilation successes of the past are unlikely to be duplicated with the contemporary flood of immigrants from Latin America.
I thought this sounded familiar:

Eugenics Laws Restricting Immigration

quote:
Pressures for further immigration restrictions arose from several quarters of American society. Advocates for American workers wanted to forestall competition from cheap foreign labor. The Boston-based Immigration Restriction League joined this chorus of alarm with calls to require a "literacy test" as a condition of entry into the United States. The League's proposal was given more credence with the publication of Carl Brigham's Study of American Intelligence, which cited the supposed low quality of army recruits of southern and eastern European heritage.

The sheer number of new arrivals troubled many U.S. citizens. In the late 1870's, the annual average number of immigrants fell just short of 150,000. By the turn of the century, that number had increased to almost 800,000, and in 1907 it passed 11/4 million. As the numbers of immigrants increased, eugenicists allied themselves with other interest groups to provide biological arguments to support immigration restriction.

quote:
The resulting law, the Immigration Restriction Act of 1924, was designed consciously to halt the immigration of supposedly "dysgenic" Italians and eastern European Jews, whose numbers had mushroomed during the period from 1900 to 1920. The method was simply to scale the number of immigrants from each country in proportion to their percentage of the U.S. population in the 1890 census – when northern and western Europeans were the dominant immigrants. Under the new law, the quota of southern and eastern Europeans was reduced from 45% to 15%. The 1924 Act ended the greatest era of immigration in U.S. history.

Upon signing the Act, President Calvin Coolidge commented, "America must remain American." This phrase would become the rallying cry of anti-immigration sentiment until after World War II. The eugenic intent of the 1924 law and the quota system it established remained in place until they were repealed by the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965. (emphasis added)

The more things change, the more they stay the same. [Wink]
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Storm Saxon
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At the risk of being tarred and feathered as a racist, let me point out that your post in no way refutes any of the evidence presented in the article, sndrake.
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sndrake
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Storm, there's at least one fallacy the piece uses for support - that the previous waves of immigration of non-English speaking people were smoother. They were met with opposition - some of it rational, a lot of it not. Rational or not - a lot of it was dressed up to look rational. If we'd become familiar with the less comfortable parts of our history, we might approach these things with a little more caution and humility. It's worth a try, anyway.

[ March 05, 2004, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: sndrake ]

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Storm Saxon
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I'm still working my way through the article, but does he actually make that claim? So far, his claims seem to be that previous waves of immigration were mostly smaller and that those immigrants assimilated into 'mainstream' culture; that current immigrants are much less amenable to assimilation. Does he make the claim that previous waves weren't met with opposition or that there wasn't some difficulty?

[ March 08, 2004, 02:09 AM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]

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Jacare Sorridente
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This is a valid concern I think. The cultural differences can be easliy dismissed- after all, outside of latinos there is already a huge range of American cultures. The big issue is the language issue in my opinion. Hispanics have a tendency to form spanish-speaking communitites which, in fact all other ethnic and language groups appear to do as well (blacks, Chinese etc). The difference is that there are enough hispanics that they can actually have nearly self-sufficient communities which allow immigrants to speak only spanish in almost all of their activities (buying groceries, car repair etc) which means they don't have to learn English. And let's face it, most people who don't have to do something which requires a lot of work and potential embarassment won't do it. This, in itself isn't a real problem in my eyes. The problem is if first AMerican generation kids also don't learn ENglish because they have Spanish schools etc.

I don't know what the answer for this problem is. Obviously you can't force people to learn English. But at any rate I don't think that anything beyond learning English is a real issue.

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skillery
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My only problem with Hispanic immigrants is that I don't speak Spanish. That's my problem, not theirs. English isn't any better than Spanish.

In the past we've had wars and depressions that gave us a national identity by putting people of all ethnicities and nationalities together in the same trenches and soup lines. I wouldn't be praying for another unifying event such as that.

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sndrake
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Storm,

No, *sigh* he probably doesn't. But the arguments he's using are old ones. When the author makes a reference to the comparative reproductive rates of Latinos vs. whites and blacks he's reproducing a dominant argument used in the old immigration battles. That's worth knowing in reading the article - the idea that immigrants will "outbreed" us and supplant our culture is not a new one. The author is ignorant of that or is counting on his readers being ignorant of that.

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BannaOj
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quote:
The difference is that there are enough hispanics that they can actually have nearly self-sufficient communities which allow immigrants to speak only spanish in almost all of their activities (buying groceries, car repair etc) which means they don't have to learn English.
Come to Chicago, there are numerous non-hispanic close knit communities that have retained their own language even after a generation or two.

I don't think it is ever the first generation that completely fits in. It is the second and third generations that assimilate. In "Hispanic" migration they should compare look at the second and third generations that are already here. They are also lumping it all into one giant current "wave" which is most definitely untrue. Hispanic migration has been through out history. Many Californios, for example, have roots deeper than the U.S. itself. The brush used is way too broad, and no effort is made to even admit the generalizations are generalizations.

AJ

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Storm Saxon
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(written to sndrake)
Well, *I'm* not ignorant of it. [Smile] I'm well aware of the old 'They're out to get our children!' argument. It's rampant in the whole gay marriage debate.

I'm not saying that the motivation for this gentleman might not be that he's 'racist' or biased. I'm only on page 7, but he has yet to point out any of the well known benefits of immigration (the well known cheap fruit argument, for instance, that banna cites.).

This doesn't mean that the topic doesn't need to be brought up, that there may, in fact, be a large segment of the hispanic population that doesn't want to assimilate. If this is true, what does it mean? If it's not true, then should immigrants be encouraged to assimilate or not? I don't know. Some of the stuff he's writing are things that I've heard before, but I don't *know* that they're true since I haven't personally experienced them. Some of the stuff, I think is false and does indicate that he may be blowing the problem out of proportion. I've lived in El Paso, and while I definitely experienced racism towards me because I was white, I also found a huge, vast number of friendly hispanic people. I found that white people and brown people got along pretty well. The predominance of the hispanic culture didn't really effect me beyond there being a large number of hot hispanic women to choose from. [Smile] On the other hand, I didn't grow up there. So, I'm not really qualified to really give an in depth opinion of hte town. [Dont Know]

[ March 05, 2004, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]

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Kasie H
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"The author" in this case is no ordinary author -- Samuel Huntington promises to be the bane of my existence for at least the next few months -- eventually I'll have to write a 12ish-page paper on his "Clash of Civilizations," which is a cornerstone of current thinking about international affairs.

While some of you might simply dismiss him as a racist, I'd take a second look at what he has to say -- because the professional and political community that shape our domestic and foreign policy are going to be listening to him.

--

As soon as I have some time to work through this, though, I'll let you know what I think.

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Storm Saxon
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Banna, he actually contrasts the various waves of edit: not hispanic, Mexican immigration and argues that assimilation is not very important edit: to any of the waves.

more editing *sigh*. I'm at work and doing this stuff in between calls. [Smile]

[ March 05, 2004, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]

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BannaOj
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holy moly, there are eleven more pages of that article!!!!
oh my, I had no idea

AJ

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John L
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quote:
The persistent inflow of Hispanic immigrants threatens to divide the United States into two peoples, two cultures, and two languages. Unlike past immigrant groups, Mexicans and other Latinos have not assimilated into mainstream U.S. culture, forming instead their own political and linguistic enclaves—from Los Angeles to Miami—and rejecting the Anglo-Protestant values that built the American dream. The United States ignores this challenge at its peril.
I'd say definite racism, but I would argue that it even touches "intellecualism" (maybe only in the pseudo-sense) judging from just this introduction.

And as Icky said, the rest of it is just outright sickening.

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T. Analog Kid
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Speaking as a thoroughly anglicized Hispanic (my last name is *SCOTT* for crying out loud!) I really object to being ignored [Smile]

I really don't like the author's tone and so I couldn't get very far into the article, but yes, it does sound racist to me.

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Farmgirl
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Hey let them come on in!

Just hurry up and get me one of those Star Trek Universal Translators thingys. So I can understand everyone.

I took Spanish a year in school, and I don't remember any of it. Foreign languages don't come easily to me.

FG

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Lalo
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You gringos have no idea. Today your nurseries and your gardens -- tomorrow, your government!

There's nothing I like more than taking America away from real Americans.

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fiazko
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quote:
My only problem with Hispanic immigrants is that I don't speak Spanish. That's my problem, not theirs. English isn't any better than Spanish.
It's not that English is any better than Spanish. It's that this is an English-speaking country, and while there are plenty of people who speak other languages, the country as a whole is not bilingual. Nor should it be, IMO, but that's not my point.

I work in a hospital. A university hospital. Supposedly, we have interpreters available that speak Hmong and Tagalog, two languages I've never even heard of. The problem is that when a patient comes in that is unable to communicate with the medical staff or even registration, they are at a greater risk of not being treated in time for something serious. Almost every night that I'm here, there is a Hispanic patient, sometimes with family present, that is literally just sitting somewhere waiting for an interpreter to show up. Granted, more often than not, the nurse can figure out the gist of what their complaint is, and sometimes registration can get enough to get them a number. I just don't want to be here the night that a Hispanic mother brings in a kid who's not breathing, and the medical staff can't figure out what's wrong because the mother doesn't speak English.

I'm trying to only point out the consequences that impact Hispanic themselves without getting in to how the delay affects everyone else. I don't have a problem with immigrants from anywhere, but a high percentage of cases we have that require interpreters are for Spanish-speakers.

Maybe it's not necessarily that Hispanics are the only ones who don't learn English. Maybe there's just that many more of them or they're just that new to the country. Maybe I'm just bitter because I look Hispanic (I'm not), so when they walk in the door, they expect me to be able to talk to them, and maybe I'm wrong for refusing to learn Spanish just because it's such a widespread phenomenon. I don't expect any more from Hispanics than I do from any other immigrant/emigrant (I'll look up the difference in a minute). I expect them to learn at least enough English to function. And I expect them, if they're serious about making America their country, to become citizens, but that'a discussion for another day.

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Storm Saxon
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http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=scholar&s=drezner030304
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John L
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quote:
It's not that English is any better than Spanish. It's that this is an English-speaking country, and while there are plenty of people who speak other languages, the country as a whole is not bilingual. Nor should it be, IMO, but that's not my point.
Are you seriously trying to assert that English is the national language? If so, do you realize the utter ignorance (and falsehood) of such a statement?

America is one of the only nations in the world where there is not a majority of the population with at least a modicum of bilingual ability.

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Danzig
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So what if the Hispanics are taking over? Who cares? This entire nation is largely the result of immigration. As long as there are no legal requirements to accomodate non-English speakers, I could care less. In fact, I welcome them, and would support automatic or near-automatic citizenship for anyone who lives here for a reasonably short period of time. Perhaps three years. Before that time, they should still be allowed to live and work here.
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Danzig
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English is not the national language, but neither is any other. You might be able to make a case that government stuff should be in any language necessary, or you might not, but if Hispanics are to be integrated into our society then learning English can only help.
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John L
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With most of them, their English is a whole lot better than most people's Spanish. From that perspective, it makes the Hispanic community the one being wronged.
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Danzig
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But that perspective is silly if they are the ones moving here. Were English speakers moving to Mexico or Cuba then I would say learn Spanish. Spanish (or whatever language) speakers are welcome to move here, and really I could care less whether they learn English or not, but I will not learn Spanish until I cannot interact with others without knowing it.
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Danzig
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Okay, somebody phantom bumped this. Who was it?
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lcarus
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I did . . . I wasn't done typing yet, when I accidentally submitted.

Must be because I'm Latino. [Wink]

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Danzig
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I see. Well, hello if you are still online. What time do you have to be at school tomorrow?
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lcarus
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Storm's New Republic link does a good job of answering the article, but here are some additional thoughts . . .

First of all, I would encourage everyone to read the whole article, all twelve pages, because when you wade through the whole thing, it's pretty hard to miss the naked xenophobia present there. Many facts are presented that are irrelevant to his thesis, that are simply evidence of Latinos taking pride in their culture, but not in any way indicative of a threat to mainstream American culture.

One of my favorite parts of the article is its wishful thinking section:

quote:
The impact of Mexican immigration on the United States becomes evident when one imagines what would happen if Mexican immigration abruptly stopped. The annual flow of legal immigrants would drop by about 175,000, closer to the level recommended by the 1990s Commission on Immigration Reform chaired by former U.S. Congresswoman Barbara Jordan. Illegal entries would diminish dramatically. The wages of low-income U.S. citizens would improve. [Says who?] Debates over the use of Spanish and whether English should be made the official language of state and national governments would subside. [Just from stopping immigration? What of all the Latinos already here? Have they been deported in Huntington's dream scenario?]Bilingual education and the controversies it spawns would virtually disappear, as would controversies over welfare and other benefits for immigrants. [See my comment above.] The debate over whether immigrants pose an economic burden on state and federal governments would be decisively resolved in the negative. The average education and skills of the immigrants continuing to arrive would reach their highest levels in U.S. history. The inflow of immigrants would again become highly diverse, creating increased incentives for all immigrants to learn English and absorb U.S. culture. And most important of all, the possibility of a de facto split between
a predominantly Spanish-speaking United States and an English-speaking United States would disappear, and with it, a major potential threat to the country's cultural and political integrity.

Wow! What a boon! You know, if you replaced the words "Mexican" and "Hispanic" with "black" in that passage, you could point to many "advantages" that would accrue if the black population suddenly disappeared, or at least ceased to grow: Debates over the acceptability of Ebonics would cease, our social service structures would be less taxed, racial tensions would lessen, there would be less riots. The debate over whether blacks pose an economic burden on state and federal governments would be decisively resolved in the negative. What a wonderful white world Huntington envisions.

The later pages in this article abound in fear tactics: those Latinos are going to make you learn Spanish to survive; they're going to discriminate against you, and you will know what it's like to be in the minority; they hold Americans and American culture in contempt.

Case in point:

quote:
It is quite different to argue that Americans should know a non-English language in order to communicate with their fellow citizens. Yet that is what the Spanish-language advocates have in mind.
And later:

quote:
Dual-language programs, which go one step beyond bilingual education, have become increasingly popular. In these programs, students are taught in both English and Spanish on an alternating basis with a view to making English-speakers fluent in Spanish and Spanish-speakers fluent in English, thus making Spanish the equal of English and transforming the United States into a two-language country.
Um, this does not describe any dual language program I have seen. While the merits of dual language can certainly be debated, the purpose of dual language is to teach English to non-English speakers. Making Americans bilingual is not a goal. If Huntington is referring to IB programs, then that is a whole different ball of wax. First of all, IB comes from Europe, the continent where all the good things come from for Huntington. This is not a case of Hispanics forcing Spanish into the curriculum for helpless American boys and girls, but rather, people from all over coming to believe that speaking a second language--any second language--is of significant educational benefit to a person.

quote:
If the spread of Spanish as the United States' second language continues, it could, in due course, have significant consequences in politics and government. In many states, those aspiring to political office might have to be fluent in both languages. Bilingual candidates for president and elected federal positions would have an advantage over English-only speakers. If dual-language education becomes prevalent in elementary and secondary schools, teachers will increasingly be expected to be bilingual. Government documents and forms could routinely be published in both languages. The use of both languages could become acceptable in congressional hearings and debates and in the general conduct of government business. Because most of those whose first language is Spanish will also probably have some fluency in English, English speakers lacking fluency in Spanish are likely to be and feel at a disadvantage in the competition for jobs, promotions, and contracts.
OH NO! ¡EL BOOGIEMAN VIENE!

Who knew Huntington was into speculative fiction?

quote:
Empirical evidence confirms such appearances. A 1992 study of children of immigrants in Southern California and South Florida posed the following question: “How do you identify, that is, what do you call yourself?” None of the children born in Mexico answered “American,” compared with 1.9 percent to 9.3 percent of those born elsewhere in Latin America or the Caribbean. The largest percentage of Mexican-born children (41.2 percent) identified themselves as “Hispanic,” and the second largest (36.2 percent) chose “Mexican.” Among Mexican-American children born in the United States, less than 4 percent responded “American,” compared to 28.5 percent to 50 percent of those born in the United States with parents from elsewhere in Latin America. Whether born in Mexico or in the United States, Mexican children overwhelmingly did not choose “American” as their primary identification.
This is not "empirical evidence" of anything but loaded questions and alarmist writing. I'm sure these kids didn't realize that being Hispanic was mutually exclusive with being American, and that their whole culture would be judged by their responses. Huntington also fails to take into account that American culture trains kids to self-identify this way. On all the standardized tests, kids have to bubble in their ethnic background. "American" is not an option. You also cannot be Hispanic and White, or Hispanic and Black. In light of this, self-identifying as Hispanic would seem the most natural thing. It would also seem to me to be completely benign, and not at all evidence of an underlying disloyalty to the United States on the part of these children.

Speaking of fear tactics, I got a kick out of his referring to the Mexican immigration into the Southwest as a "Reconquista"! You better look out, Gringos, because this used to be our land! Now we're back, and we're pissed! [Roll Eyes]

quote:
By 2000, two thirds of Miami's people were Hispanic,
Actually, closer to 57%, if the census is to be believed . . .

quote:
. . . and more than half were Cuban or of Cuban descent.
This is misleadingly phrased to suggest more than half of Miamians are of Cuban descent. According to the Cuban American National Council's analysis of the 2000 Census data, Cubans comprised about 50% of Miami's Hispanic population, not the population at large.

(In any case, so?)

quote:
In 2000, only 31.1 percent of adult Miami residents said they spoke English very well, compared to 39.0 percent in Los Angeles, 42.5 percent in San Francisco, and 46.5 percent in New York.
I'm curious to know where he got this statistic from, because it certainly does not match my experience of living in Miami for at least twenty years. From the time I learned English on, I conducted virtually all of my day to day affairs in English, and most people I came into contact with in all walks of life spoke English. And I would say that the majority spoke it well.

quote:
The Cubans did not, in the traditional pattern, create an enclave immigrant neighborhood. Instead, they created an enclave city with its own culture and economy, in which assimilation and Americanization were unnecessary and in some measure undesired.
Bull. The vast, vast majority of first generation Cuban-Americans (I prefer this term to Huntington's and other's use of "second-generation Cubans") speak English better than they do Spanish. There is an immigrant neighborhood: Little Havana. But to equate little Havana with all of Miami is beyond disingenuous.

quote:
By 2000, Spanish was not just the language spoken in most homes, it was also the principal language of commerce, business, and politics. The media and communications industry became increasingly Hispanic. In 1998, a Spanish-language television station became the number-one station watched by Miamians—the first time a foreign-language station achieved that rating in a major U.S. city.
Again, for the anecdotal first part of his claim, I say Bull. The principal language of commerce, business, and politics was still English. Mayoral debates were certainly not carried out in Spanish. As for the single weak piece of evidence, the number-one rating by a foreign language station, this is pretty easily explained. Not counting cable stations, Miami has about ten English language TV stations. (Count cable channels, which would only be fair, since they also compete for viewership, and the number goes up by dozens.) On the other hand, there are only two Spanish language stations. Viewers of Spanish language TV are concentrated into fewer stations; it makes sense that these two stations have more viewers than any single English language one.

quote:
The Cuban and Hispanic dominance of Miami left Anglos (as well as blacks) as outside minorities that could often be ignored. Unable to communicate with government bureaucrats and discriminated against by store clerks, the Anglos came to realize, as one of them put it, “My God, this is what it's like to be the minority.”
Be afraid. Be very afraid. Incidentally, other than anecdotally, how does Huntington document the widespread discrimination against Anglos by Hispanics?

quote:
. . . Or they could leave Miami, and between 1983 and 1993, about 140,000 did just that, their exodus reflected in a popular bumper sticker: “Will the last American to leave Miami, please bring the flag.”
They did indeed leave Miami. Because of their own prejudice. One of the reasons for my instinctive dislike of all things related to Broward County. But the fact that people feel threatened by blacks does not mean that blacks are bad, or that the threat is legitimate. Same goes here. And I remember that hate-filled bumper sticker. And this Cuban-American who learned English as a second language would be delighted to explain the difference between "bring" and "take" to any English-speaking Anglo Americans who aren't sure what it is. [Big Grin]

One of the most annoying things about the article is how he waffles on the nature of the threat. MEXICAN IMMIGRANTS = UNSUCCESSFUL = A BAD THING. CUBAN IMMIGRANTS = SUCCESSFUL = A BAD THING. Well, he can't have it both ways!

Now, looking at some evidence, and some thoughts by other people . . .

Earl Shorris, in his book, Latinos: A Biography of the People (1992), contrasts the immigrant experience of Latinos with that of Europeans of the past two centuries.

According to Shorris, Europeans were welcomed with "the new social contract" which guarantees success for, if not the immigrant, then for his/her children (132). In the case of the Latino immigrant only a small percentage have been able to experience this "new social contract," but when this element is present:

quote:
[T]he Latino family behaves in the classic immigrant pattern. The parents struggle; the children go to college; the family joins the middle class. Social mobility is understood as a clause in the new contract, the prophecy is self-fulfilling. (132)
In other words, if Latinos are, in fact assimilating more slowly than other immigrant groups—a hypothesis called into doubt by almost all of the sources I found, by the way—perhaps we should also compare the welcome they have received to that of other, whiter immigrant groups.

This Washington Post article suggests that Latinos are assimilating more quickly than Huntington claims. According to the article, most of the children of Hispanic immigrants are expected to surpass their parents in educational level and earnings. One good point that this article raised in my mind related to the economics of blue collar workers. In all large immigrant groups, it has been common for the first two generations to take blue collar jobs, as educational levels gradually increased. But, as has often been noted, several decades ago it was possible to earn a decent living at such a job. College was not seen as a universal requirement as it is today. In this day and age, this is no longer the case. Thus, it seems to me, blue collar immigrant families live in a lower socio-economic status than other immigrants before them. And study after study has shown that SES is a big determining factor in the success of children. So it may be that Latino immigrants face more of an uphill battle than many other immigrants have faced.

Many articles, including the Washington Post one above, referenced a study by the Pew Hispanic Center, which challenges many of the assertions of Huntington. I found their homepage but could not find the study itself. Maybe one of you all will have better luck that I did, so I include the link here.

This article at the website of the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas—and yes, I am perplexed as to why the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas publishes articles at all, let alone articles about immigration and assimilation—examines the question of whether or not Hispanic immigrants are assimilating:

quote:
Interestingly, despite lacking a high school diploma, low-skilled immigrants still outperform native dropouts in the labor market. Low-skilled male immigrants are more likely to work, as shown by their higher labor force participation rates, and less likely to be unemployed.

Because of this commitment to work and despite other disadvantages, immigrants assimilate and surpass income levels of like[i] natives after about 16 to 20 years in the United States.[emphasis added—[i]like natives refers to those of the same educational level. Since natives typically have a higher educational level than immigrants, this statistic should not be interpreted to mean that immigrants are surpassing natives at large.]

What about education?

quote:
Turning to the data, educational assimilation appears alive and well.
. . .
Hispanic immigrants do much worse in general, but also improve the most. In the first generation, about 44 percent lack a high school diploma, this rate improves to 15 and 16 percent, respectively, in the second and third generations.

So what of Huntington's claim that Latinos resist assimilation?

quote:
So what of the melting pot? It continues to simmer successfully, much as it did 100 years ago.
An excellent article that specifically addresses many of Huntington's charges can be found here. God, I hope some people have read this far and not glazed over from the sheer length of this post. Please, click on this link. It answers so much of the tripe in the original article, with hard statistics. One of the biggest flaws it points out with much of the evidence for "Latino Non-Advancement" is that it is based on correlations of census data which does not distinguish between different generations. Since Hispanic immigration is ongoing, such evidence incorrectly interprets the ongoing presence of Latinos who don't speak English, or who are poor, or who rely on social services, as symptomatic of a population that is failing to assimilate. When I looked through Huntington's data, I only saw differentiation between generations on one set of graphs, while most of the rest of the assertions were based on percents of the populations as a whole. Incidentally, that one graph related to levels of educational achievement, a point also discussed by this article:

quote:
At first glance, this would seem to reinforce a conclusion reached by economists Jeffrey Grogger and Stephen J. Trejo in a 2002 Public Policy Institute of California study that progress “appears to stall after the second generation” among Mexican Americans. However, Grogger and Trejo come to this conclusion using a statistical method different from that used by Smith. While Smith compares successive generations – matching up immigrant fathers with their native-born sons and grandsons – Grogger and Trejo compare all first-, second- and third-generation Mexican Americans within the same 1996-1999 time period. As a result, their study does not measure the inter-generational progress experienced by earlier groups of Mexican Americans. Moreover, as Smith points out in a 2001 study, the relative “stagnation” experienced by Latinos in closing their wage gap with native whites began in the 1980s and also occurred among African Americans, suggesting it is related to changes in the U.S. labor market not specific to any one ethnic group.
Contrast Huntington's claim:

quote:
Contemporary Mexican and, more broadly, Latin American immigration is without precedent in U.S. history.[/url]

with HispanicVista's research:

[quote]The striking similarity between warnings issued by contemporary restrictionists about Latin American immigrants and those issued by their counterparts during the previous wave of immigration from Europe suggest that these concerns are more a matter of historical perspective than of substance.

And here is a great example of this historical perspective:

quote:
For instance, Representative Tom Tancredo (R-6th/CO), chairman of the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus, declares that in the United States today the “vast majority of immigrants are low-skill, low-wage earners, and are a drain on this nation due to their level of poverty.” He asserts that “we are reducing the standard of living for millions of Americans. We are creating linguistic ghettos where millions of immigrants speak no English while replicating living standards such as those found in Haiti, Calcutta and poor nations.” Tancredo argues that “contrary to what has happened in the United States in the past in our history where immigrant families have come, labored hard, their children have then gone on to the next stage,” the children of Mexican immigrants “are dropping out of high school, never getting to college, and Hispanic Americans…are not moving ahead and achieving the same sorts of goals as immigrants of the past.” He warns that “Massive immigration in this country will determine not just what kind of Nation we will be, but whether we will be a Nation at all.”

In 1891, then-Representative Henry Cabot Lodge (R-MA) expressed similar worries about the wave of immigration that brought Representative Tancredo’s grandparents from Italy to the United States. He warned “that immigration to this country is increasing and…is making its greatest relative increase from races most alien to the body of the American people and from the lowest and most illiterate classes among those races.” He was speaking principally of the Italians, but also the Russians, Poles and Hungarians. He observed that these immigrants, “half of whom have no occupation and most of whom represent the rudest form of labor,” are “people whom it is very difficult to assimilate and do not promise well for the standard of civilization in the United States.” Lodge complained that many of them “have no money at all. They land in this country without a cent in their pockets.” Of the Italians in particular he objected that many “stay but a short time in the United States” in order to “then return to their native country with such money as they have been able to save here.” He warned that these sorts of immigrants, “who come to the United States, reduce the rate of wages by ruinous competition, and then take their savings out of the country, are not desirable. They are mere birds of passage. They form an element in the population which regards home as a foreign country, instead of that in which they live and earn money. They have no interest or stake in the country, and they never become American citizens.”

The passage of time has since proven Lodge wrong concerning the upward mobility of Italian Americans, as Representative Tancredo can attest. Many observers, when confronted by large numbers of first-generation immigrants who have not yet begun to climb the socioeconomic ladder and master English, fear that these newcomers and their descendants never will rise above their humble beginnings. But this fear owes much to the difference in perspective inherent in experiencing a wave of immigration while it is occurring as opposed to studying it a hundred years after the fact.

Honestly, Lodge sounds a lot like Huntington as well.

-o-

I think a key point—and once again, I find myself hoping against hope that somebody will read this far—is what Huntington regards as legitimate assimilation. For him, nothing less than the repudiation of Hispanic culture and the complete disappearance into American culture will do. For instance, look at his objections to the retention of the Spanish language by the children of immigrants:

quote:
Second, will the third generation follow the classic pattern with fluency in English and little or no knowledge of Spanish, or will it retain the second generation's fluency in both languages? Second-generation immigrants often look down on and reject their ancestral language and are embarrassed by their parents' inability to communicate in English. Presumably, whether second-generation Mexicans share this attitude will help shape the extent to which the third generation retains any knowledge of Spanish. If the second generation does not reject Spanish outright, the third generation is also likely to be bilingual, and fluency in both languages is likely to become institutionalized in the Mexican-American community. Spanish retention is also bolstered by the overwhelming majorities (between 66 percent and 85 percent) of Mexican immigrants and Hispanics who emphasize the need for their children to be fluent in Spanish. These attitudes contrast with those of other immigrant groups.
Again, note that the issue here is not that Latinos are not learning English, but that they value holding on to Spanish.

Here is an excellent article on the Latino drive to assimilate and yet hold on to their culture as well. Once again, I highly recommend it, and it is much shorter than the Huntington article (or this diatribe, I fear). This is from the introduction to the article:

quote:
Nearly nine out of ten Hispanics feel it is important for them to change so that they blend into American society. Nearly nine out of ten Latinos also feel it is essential for them to maintain their distinct culture, according to a study conducted by The Washington Post, the Henry J. Kaiser Foundation, and Harvard University. The Hispanic stance on assimilation is, therefore, a true paradox. The question is whether Latinos can simultaneously integrate into America and preserve their Hispanic identity.
That's just a tidbit, because it's hard not to quote the whole article. The gist of it is that assimilation and holding on to one's heritage are not mutually exclusive. And this is the crux of the issue. Huntington's fears are ill-defined, and so he can use all kinds of contradictory examples as evidence . . . evidence of what? Even his claim, that Hispanic immigration threatens . . . what, the American Way of Life? . . . is vague.

Here on this board you have at least two prominent examples of this "problem": Eddie and me. We're both American citizens. I believe we were both born here. We both vote. We both self-identify as Latinos or as Hispanics or what have you, and we both consider ourselves Americans at the same time. I speak Spanish, and I value that ability. We've both stayed geographically close to the countries that our parents immigrated from. According to Huntington, our assimilation is not complete enough, and we are a threat to all that you hold dear. I would suggest that our assimilation is enough to make us good citizens, and the differences that remain between us and Anglo-Americans only serve to add depth and flavor to the stew.

I would suggest that "multi-culturalism" is not a dirty word or phrase.

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lcarus
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And now I have stayed up until 4 am on a school night writing what is essentially a 4000-word unpaid article . . .

[Roll Eyes] @ myself

I'll be going to bed now . . . I have to get up in a couple of hours.

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Rappin' Ronnie Reagan
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[Hail] Icarus

You're awesome.

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Lalo
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Yeah, this is why Jose's currently in charge of the Latino Hatrack invasion.

I await your orders to subjugate gringos and destroy American culture, oh Queso Grande.

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Primal Curve
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Go W.A.S.P.!
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Storm Saxon
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No one does it better than Icarus. [Smile]

I have to confess that I find the issue of hispanic immigration and the coming minority status of wasps to be a far more interesting and, dare I say, vital topic than gay marriage. Even if the impact is a totally positive one, I think the impact of immigration on the future will be much more strongly felt than letting gay people marry and adopt. That is to say, I'm not sure that in one sense I disagree with the overall thrust of the article that hispanic immigration isn't going to have a large impact in some fashion on what it is to be American. I think what that impact will be is worthy of discussion.

While I understand and respect the fears of those who oppose gay marriage ('they're' going to make our kids gay), you basically find the same fears in this article (they're going to turn the country/my kids into Mexico/Mexicans). And I think that's the word that should be used and, I'd like to point out, Icarus did use--'xenophobia'. I think the article is more accurately a potrait of fear and concern about the future than bigotry and hate. With all due respect to Icarus and every other hispanic on this board, I think the fears of those who oppose, or are ambivalent about, immigration should be listened to and addressed rather than summarily dismissed as 'bigoted' as many people in this thread did (though they may very well be). No one has anything to contrast a point of view with until someone puts up an opposing view point complete with facts, as Mr. Icarus did.

I don't know if anyone besides Icarus got to page 12, but it was tremendously fascinating:

quote:

In the 1993 film Falling Down, Michael Douglas plays a white former defense company employee reacting to the humiliations that he sees imposed on him by a multicultural society. “From the get-go,” wrote David Gates in Newsweek, “the film pits Douglas—the picture of obsolescent rectitude with his white shirt, tie, specs, and astronaut haircut—against a rainbow coalition of Angelenos. It's a cartoon vision of the beleaguered white male in multicultural America.”

A plausible reaction to the demographic changes underway in the United States could be the rise of an anti-Hispanic, anti-black, and anti-immigrant movement composed largely of white, working- and middle-class males, protesting their job losses to immigrants and foreign countries, the perversion of their culture, and the displacement of their language. Such a movement can be labeled “white nativism.”

“Cultured, intelligent, and often possessing impressive degrees from some of America's premier colleges and universities, this new breed of white racial advocate is a far cry from the populist politicians and hooded Klansmen of the Old South,” writes Carol Swain in her 2002 book, The New White Nationalism in America. These new white nationalists do not advocate white racial supremacy but believe in racial self-preservation and affirm that culture is a product of race. They contend that the shifting U.S. demographics foretell the replacement of white culture by black or brown cultures that are intellectually and morally inferior.

Changes in the U.S. racial balance underlie these concerns. Non-Hispanic whites dropped from 75.6 percent of the population in 1990 to 69.1 percent in 2000. In California—as in Hawaii, New Mexico, and the District of Columbia—non-Hispanic whites are now a minority. Demographers predict that, by 2040, non-Hispanic whites could be a minority of all Americans. Moreover, for several decades, interest groups and government elites have promoted racial preferences and affirmative action, which favor blacks and nonwhite immigrants. Meanwhile, pro-globalization policies have shifted jobs outside the United States, aggravated income inequality, and promoted declining real wages for working-class Americans.

Actual and perceived losses in power and status by any social, ethnic, racial, or economic group almost always produce efforts to reverse those losses. In 1961, the population of Bosnia and Herzegovina was 43 percent Serb and 26 percent Muslim. In 1991, it was 31 percent Serb and 44 percent Muslim. The Serbs reacted with ethnic cleansing. In 1990, the population of California was 57 percent non-Hispanic white and 26 percent Hispanic. By 2040, it is predicted to be 31 percent non-Hispanic white and 48 percent Hispanic.

The chance that California whites will react like Bosnian Serbs is about zero. The chance that they will not react at all is also about zero. Indeed, they already have reacted by approving initiatives against benefits for illegal immigrants, affirmative action, and bilingual education, as well as by the movement of whites out of the state. As more Hispanics become citizens and politically active, white groups are likely to look for other ways of protecting themselves.

Industrialization in the late 19th century produced losses for U.S. farmers and led to agrarian protest groups, including the Populist movement, the Grange, the Nonpartisan League, and the American Farm Bureau Federation. Today, white nativists could well ask: If blacks and Hispanics organize and lobby for special privileges, why not whites? If the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and the National Council of La Raza are legitimate organizations, why not a national organization promoting white interests?

White nationalism is “the next logical stage for identity politics in America,” argues Swain, making the United States “increasingly at risk of large-scale racial conflict unprecedented in our nation's history.” The most powerful stimulus to such white nativism will be the cultural and linguistic threats whites see from the expanding power of Hispanics in U.S. society.

—S.P.H.

Almost like he's talking about himself, particularly in light of his last paragraph on page 8....

I fully believe that what SPH said above is going to come about in the future to some degree and I think the debate might as well start sooner rather than later. For now, I think the fact that white race politics hasn't taken off yet to any large degree says a lot about this country. (When Pat Buchanan ran on these very issues, if I recall correctly,he was only able to get, max, maybe 1 or 2% of the vote in 92, his best year.) As the article notes, politicians of both political parties are reaching out to the hispanic vote, rather than trying to use the fear stick.

[ March 08, 2004, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]

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lcarus
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I agree that the Latino immigration will have an impact . . . I just don't agree with Huntington's fear that it will be a destructive one, or at least that it will be a destructive one specifically because they're Hispanic. If the issue is whether or not the United States can withstand immigration in the numbers that we are currently seeing, then that is a different issue. But I detected a judgmental tone in Huntington's article . . . Hispanics are a drain because they are unsuccessful and take resources away from real Americans . . . Hispanics are a threat because they are very successful and they disenfranchise real Americans . . . Hispanics don't learn English . . . Hispanics do learn English, but they also teach their kids Spanish, and so they are disloyal . . . it seemed like there is no winning if you're Hispanic, and that Hispanics are unfairly/innacurately characterized as being unlike European waves of immigration, and thus a lower class of immigrants. And that's why the dreaded B-Word is accurate, I think, in the case of this article.

I think there are legitimate topics for debate in immigration, but I have objections to Huntington's mischaracterizations and his alarmist language.

[ March 08, 2004, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: lcarus ]

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Storm Saxon
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To some degree, I agree with what you are saying about the tone of his article. Because I do not identify as a hispanic, I am sure the negativity and bias comes across much more strongly for you than it did for me. Please believe that I did not post this article because I agree with the tone or because I thought he was objective, but because I hoped it might be 'interesting' to consider on this forum. I probably should read through several articles on a particular topic before I post any here, but I have to confess that I kind of post them as I find them. [Smile]

With matters of immigration, I honestly don't know if a middle ground is possible. It seems like you have people and authors that are either totally for it or totally against it.

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Sopwith
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Personally, I applaud the Hispanic immigrants we've had in the US in recent decades. Come to think of it, since the US was formed.

As a group, they have started with little when they arrived except for a desire to live and succeed at the American dream.

From the early days of the vaqueros working as cowboys on American ranches, to those streaming across the borders now to perform hard, physical labor, there has always been a strong belief that their success is born on the sweat of their brows and their stick-to-it-iveness.

Now, the growth in Hispanic-owned small businesses is booming, most second generation immigrants work hard at not just English but all areas of education, and they are a striving and positive group on our society.

As an immigrant group, they have been a success; as Americans they have worked to be mainstreamed not by protesting in the streets, but by working, striving and thriving. More power to them, I say.

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Storm Saxon
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So, you would support having a totally open border if there were someway we could make sure that no terrorists got in?
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BannaOj
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I did read all 12 pages eventually. (Warning long rambly anecdotal impressions following.)

While I am female, I grew up the only white kid in a mostly Hispanic neighborhood in California. I found out how much I self-identify with the culture in college. But my experience growing up, was pretty non-traumatic. Yes there was the occasional gang violence or riot in the local high school (which I didn't attend because I was homeschooled), but on the swim team and at the local community college, the color of one's skin really didn't matter.

On the swim team we had hispanic, black, white and asian kids, with black being the least represented, and probably a toss up between the rest, maybe either asian or hispanic the most. I never felt oppressed by any of those whose skin color wasn't my own. I actually wished I was like them, the most obvious reason being because they never got sunburned as bad as I did due to the melatonin they had. One of my best friends Ricardo Hernandez, was a former gang member. He cleaned up his life, and is now a college graduate.

I really think all these political scientist types should actually look at how the youngest generations are getting along in schools etc in places like Southern CA. Except for the lowest economic brackets and the true ghettos where the worst gang violence happens, everybody is getting along pretty well IMO. I think there is a lot of mutual respect that is getting overlooked.

Things seem to be a lot more evenly dispersed with the races out in CA, compared to here in Chicago though. Chicago is much more non-homogenous.

Last week here at our company we had a racial incident that rocked the people who have been here to their core. Nothing like it has happened in 50 years. An older middle aged hispanic cafeteria cashier, Ishmael, who everyone liked and was a fixture, asked a young black guy to open up his styrofoam clamshell so he could see what food was inside. He asks everyone to do this. There is even a sign posted, saying to have your clamshell open when you get to the cashier.

Anyway the black guy, who apparently had a reputation for a quick temper, somehow took offense, words escalated and the black guy swung and hit Ishmael, at which point Ishmael, pulled a pair of box cutters. I don't blame him for doing so, but I wish he hadn't because that caused him to get fired too. [Frown] This company does have a lot of old white men running it, and you would think that most of the minorities would band together rather than having tension between them that makes it worse. Though there are tons of hispanic and black workers here that regularly interact and genuinely like each other.

One of the things that I was thinking about in regards to the deadbeat dads and child support in Mexico etc. We should make it EASIER for families to immigrate. Families are supposedly the most stable building blocks on society, and parents are more motivated to work hard for their children. The children while being a little bit of a drain on the educational system will pay back their education in triplicate in their economic conributions.

AJ

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Storm Saxon
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I wonder if we aren't enabling, in the case of Mexico, a corrupt and inefficient government? How is immigration effecting Mexico? Are we 'stealing' their best and their brightest? Shouldn't the priority be on making Mexico self sufficient and prosperous so that people and families don't have to immigrate to be able to live a comfortable life?
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BannaOj
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I don't know Storm if we are actually stealing their best and brightest. It seems as if the educated upper classes for the most part are happy to stay in Mexico, because their standard of living is actually higher for the same incomes, they can afford even more domestic workers, the good doctors, and go to all the "nice" places.

AJ

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