A man walks into a store and buys a twinkie. On the way to his register he steals a magazine, stuffs it down his pants. He goes home and feels sorry. He decides to return, pay for the magazine, and accept any jail time he must pay.
Suddenly his older brother steps in and and offers to do the jail time.
What kinda *explicitive* would let his/her older brother do that? Why not accept all responisbility for your own actions and suffer the consequences?
Is this something that actually happened? I'd be skeptical of whomever told you about it, since I can't imagine a jail sentence for stealing a magazine.
How old were these siblings?
What is your relationship to this? (a story you heard, the topic of a school paper you are writing, etc)
posted
Thank you for the reminder, and I apologize for the cursing. I have since edited my original post.
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posted
I do too. Since the atonement is central to Christianity, it behooves me to understand it better. But no matter how much I appreciate the Savior, I keep wondering why I can't pay for my own sins.
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We all sin. By sinning we separate ourselves from God (we make ourselves "unclean" and nothing that is unclean can be with God). Nothing we can/could ever do can get us "clean" again - to the point where we *deserve* to be back in God's presence.
Now, I don't completely understand why this next part is the case, but I believe it to be so: God had known that we would need a Savior - someone to save us by doing for us that which we could not do ourselves - so He sent His most precious Son, Jesus, to earth to be our Savior. By some miraculous means, Jesus was able to suffer every ache and pain that every human being will every suffer. He suffered all the anguish caused of every sin that ever had been or ever would be committed. Somehow, he was able to "pay the price" of all our sins and, if we accept Him as our Savior (and do what he asks of us in return for his paying our debt), His sacrifice makes us "clean" again. Now, like I said up above, I don't know why or how this works. But, it is my sincere belief and hope that it is the case. I have done many things in my life that I am not proud of - things that were wrong, things that were sins in the eyes of God. I have felt like those things were "stains" on my soul, as it were. Regardless of what I did, how sorry I was, never repeating them again, etc. they still happened. I knew they happened and God knew they happened. But, I have faith that, when I have done all I can do to forsake my sins, Jesus' sacrifice can somehow clean my soul of that stain so that God and I can forget it was ever there. But it does make me ashamed and causes me pain to know that things that I have done and things that I continue to do caused my older brother to suffer beyong that which I can imagine. I cannot understand how He could do what He did. I cannot understand the amount of love He must have had (and still has) to do something like that.
posted
I don't mean to derail your thread, Alexa, but I found this fascinating:
quote:Some people say that adam had to choose between 2 evils..disobey God and not have kids, or disobey God and get kicked out of the garden.
I don't see it that way. I think God often gives us 2 contrary commandments to see how we will choose.
Ie. Garden of Eden Ie. When Jesus commands his disciples to leave their families to join him (otherwise they are not worthy). That seems at odds with believing in Jesus to stay with your family.
We are forced to choose, I think, so we can learn about consequences and what we believe. It is not a choice betweeen two evils, but two goods.
A leader MUST deal with limited resources and unlimited demand, the process of making choices shapes character. Pleasing everyone is not the criteria of a moral person in my mind. [emphasis added]
I'd never considered this interpretation, and I wondered if the theme of personal responsibility you raise in this thread forms the basis for how you view the world.
Is this why you find external atonement troubling (that is, is it because you see it as diminishing what is of central value to a a human life)?
I must say I am flattered. To have someone think about your posts, well, it makes me feel good. But you go one step further and made a correct analysis of the foundation of my world view.
As a mormon, I am very grateful for the savior. MY gratitude is rooted in Him subjecting himself to understand my sins. I believe suffering can lead to compassion and understanding. In fact, the highest form of compassion has always been based in empathy. For me anyways.
So here I am weeping in the Passion of the Christ, and yet, I have never felt I remorse for my sins. By remorse, I mean the feeling of driving the nails in the Messiah's hands or feeling like I am offending God.
I have felt remorse and made changes in my life, but besides the emotional support of the Christ, I don't feel guilty.
I take responsibility and accept my consequences. If I have to feel the pain of my consequences that the D&C talks about (blood and pores), well, I welcome that moment to purify myself.
That being said, I don't understand the Atonement at it's core level--having someone else vicariously pay for my actions. It feels mean spirited to me.
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posted
I think part of the problem with regards to understanding the Atonement is that we can only speak of it in imperfect metaphors. The atonement is not merely "Jesus being punished for our sins." It stems from the Incarnation, which is God becoming human so as to be able to serve as a mediator to make us one with God again.
There are many different theories as to the exact mechanism of the Atonement, even within individual denominations. Here's a link that explains several Catholic views on the subject.
quote:It was by this inward sacrifice of obedience unto death, by this perfect love with which He laid down his life for His friends, that Christ paid the debt to justice, and taught us by His example, and drew all things to Himself; it was by this that He wrought our Atonement and Reconciliation with God, "making peace through the blood of His Cross".
This touches on most of the important aspects of the atonement, including obedience, sacrifice, love, debt, and justice.
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