posted
I think about this every time I read the Judaism thread, or we fight over Gay rights or we speak of some minority.
There are three levels of rules in our world.
There are the the legal laws which our government decrees. They are many. They are well written. There are specialists who guide us through their uses, and specialists who police our use of them. There are even specialists who create more laws as they are thought to be needed. These must be upheld for fear of paying great physical prices. Breaking these laws is a common everyday occurance (speeding, sliding though that stop light, fudging on those tax returns). ONly if caught and prosecuted is there any chance of punishment, and then forgiveness is almost guaranteed after the punishment is over.
There are the Religious laws which our churches decree. Their quantity depends on which religion you belong too. Most often they are written down in uncompromising holy texts. There are specialists who guide us through their uses. Only God polices them. Only God or his appointed representatives can create more laws. These must be upheld for fear of paying great Eternal prices. If these laws are broken, great are the rituals that one must go through to gain forgiveness.
There are the cultural laws which our varying society decrees. Their quantity is many. Few are written down, but they are spread by word of mouth. There are many who claim to be specialists who try to guide us through them. Their authority is bestowed on them by themselves. THere are many willing to police our actions in regards to these laws--almost everyone. Changing these laws is a constant thing, done by changes in society and culture. Yet, some of these laws are the most ingrained, most difficult to change. Fighting or keeping up with those changes is the most common reason such laws are broken. These unwritten laws must be upheld for fear of paying a great social price. If broken, there is no forgiveness.
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posted
Cutural laws are rules that we live by that are very strong.
Racism is a set of cultural laws. Sure, in many cases they were backed with governmental laws, but the strength of Ms. Parks for refusing to move to the back of the bus was not only her willingness to go to jail, but her willingness to break convention and the rules that were lived by.
The outrage many people felt about her refusal was not because she broke a legal statute. It was because she broke a cultural taboo.
Taboo--that is the world I was looking for. It is breaking a cultural taboo that results in no forgiveness being offered.
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posted
But our cultural taboos are continually changing. This change suggests to me that there is forgiveness.
I believe the heart of forgiveness is a willingness to change and admit fault (In a Christian view this is achieved by turning our hearts to God, but change is still necesary. Why do you think breaking cultural taboos is unforgivable?
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posted
People who break laws are not usually "forgiven", even after they have finished their sentence, with the occasional exception of a person who is both wealthy and lucky.
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posted
If the taboo is wrong, like in the Ms. Parks incident, then society changes (hopefully in America anyway) and the offender is put on a pedestal.
If the taboo is right, well, I wonder if it is ever right...I'll think about that. If it is right, there are usually "laws" that enforce them--like pedophilia.
Let's take homosexuality, that is a taboo, but I find it hard to believe that homosexuals are not forgiven. Again, I am not sure what forgiving a homosexual entails. I am not sure how that unforgiveness is expressed.
I don't want this to go into homosexuality, I am just still uncertain about the unforgiveness thing. And where do you want to go with these three types of laws? Is there a statement or direction you want to go to, or is the point just to remind us that there are societal laws, religious laws, and cultural taboos?
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posted
Xap, good point. That would be the 4th set of laws.
What is fun to figure out is how each set of these laws influences the other. Does my religion influence my personal laws, or does my personal codes influence which religion I will follow and how I will follow it. Does my religious beliefs influence goverment laws, or does my cultural taboos have more influence.
Cultural laws change, but there is no forgiveness until they do. Then the villian becomes the hero. Still, breaking a tradition, which is one form of cultural (and personal) law is often more difficult, and more guilt ridden, then breaking a holy vow. Divorce your spouce and your family still loves you. Miss a thanksgiving dinner and they will disown you.
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posted
I disagree that all the legal laws are well written.
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Who decides that a taboo is wrong? You can decide that it is, but that doesn't stop the enforcement of it. Enforcement of a taboo is done by social pressure, so unless everyone decides that it wrong at the same time, people will still be ostracized for breaking it. The claim that legal backing for a taboo makes it right is incorrect as well. Your own statements claim that different rules for different races was an incorrect taboo, however that was a law at one point. Speaking of taboos in terms of right and wrong doesn't make much sense. Your claim about pedophilia being right, is just your opinion (admitedly one most people share), the opinions of NAMBLA's members would disagree with your own. Generally taboos are rules about behavior, the dictates for proper behavior change all the time, and thus so do the taboos. So in terms of right and wrong, all of today's taboos are right, and all of yesterday's and tomorrow's are wrong.
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posted
Seems to me it is culturally taboo to say that you think homosexuality is a sin. It is far more forgivable to say that you think pre-marital sex is a sin. But say that you think homosexuality is, and you get attacked. You don't even have to be talking about gay marriage or legislation or anything like that. Just stating your religious belief. I really think it is insane the emotional response that comes to that statement.
Granted, there are plenty of people out there who are oppressive in their anti-homosexual feelings, but those of us who are not get lynched without a fair trial. Not that that happens here at Hatrack (usually) I am more speaking of like in a group of college or high school students. People here at Hatrack are much more reasonable and respectful.
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posted
I think there's a fair amount of regionalism in the determination of cultural taboos. Not just the obvious stuff, but even what the nature of PC-thought police stuff is.
In the Bible-belt South, it is entirely acceptable to go around calling other people's behavior "a sin" and openly discriminating against gays. You might get called on it every once in a while, but people are not pilloried in the press for simply stating what their religious beliefs are, and promoting programs that actively bar homosexuals from the same rights and privileges as are enjoyed by heterosexuals.
Whereas in other parts of the country you can't make a peep about a view that's even slightly negative about homosexuality.
People are also just more polite in general in the South so maybe not dogpiling on someone who is essentially being biased has less to do with agreement and more to do with gentility. I'm not sure anymore.
But unless someone is just outright violent against gays here, they can pretty much say whatever they darn well please. Especially if they mention God a few times while they're at it.
Sorry, but that's just the truth as I see it.
I had a friend once who basically hung around gay men. She liked them. But one day she said some blanket statement like she was tire of all the drama or something. It was like she'd killed the school mascot. That was NYC. Oddly enough, her gay friends understood exactly what she meant. It was all the other folks who didn't like it.
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posted
That's cool, Bob. I am actually thinking of events that happened when I was HS and college age in Texas (considered part of the "Bible belt"). Perhaps there are enough people there that are openly hostile to gays that anyone who says "boo" gets accused of that same behavior. People there got amazingly passionate about it.
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posted
See, I think it's weird for very old (usually rich) people to marry very young people. I'm talking more than 40 years spread. Sure it's legal, but I can't help but question the motives of both parties.
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