posted
I have a friend from church come clean my house every other week. She and her husband have been having serious problems, and he moved out some months ago. She has been hurting for money. To support her and help myself, when she started cleaning houses, I signed up.
She brings her 4 year old son when she cleans. I'm okay with this, even though he's a bit wild. She tries to keep him in line while cleaning, but there are times when he crosses my BS line, and I will say something to him directly. I am *always* very polite about it, usually so quiet it's near a whisper. But I'm also firm about it, so if he's jumping on the couch, I smile and say, oh, that's too bad, but people who jump on the couch get to sit on the floor. And he's really pretty good about listening to me. (I work from home, so I'm usually here when they are here.)
So today, one of our exercise balls was out from my kids playing with it last night. That was an instant mischief magnet, and the boy spent most of the first couple of hours here playing with it. His mom cautioned him at least a dozen times about not bouncing it, until I'd had enough, and took it away. I was nice about it -- I took it away and leaned down into his face, smiled, then said "No more ball today. Maybe next time." Oh boy was his mom mad at me! She could hardly speak to me.
Now, I come from a family of non-confrontation. You don't tell someone you have a problem with them -- you fester about it and never talk to them directly. You show all your disapproval and anger in more indirect ways. It has taken almost 4 years of marriage to an almost embarrassingly direct man to realize that perhaps the way I grew up with isn't always the best way to handle things. So this time, full of the knowledge that my friend was ticked at me and me not wanting it to just stand, I framed what I wanted to say, then went and talked to her while she was in a different room, where her son wouldn't overhear.
I don't think I have any adrenalin left. Having learned that people generally listen better when they have been listened to, I asked if what I had done bothered her. Of course, her answer was YES, and then she went on to tell me exactly why it did. Now, in her shoes, what I did would have bothered me too, but I have a rule for myself that I don't defend my kids unless they really need it, and not only had her kid not been hurt by me, he acted almost like he expected it. She asked me how I would feel in her shoes. So I told her, and said that in my house, when I've had enough of something, I take care of it. Politely, kindly, but definitively. My kids don't always get the 'politely, kindly' part, but I do not fail to keep my manners when I'm addressing other people's kids in my house. I told her this and said that if she ever caught me being rude to her children, I would like it if she told me. She tried to nail me down on actual rules about the ball, but I long since figured out with my own kids, that explicit rules are a good way to make your children into lawyers. I like lawyers, but I don't want any in my house, so the real rule is that we don't make Mom unhappy. (My rule for myself is that we don't make Dad unhappy, which keeps me from becoming a total despot ). My friend caught that pretty quickly in the confrontation, and said, "So basically, it's all about how you feel, right?" And because I know that's how I run my house, full of the belief that as long as I'm fair about it, it works pretty well, I didn't hesitate to tell her yes. I then told her that she was welcome to leave her son somewhere else when she cleans, but that she's also still welcome to bring him, as long as she understands that there will be times that I may correct him and that I will not be discussing it with her before I do it. It being my house, I get to do those sorts of things.
So now I'm shaking with adrenalin from a confrontation I didn't want to have, and which ultimately would and still could result in the ending of a friendship. But I am pretty sure I did the right thing.
Agree or disagree? How do YOU deal with other people's kids? And have you ever had a constructive confrontation? How did it go?
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Jeniwren, you handled that as well as could be expected. If my kid was jumping on your couch, I would have gotten him to stop myself. That's really what should have happened.
Really, I don't believe you crossed any lines. Your friend just needs to calm down an see it a little more objectively.
The boy, however, is going through hell right now, from the description of the story. I don't think that Mom is doing any better, and is likely on edge.
Bad situation--but you handled it well.
Posts: 2506 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
While allowances might be made for her stress levels, I can't see where you weren't completely polite at every step. You weren't taking away his toys, after all, you were removing something of yours, and you did it politely and with respect.
Frankly, I think that going up to her and asking her to do something about her son would have come off as more rude, and probably would have received the same reaction.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
You did exactly the right thing. I wish I could be that calm and direct.
I would have told her that I couldn't afford her services anymore just so I could avoid the whole thing. So she wouldn't get the money, and I wouldn't get the extra help. Everyone loses.
You handled it well. Posts: 524 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Wow. I'm trying to imagine getting upset about this and failing miserably. I'm not sure I'm cut out to be a parent, since it would never occur to me NOT to take the ball away, or to be upset about someone taking the ball away.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Erik, their family is going through hell right now. It has been months of hell, and I have tried to support them however I can. She talks about it a lot while she's here. She talks about it a lot at church. She talks about it a lot. I empathize...I've been there. My first husband is a lot like her husband. It's tough.
Worse, her two boys have the hell of both parents being in such extreme pain that it slops over on both of them. It would help if the parents would stop talking to everyone under the sun about it, but I remember how totally self focussed I was in the midst of my divorce. It's hard to get out of yourself long enough to realize that talking about it in earshot of your kids is like hitting them with rocks. And that in that kind of pain, you don't want to discipline your kids, because you don't want to make *another* person you love so much unhappy. You do that until they are so out of control you want to sell them. Cheap. I'm pretty sure that's why she didn't take the ball away from him in the first place.
I think I get where they're at. My BS meter with her boys is set to High. I think what got me today was that she kept talking and talking and talking to him about the ball, that I was tired of hearing about it. I can only imagine he was too. His response wasn't even a pout. He just shrugged and went on to something else. Something else that was much quieter.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
It sounds to me like you did the right thing.
It can be difficult trying to deal with other people's children. Every other week for about 1-1.5 hours I have anywhere from 6-10 8-9 year-old girls in my house from church. I try to come up with activities that can be fun for them but also an opportunity for them to learn new things, develop friendships and their social skills. Having that many girls (all with differing personality and coming from different homes) in one place at once can sometimes be difficult, especially if I am the only adult presiding over the controlled chaos. Although I do not yet have children of my own, I have had a lot of experience dealing with other people's children. It often takes being firm (when I say "no", I mean "no" - and for everyone, I'm not just being mean). I try my best to be impartial and kind so that they can have greater respect for me. Then again, I have absolutely no problem with taking my things away from them when I don't want them using/playing with them. Posts: 5879 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
jeniwren, I think you did just the right thing. And I also think that you saw the true reason why she's was angry. It's more because of what's happening right now to her that because of what you did. The best way in this case is to have a talk with the other person, a calm one, and try to show that person that what you did was for her too. Which you did. So I wouldn't worry about it. Even if this puts a temporary end to your friendship with her, it's going to be a decision taken in a moment of crisis to which she'll probably give a second thought later.
((((jeniwren)))) ((((your friend and her family)))) I hope it all ends soon, so that the kids won't suffer that much anymore.
Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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I can't think of a better way to have handled the situation. Once she reflects on it, your friend might actually be glad you took the situation in hand since she wouldn't and, based on what you said about divorce, maybe felt like she couldn't.
I was the same way about confrontations. I would rather just dwell on it and let it fester. Luckily, I got a wife, like your husband, who is pretty direct and doesn't let me do that.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I think you did spectacularly well. My efforts are directed at being as assertive and simultaneously fair and kind as you were.
I think it tells a lot that you were able to correctly, without guilt or hesitation, state that it was *precisely* about your feelings here. You might gently remind her at some point that she is likely to keep more customers if she concerns herself with making sure they feel attended to, and that includes feeling good about having her and her kids in their house.
Posts: 2112 | Registered: Sep 1999
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You are an awesome Mom! Your kids are lucky to have you.
That boy is lucky to have someone to follow through with rules for him.
Way to go confonting your friend when it was difficult and you didn't have to.
That was such an impressive story to me on so many levels I can't wait to go home from work and see how good I can be with my hooligans. Posts: 995 | Registered: May 2003
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quote:You might gently remind her at some point that she is likely to keep more customers if she concerns herself with making sure they feel attended to, and that includes feeling good about having her and her kids in their house.
For tips, watch the shopping scene in Pretty Woman.
--o--
I disagree with that. I think you were fine here, but I'd prefer laying out the ground rules before. Don't passive-aggressively suggest some brown-nosing. I think the above action would be very demeaning.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Any correction can be demeaning if done improperly. I was not being snide when I said "gently".
I suggested this for the woman's good, not Jeni's. If she continues to look upon her customers as a free therapy/support group as she seems to be treating Jeni, she's likely to lose many of them. Businesses exist to support customers, not the other way around. Losing sight of that (and in Jeni's specific case, this woman has lost sight of that) is a sure fire way to wreck a business. Ask Netscape.
Posts: 2112 | Registered: Sep 1999
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It all depends on the setting. If the woman asks, that would be fine. Telling her in the middle of the matter concerning her son, unsolicited, would be ... a reminder of who has the power.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Now, I will add that this poor gal, just separating from her husband, raising her kid while trying to work, and having very little money -- she was probably very stressed.
And her blow up of anger probably really had very little to do with you, and everything to do with feeling overwhelmed (I've been there, done that).
She will probably regret it later and feel very bad about it.
That is not to excuse what she did -- but maybe you shouldn't take it too personally.
posted
Methinks farmgirl has some good points here.
As does Kat-- I was assuming the issue with her child was over. This might be a poor assumption. By all means, don't provide correction in the midst of a heated discussion. I meant it in the sense of friendly advice which you might give her in an appropriate time and setting.
I should also note, before Kat does , that you, jeniwren, are not, in any way, responsible for teaching her this particular lesson.
Posts: 2112 | Registered: Sep 1999
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Jeni, that's what I thought. (I know the kid's pain from personal experience, and have always guessed that what you related about the parents is true as well) You handled it well.
My point is that even though they are going through this, and you have a wonderful heart for helping them, they still need to follow your rules while in your house. Don't beat yourself up!
posted
You did just fine, jeni - it sounds like you practiced courtesy, tact and diplomacy - and insisted on some respect for your boundaries. There's not a thing wrong with that - and a lot of good.
Another thought - nothing to act on, just muse over - I had (emphasis on HAD) a friend in a similar situation. I hired her to houseclean and her two children (understandable) were acting out the pain of the family problem. We mostly made it though that to the next crisis - and suddenly I found her and her two kids living with me and my son in my 2-bedroom duplex for over a month. I did not want them homeless and on the streets - but I also regret the friendship that has just trickled away into an every few months hour long visit. Just something to think about as you clearly state your boundaries -
posted
jeni, you handled the situation perfectly. You should be really proud of yourself.
quote:explicit rules are a good way to make your children into lawyers
This is so true! We've made our rules very, very general in my program. We say, "Keep your hands to yourself," instead of "No hitting." As soon as you tell children that hitting is not allowed, they will kick, punch, poke, and bite.
posted
Mrs M, I was hoping you'd drop your thoughts in here. Thank you! That really means a lot.
Whew, Shan! Fortunately there isn't any more room in my house to take someone else in. My mother is the long time resident of our guest room, and we actually cut our family room in half by adding a wall, so my daughter could have her own room. But I take your point. Before we married, my husband had every sort of bachelor-in-financial-distress roommate you can imagine. I wouldn't be able to take that with kids attached too. You're quite a woman!
TAK, I'm going to have to talk with her about this stuff further. After talking with my mom (who lives with us) and my husband about it, there were some other things I didn't know about that came to light. I'm out of town one week out of every three, and my friend comes to clean sometimes while I'm gone. She's been letting her kids (she brought her 1st grader with her the last time I was out of town) play on the computer -- one of the few explicit no-no's. I was very clear about that the first time she came. The computer is off limits. She's helped herself to things in the kitchen. Etc. I don't mind sharing, and would be more than happy to feed a hungry child, but I want to be asked, not presumed upon.
Thanks everyone for the encouragement...I really needed it. Yesterday was just awful. I had woken with the start of a migraine anyway, then the confrontation...it made for a very long day. But it wasn't without reward. I got to try Zomig for the first time and discovered that it works great on migraines. They usually last three to four days, and by 7pm or so last night, it was gone.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I can understand why she needs to bring her son with her, but she should be responsible for providing some way for him to be entertained. She shouldn't be coming over expecting to use your things for her son's amusement.
I was curious if you're OK with the job she's doing. When Kristine was still working, we decided to get a housekeeper so we could have a little more free time. I'm still trying to figure out how I was convinced that a housekeeper was a better option than having someone mow the yard.
Anyway, one of our neighbors has her own housecleaning business, but K didn't want to hire her because she's very picky. If the neighbor didn't clean as well as K thought she should, she didn't want to have to be in the awkward position of having to fire the neighbor.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Boon
unregistered
posted
I am not the only adult my children come into contact with. Nor am I with them 24 hours a day. What if they'd learned, as preschoolers, that they didn't have to listen to other adults because Mom would get mad and chew the other adult out?
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I don't envy you that conversation, jeniwren. But yes, you are going to need to talk and I think that goes beyond treating someone like a client and into treating someone like a friend-- having respect for their desires. You *do* seem to be the right person for the job as you have done brilliantly so far, IMO.
Keep on owning your feelings and desires and make things as clear as you can and you'll be fine and hopefully she will recognize the respect you have for yourself and her.
Posts: 2112 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
Well I don't know about the rest of you, but I think that if you're going to let a kid into your house it's the hight of insensitivity not to give him a butterknife and let him crack open your computer and mess with the insides. Next time that kid comes over, you should show him how to put your CDs in the microwave. Anything less would be inhospitable. Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
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Zan, that's going to be part of the conversation. I'm going to let her know that from here on out, I expect her to bring things to keep her son occupied. He usually plays with my daughter's things, which truly doesn't bother me, especially since they all get put away when they leave. Yesterday, though, he was playing with my son's Gameboy in his room when I got home from dropping my kids off. It didn't bother me at the time, but the more I have thought about it, the more I'd prefer it didn't happen again -- after all, it's not even my Gameboy to offer. It's my son's. Worse, if the boy made a mess in my son's room, my son would have to clean it up, since I don't let my friend clean Christian's room.
As for standards of cleaning, I only have her do stuff I hate to do. Like cleaning the bathrooms, and mopping the floors. She did a fantastic job cleaning my oven (something I more than hate doing). My standards on the bathrooms are higher than hers, but she really does a great job on pretty much everything else.
Boon, that occurred to me too. It's not much of a wonder that her boys know exactly how to play her.
Speed, your post made me laugh out loud. I'm such a bad employer.
edit: Thank you TAK. Your encouragement really means a lot. I am SO not wanting to have this conversation. I'm thinking about writing it instead and emailing it to her, so she has a chance to think about it before responsing. She does pretty well with that and frequently sends me email.
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). My friend caught that pretty quickly in the confrontation, and said, "So basically, it's all about how you feel, right?" And because I know that's how I run my house, full of the belief that as long as I'm fair about it, it works pretty well, I didn't hesitate to tell her yes. I then told her that she was welcome to leave her son somewhere else when she cleans, but that she's also still welcome to bring him, as long as she understands that there will be times that I may correct him and that I will not be discussing it with her before I do it. It being my house, I get to do those sorts of things.
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, that you, jeniwren, are not, in any way, responsible for teaching her this particular lesson.
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