posted
Ok, can someone give me a working definition to start from. On the living together thread, mph speculated on not following a course of action in order to avoid the appearance of evil. I thought that I understood, but with AJ's post, the reply I was going to make didn't make any sense.
Before I stick my foot in my mouth, what does the phrase actually mean? (besides not looking at pictures of celia)
Better to start a new thread for my own insanity than continue on that one.
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posted
1 Thessalonians 5:22 reads: "Abstain from all appearance of evil."
Most people use this phrase, or a slight variation thereof, to mean that you should avoid situations that look evil, even if they technically aren't. There are a few reasons, and they are legitimate, but they have practically nothing to do with the Bible verse. For example, you can damage your reputation or cause someone else to think that doing evil isn't so bad, if even you are doing it. Or, you can become complacent so that, when a situation comes up where you really are faced with evil, you have lost the impulse to avoid it. There are others as well.
However, the Bible verse simply means either "avoid evil whenever it appears" or "avoid every kind of evil." (the footnote in my Bible says that the Greek word translated as "appearance" actually means "kind.")
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posted
Isn't avoiding the appearance of evil deceptive? Isn't Satan the father of lies? It seems like a very superficial statement to me.
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posted
Well, I don't have any scriptural nor doctrinal quotes to back up my feelings. But here's how I feel:
I feel that I have a certain responsibility as a member of my Church and bearer of the Priesthood. In a very real, but very limited sense, I have been called to be a representitive of Christ. Part of that responsibility is to not sully His name, nor the name of His church. So I will try to avoid doing things that will do that.
posted
Alexa -- avoiding the appearance of evil is only deceptive if you aren't also avoiding the actual evil. As I see it, if I had to choose between *doing* evil and *appearing* to do evil, I'd choose to not do evil. At least, I hope I would.
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posted
Like I said, the principle people are referring to when they use the phrase is a good one, but the use of that particular scripture to support it is misplaced.
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posted
Well, I was afraid of that. Lots of posts while I was typing, and now I won't make a lot of sense. Oh well.
I'm going to pull an example out of the Bible to illustrate what I think of that phrase. Paul, IIRC, says that there really isn't anything actually outright sinful about sitting down to eat meat that has been sacrificed to idols when you know quite well that the idol-god does not exist. BUT Christians should avoid it anyway, for the benefit of the weakest of their community who might be led astray by seeing that particular activity and making wrong conclusions from it.
I don't know if that's a very good example. But I think of it as avoiding doing something innocent which might look bad to people who could draw wrong conclusions and so be weakened. For a Mormon, that might be spending a heck of a lot of time in a bar. (Or, as one buddy of ours thinks, buying caffeine-free Dr. Pepper. I think he's a little over-zealous, myself--but then I have a DP weakness. )
AJ's comment about close opposite-sex friendships is actually a pretty good one (though she doesn't like it); while I have no objection to friendliness in a general, casual, group-friendship way, I do think it's a bad idea for two married people (man and woman married to other people) to be spending time alone together, confiding in each other things which should probably be better said to their spouses. Even if it's completely Platonic, not only does it look bad to other people and give rise to unhappy thoughts and suspicions, it really is a great formula for the beginnings of infidelity. Couples friendship = good idea, friendship of people who ought to be putting that energy into their marraiges = bad idea.
It's not always easy to define, and different people have different thoughts on it.
mr_porteiro_head, Can you elaborate on that with application to living with someone you aren't married to but also aren't having sex with?
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posted
Dangermom, you're right. See, Paul did actually teach this principle, and in some depth. One of the best examples is, as you point out, when he wrote about the meat offered to idols.
Maybe this is why people get confused, and assume that the verse from Thessalonians is talking about the same thing.
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quote:friendship of people who ought to be putting that energy into their marraiges = bad idea
But that's exactly the thing. It's not the energy you can put into your marriage. If your spouse isn't interested in discussing books, are you supposed to give it up because the person you like to discuss them with is of opposite sex?
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posted
I have two female friends that were friends before I got married. Even from before I met my wife. I still have lunch with both of them every couple of weeks. I was even an usher in one of their weddings just a few weeks ago not because I was friends with the groom, but because I was friends with the bride.
My wife has become friends with both of them. She has no problem with my having lunch with either of them. Both of them work close to my office, but my home isn't. It would make no sense for my wife to drive all the way down here to "chaperone" us.
My marriage is fine and is not threatened in the least by my having female friends. If anything, sometimes it helps to let me know when I'm doing, or about to do, something stupid.
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posted
*looks at Google ad at the bottom of page -- for smilies -- and s*
As far as the actual topic goes, I think that perhaps there are really two issues here. First, the whole "appearance of evil" thing. While I don't make all my choices with the concern that others may learn the wrong lessons from my actions paramount, it is a concern. And I know that some people think that they need not worry about whether their example will affect others -- but I disagree. I was aware of this concern before I had kids; but with kids, it has become something I think about a lot.
You can't tell kids, "Do as I say and not as I do" and expect it to work real well. (I know -- I keep trying! ) So I try to be very careful that my kids don't get the wrong impression about things that I do that are not wrong because of circumstances (like AJ's lying to hide Jews example in the other thread).
But that's not why I think that living together without being intimate is problematic. That has more to do with a line I've heard: Living together and sleeping together aren't the same thing, but either one tends to lead to the other. Before someone flames me, of COURSE it's a gross overgeneralization. There are couples who live together and are not sleeping together -- of this I have no doubt.
Actually, I wonder how healthy that is, anyway. If one has chosen to wait for marriage, for example, wouldn't it make more sense to avoid temptation? Not to make it a many-times-a-day thing, especially since resistance would tend to erode? Seems like that would put an awful lot of strain on the relationship. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Celia -- Hmm, where to begin. As I think more about it, there are two reasons why I wouldn't do it -- avoiding evil and avoiding the appearance of evil.
First of all, the avoidance of evil. I am rememinded of the spoof quotes "Familiarity breeds attempt" and "Familiarity breeds". Let's go from the start that I believe that sexual relationships belong only within the confines of marriage. Let me cast my mind back to my bachelor days. As a normal guy with normal hormones, avoiding sex also meant avoiding getting close to sex. My body wanted sex too much to trust myself getting too close to the line. For me, living with any member of the opposite sex seems like asking for trouble in that regard. That goes quintuple if that woman were my girlfriend. We are already close to each other, emotionally and physically -- we like to kiss -- we are alone in private almost all the time -- Because of reasons like this, I don't think that it is appropriate for members of the opposite sex to live together.
But let's suppose that I had complete confidence in my will-power so that I *knew* that I didn't have to worry about that. (btw, I don't trust my will-power that much) Even if I wouldn't have those problems, by living that way myself I am encouraging others to do so, and therefore encouraging other people to risk those problems.
And yet again, you asked. I'm willing to share my thoughts/feelings, but it often has be be drawn out of me. I'm always afraid that when I state my opinion, others will feel like I am trying to force my beliefs on them.
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posted
I put this in the other thread, but it belongs here.
quote: Porter and I both believe in avoiding situations that lead to trouble where the dangers outweigh the benefits. We both interact with men and women, but I don't think either of us would seek to become "close buddies" with someone of the opposite sex. We might both be friends with them, though.
Here is just an example: We have a couple of friends who married each other. Porter has known both of them for a long time. He and she were talking on the phone once, talking about the summer jobs they had gotten. The places of work were close enough to each other that she suggested they might carpool together. Porter thought about it, and declined saying that he didn't think it would be wise. Both of them knew what he was talking about, too much time alone together. She agreed that it probably wasn't a good idea despite the convenience. I felt very proud to have such a wise, trustworthy husband.
Basically, we try to avoid situations that (we think) make it easier develop feelings for someone else. Is this what you mean about "avoiding the appearance of evil"? I don't think either of us has missed out on anything significant living this way. And since we both feel the same way, it hasn't come up much as an issue between us.
posted
I'm actually having an issue with something similar right now. One of my roommates is engaged. Although her fiancé and she have pretty high standards, he likes to "put her to bed" every night, which involves him falling asleep next to her and leaving after midnight. I maintain that this is inappropriate, whether or not they're doing anything "evil." This is a house full of girls and she shares a bedroom. There is no reason he should be here in her bedroom at all, much less asleep with her every night. My super-passive roommate who shares a room with the couple ends up sleeping on the couch more nights than not because she's uncomfortable being in her room when he's there. I argue that no matter how innocent your intentions and how far along your relationship, you should not be in your girlfriend's bedroom. Especially in a house full of LDS girls who have agreed to live high standards. They, on the other hand, see absolutely nothing wrong with it and are puzzled that I would deem something so "innocent" inappropriate. Hate to say it, but propriety never had anything to do with what was actually going on.
posted
mph:"I never used that scripture to support what I was saying."
If you have ever referred to "avoiding the appearance of evil," then you in fact did use that scripture, even if you didn't realize it. That's where the phrase comes from.
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quote: If you have ever referred to "avoiding the appearance of evil," then you in fact did use that scripture, even if you didn't realize it. That's where the phrase comes from.
Just because a scripture in the Bible happens to use that phrase it cannot be used without referring to it? The phrase as it is commonly used is still a useful phrase.
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Another extreme application (which I have actually had used against me) is that women should never be engineers, because they have to associate with MEN all day and thus even if they aren't it will give the appearance of being a slut.
Not too much different from Dan's Taliban example IMO.
Personally, I have gazillions of guy friends, the result of being a field that is probably 80% male. Fortunately the man I have isn't threatened by that.
To me this "avoiding appearance of evil" thing taken to the extreme also stunts the healthy development of self-control and personal responsibility for actions. My mother unfortunately is a tragic example of this. If you aren't trustworthy enough that you can't be trusted by your partner in a situation where members of the opposite sex are genuine friends, then I think the issues run much deeper and that this is only a symptom.
posted
beverly and mr_porteiro_head, I think we're coming from completely different cultures. I would be considerably more troubled if Bill decided not to carpool with a woman because of where it might lead than I would be if he were actaully carpooling with her.
You seem to see it as reasonably avoiding temptation, but I see it as, well, nothing. There is no temptation for me to be avoiding unless I feel tempted.
If I got that bit right, then I think I understand and thank you for taking the time to explain it.
Annie, you have no idea what an amazing act of willpower is required on my part to not respond to your post.
Edit: beverly, I think that when he used it by putting it in quotes, the assumption that he was quoting it isn't unreasonable.
posted
I've been thinking about this lately, because I quit having lunch with my Lunch Buddy.
Lunch Buddy is a guy who works at the same building I do, and we used to have lunch once a week. It was great - I tell him the guy dramas, we'd talk about movies, I make fun of him and spin some BS story that he really should know better than to believe by now, and he'd talk about the house they were building. We eat in the cafeteria, and it was only once a week.
What started making me uncomfortable, though, was when he wanted to eat together more than once a week, and the time he suggested going out for lunch. It just bothered me. It also bothered me to hear much at all about his home life, because I didn't consider it any of my business. When I stopped suggesting and started getting e-mails about how much he missed lunch, that was it. It's hard to describe, but it felt like it went from "Fun to have lunch with you." to "I need to have lunch with you or my week is off." The second just wasn't okay.
I never said anything - just was busy several weeks in a row and avoided him after that - but I think that's okay. Since it was nothing overt that made me uncomfortable, I didn't to say anything overt back. For the level of friends we should have been (casual, convenience lunch buddies), what I did was fine. For close friends, it wasn't, but then, I never signed up for close friends anyway.
posted
here's something I posted to beverly on the other thread:
beverly part of the reason (on the other thread) why I have such a major problem with this, is because I don't think automatically limiting your friendships to 50% of the population is healthy. Plus I am a female (as is celia) in a "man's profession" if we didn't make friendships with men at both a professional and personal level we would be completely worthless at the jobs we do.
To tell me that I can't make friends with the guys in my calculus class, when I'm the only female in said class, seems rediculous and excessively prohibitive.
posted
People too often talk about "avoiding the appearance of evil" (e.g. Paul's example of the meat offered to idols, which teaches that you should be aware of the effect your technically harmless but sinful-appearing actions have on those who are watching you), but forget that Jesus himself hung out with sinners all the time. When the pharisees, or even his own disciples, objected to how it looked for him to speak with, touch or even sit and share a meal with such people, what was his response?
There are important principles that trump "avoiding the appearance of evil." That's part of the reason why we are given reason/judgment; it takes some consideration to figure out when it would be best to avoid a situation, and when it is better to go ahead no matter how it looks to other people.
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posted
Celia -- for me, avoiding temptation doesn't mean avoiding succumbing to temptation -- it means avoiding being tempted.
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posted
Celia, I guess there is a culture difference. But also keep in mind that if your husband carpooling with a woman led to him developing feelings for her, the worst thing that could happen is that your relationship is troubled by it or ends.
We have a family structure with kids at stake. It think with so much sobering responsibility, it is easier to feel tempted by something that seems less "weighed down". I think that is often the appeal in cases of adultery. Sometimes family life gets to be a heavy weight to bear. Other pastures can look greener under these circumstances. Hopefully such feelings are temporary, but they happen.
I think the quote marks were quoting the others on the board who have used it more than a Bible scripture, but I can see how that might be confusing.
posted
mph - for me, the idea that being alone with a person of opposite sex would automatically be a temptation, would mean that there is something to be worried about in my relationship. But that's just me.
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quote:Another extreme application (which I have actually had used against me) is that women should never be engineers, because they have to associate with MEN all day and thus even if they aren't it will give the appearance of being a slut.
Nah, you shouldn't be engineers because women suck at math and stuff. Everybody knows that.
mph and beverly, did you have any close friends of the opposite sex before marriage? In cases like that, do you think the friendship should be ended or at least, placed on a lower level?
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posted
The problem in Annie's post isn't one of appearance of evil - it's one of common courtesy. A woman is so uncomfortable with a man in her room that she sleeps on the couch, and her roommate doesn't see anything wrong with her actions?
A bedroom is a personal place. It is perfectly reasonable to expect when rooming with someone that the occupant of the room most nights will be the roommates.
posted
Well since celia won't respond to Annie's post I guess I will. (I'm not speaking on behalf of celia)
I think your roommate is being rude, but probably for completely different reasons than you do. I don't think she is morally in the wrong.
First of all if there was a contract even if only verbal when you all moved in together, that no guys would be in a girls room overnight (I actually agreed to a similar contract with some of my roomates) then she is actually sticking to the letter of the contract.
However the issue is really one of a shared room. In my dorm room we basically agreed that the ground rules were she could do whatever she wanted on her side of the room and I could do whatever I wanted on my side of the room. This included men. Three boys slept in our dorm room at various times. They weren't on my bed though. It was still my room, and I didn't care whether a guy was there or not, if I wanted to take a shower and walk out of the bathroom naked and embarrased my roommates boyfriend that was the guy's problem not mine. It was my room.
I think the roommate who is sharing the room with your friend should have the cajones to stand up to the friend and say this is my room too. If the behavior is unacceptable to her, then she has a right to address it. But it has to be within the pre-defined territorial rules. I drew the line at a different place than other people draw the line, but it was understood from the beginning. If the guy is not actually violating those territorial rules than she needs to deal with it. It isn't like they are making out from the sounds of it so really no offensive behavior is taking place. I was known to walk in on my roommate while they were making out. I simply walked over to my half of the room and began commencing with whatever I needed to do. She had the right to do the same with me and those were the rules we lived by. Most of the time she was very discreet. Our suitemate had a problem with her roommate. It wasn't the making out. It was the lack of courtesy in letting her know what to expect, who and when. However my suitemate stood her ground, and things got better.
But that is exactly the issue. The roomate is allowing the girl with the bf to walk all over and dictate the rules. It has to be a mutual agreement. If she can't treat her roomate with respect courtesy and get along I would suggest that most of her relationships with either sex will be unhealthy in the long term.
The give and take in a serious long term live-in relationship whether married or not is far more difficult than that of getting along with a roommate.
posted
beverly, mr_porteiro_head, I can only echo Kama's comment. I think I understand the point of view, I just don't happen to agree.
I don't think that spending time with a woman would lead to him having feelings for that woman. Something lacking between he and I might lead to him searching for another woman who might be conviently available from his carpool, sure.
Can you see from my point of view? For me, I'd have believe that our relationship was failing in order to think there was anything wrong with him having female friends.
Edit: For Kama's comment, it's not words in your mouth, but what they'd mean comming out of our mouths. As far as what you and I mean by avoiding temptation, aren't we just drawing lines in different parts of the sand?
posted
Banna, notice I didn't talk about "no frienships at all" with people of the opposite sex, I was referring to close friendships where the people involved spend a lot of time alone together.
Being friends with co-workers is fine, but if your work has you traveling together on business with a guy, it is more likely to lead to trouble.
Also, see my comments that someone married with kids is more likely to be attracted to the "unburdened" allure of an affair than a couple living together without children. For you, it is more true that you are together because you choose to be. If either of you stops choosing to be, your relationship ends.
But when you are married with kids, it is more complicated than that. I think there is more motivation to make things work when the people involved have fallen out of love with each other. I don't think that is a bad thing either. I think that is often (certainly not always) what is required for people to stay together for life.
Seriously now, those of you who are living together with no plans for marriage, do you really expect to still be together when you are old? Or do you have a more open mindset of "whatever happens happens"?
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quote:if I wanted to take a shower and walk out of the bathroom naked and embarrased my roommates boyfriend that was the guy's problem not mine. It was my room.
I'm pretty sure the guy had no problem with it, either. Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
So, Banna, Celia, Kama, my point is that these rules are more necessary for married couples with kids than those not.
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posted
My opinion on avoiding the appearance of evil: This may be a bit too general but it's the best I can do.
If you are doing something that is completely innocent and even looks completely innocent, you shouldn't avoid it just because SOMEONE out there thinks you might be doing something evil.
Example: A plumber comes in to fix the drain when hubby isn't home. There's nothing evil about a plumber entering your house and doing his job, even though someone out there might think that more is going on. I consider that to be their problem.
However doing something that looks evil or like it may lead to something evil should be avoided.
Example: Meeting the plumber at the door in a silk robe.
You may have NO intention of seducing or having sex with the plumber, but it certainly LOOKS like you might.
Other examples:
Okay: Opening a drink at the store before paying for it. (You HAVE to pay for it, though, even if it's disgusting.)
Not okay: Opening the drink, taking a sip, and then slipping it into your purse, even if you intend to pay for it at the counter. It doesn't LOOK like you're planning on paying for it.
(On second thought, opening the drink might be wrong, but for an entirely different reason.)
Okay: Letting someone of the opposite sex drive you to the hospital. (Assume you are married.)
Not okay: Letting that person bring you home at midnight, even if the circumstance was pure.
The point is that there will always be people out there that assume you are doing evil. You can't make them all happy. Just avoid what is obviously iffy, and don't worry about the rest.
-----
quote: mph - for me, the idea that being alone with a person of opposite sex would automatically be a temptation, would mean that there is something to be worried about in my relationship. But that's just me.
posted
beverly, I would say that if a person thought that an affair was a way out of the burden of responsibilities of a family, they hadn't given it sufficient thought. That's just making it more complicated. The kind of person who reasoned it out to actually being less complicated would have to accept that only by starting a life without the wife and kids in it would do that. That kind of person could do that just as easily with or without the "other woman".
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- mph - for me, the idea that being alone with a person of opposite sex would automatically be a temptation, would mean that there is something to be worried about in my relationship. But that's just me. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then you underestimate the power of sex.
To turn this around PSI, I find in general that people from conservative religious backgrounds OVERESTIMATE the power of sex, and thus actually give it more power "artificially" then it actually has in nature.
posted
I think a lot of the affairs that married people get into are "escapes" from their normal, stressful, family life. I think they usually happen because the affair appears "rosier" than what they face every day. They count on not getting caught, and they probably are not thinking to clearly in the first place.
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posted
Celia -- I'm not trying to get you to agree with me. Yes, I can see where you are coming from.
I was specifically asked my opinion, and I shared it. Then you shared your feelings, and did it by saying why you think that my actions are too extreme. I got defesive. That was not good. I'm sorry. I'm still new at sharing things that matter over a forum.
BTW, that was a very good explination about Kama's comment. I'll have to remember that.
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quote: To turn this around PSI, I find in general that people from conservative religious backgrounds OVERESTIMATE the power of sex, and thus actually give it more power "artificially" then it actually has in nature.
I only said that because it happens that sometimes people have affairs that they never expected to have. They might have a pretty good relationship with their spouse, but then they get emotionally involved with someone they know, and it's difficult to get out.
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quote:if a person thought that an affair was a way out of the burden of responsibilities of a family, they hadn't given it sufficient thought. That's just making it more complicated.
I don't think that most affairs happen because a person reasons it out and decides that it would be a good idea.
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If you had close friends of the opposite sex before you got married, would you end the friendship? I can understand not actively seeking new friendships like this, but I'm curious how you feel about pre-existing friendships.
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