posted
There is a theory that has been bouncing around my brain for some time now, and the more I think about it, the more I feel it is true. I got to thinkin' about it because people kept bringing up racism and relating it to being against homosexuality.
Here goes: I think that most people who have racist opinions/feelings are not so much racist as culturalist. Perhaps more people in the past were honest to goodness racist in that they believed that the genes of one race were somehow inferior to that of another race. But I think what really bugged most folk was how people from a different culture talked and acted differently and had different customs and values. I think that is even more true of people today who are a little more rational about differences in genes yet still have stigmas against cultures.
For example: have you noticed that while in America there is a definite "Black Culture" that if you look at, say, England, there isn't? It seems to me that there is very little, if any, difference in how a caucasian British and a black British individual acts, talks, and behaves. It also seems that there is no stigma about a white and black dating each other in England while for all our efforts to outgrow our country's racism there is still much stigma here?
Also, it seems that if an African American talks and acts more like mainstream Americans, they are far more likely to be accepted by those who have racist tendancies.
I remember being in the Philippines as a missionary for the LDS church. About half of the missionaries were Filipino, and the other half tended to be American. They were usually paired up together to make things easier for the Americans getting along with language, culture, etc. But there were sooooo many problems in those companionships because of cultural differences.
To give an example, I remember the day when my apartment-mates and I were getting together for a meeting. I was hungry, so I fixed myself a sandwich and sat and ate it in front of them. They were so ticked at me that they didn't talk to me for the rest of the day. It wasn't until much later that I learned that in Filipino culture it is extremely rude to eat in front of others without making a token "offer" of that food to them.
There are plenty of people who are annoyed with "Utah Mormons". So many Latter-day Saints living together have created a culture. While some people do have a problem with the core LDS belief system, quite often it is the "LDS culture" that people have a problem with.
I think I am a bit of a culturalist myself. I like my culture best because it is the one I grew up in. I have feelings of admiration, respect, interest, fascination, or even horror at cultures different than mine. But the more effort I make to understand another persons point of view, the more I am able to find common ground with them. I guess, though, some differences in opinon seem to be irreconcilable. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
That is true... I often feel like I don't have a specific group culture. I have no relgion, very little group affiliation...
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Oh, by the way of clarification, I don't consider myself a "Utah Mormon". I happen to live in Utah at the moment, but I was raised elsewhere, primarily North Carolina, Connecticut, Washington State, and Texas. Yeah, we moved a lot.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
For some reason, I'm thinking you don't consider yourself a 'Utah Mormon'. I can't imagine why, though.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I love how non-Utah Mormons are always eager to point out that they're not Utah Mormons, while Utah Mormons always get offended at the idea that there is such a thing as a Utah Mormon.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Yes, I think that's true. The cultural differences are what make for clashes, even when all parties involved begin with good intentions.
For instance, in my high school there was a big income disparity, but even the poorer white girls rarely fought each other. They would be rude but not physically violent. It was just totally against our culture. However the black girls (who were nearly all low income) almost all believed in fighting. I don't think they particularly LIKED fighting, for the most part, but it was a necessary thing, same as for boys. If you didn't fight you couldn't defend yourself so you were picked on and brutalized.
This led to a situation in which a small group of black girls who were the most stilsonlike decided they had a great thing here, with lots of patsies to milk. They started taking over the bathrooms and only letting people who were approved members of their group use them. You could pay (usually it took all your lunch money plus bus money, etc.) to go each day, or you could try to find a different bathroom where their vigilance had temporarily lapsed. If you tried to just get around them you were physically blocked or shoved around and beat up.
If you fought like a demon, though, only once or a few times, regardless of how much damage you were actually able to inflict, they respected you and didn't try that any more. Being willing to fight was just required in that culture for basic respect.
I think that's true of nearly all boys' cultures too, isn't it? That any boy who refuses to fight will be disrespected?
The difference was much more a cultural thing than any racial thing, though I think some people did try to make it into that. There was also a group of 25 kids, mostly smart but not all, from every school in the system, who were in my executive internship program. We were, like the school system, mostly black but some white. We had wonderful group dynamics, and got along great. I guess we were sort of the hatrack of the Birmingham School System. Anyway, race made almost no difference at all in that group, culturally or otherwise. The only thing I can remember remarking was that at Phillips, which was almost all black, being in the band was considered a very cool thing, and the drum major, who was in our group, it seems was a major star at the school and very popular. In our school, which had more whites, band was a still considered a geeky type thing. Posts: 5509 | Registered: May 1999
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I think that families can have pretty strong "cultural" differences and that can be a pretty major issue when people get married. My hubby and I come from such different family cultures, sometimes I think they are as different as the cultures of different ethnicities/countries. We have done well dealing with them, though.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
beverly, it is such a pleasure to welcome you to Hatrack. You obviously are a whiz at thoughtful conversation, and it's cool to have such a neat person join us. Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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Yes, welcome welcome! You are now on my list of cool people I've never met. It's rather long.
I am not a Utah mormon. I like to emphasize this at every opportunity by thinking up weird insults for Utah mormons. My current favorite is the name "Utard."
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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Well, I have to say, it's kind of the opposite in my Talmud class...the girls intellectually beat the crap out of most of the boys.
Posts: 755 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
But why is it that the cultures we look down on for their differences are the ones that look different from us, while the ones that look like us are interesting, cool, fascinating, etc?
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Icarus, that may be true in the general, but I think many of us have found ourselves fascinated by cultures very different than ours. If they are so different that they go against our inner morality, we tend to be horrified. But there are many ways to be different.
For instance, I have had the delightful opportunity these past couple years of learning much more about the Japanese culture. I have a Japanese sister-in-law and other family-related Japanese ties, and I have had a blast learning about how we are different. You know, this sister-in-law of mine is just one of the coolest people I have ever met. She is so thoughtful and graceful in manner. She continually amazes me. I just know that to her all us Americans must look like complete barbarians!
Also, ever since I was young, I have been fascinated by Science Fiction when it explores the idea of alien cultures. It is fun to just let the imagination wander on what kind of differences there might be.
But, yeah, when our morals come into conflict, say like in "Starship Troopers" (the book NOT the movie!) with the war and the cultural differences that motivated it, that is extremely difficult to overcome.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Icarus, that may be true in the general, but I think many of us have found ourselves fascinated by cultures very different than ours.
True, but that's as individuals. And as individuals, most of us would deny that we are racist, or at the very least say that our level of kneejerk racism is below the norm and that we are working on lowering it still further. (And I would believe those claims from most of the people I know on Hatrack.) But I don't think you can use yourself and the people you know to argue convincingly about how society as a whole works . . . the sample is always too small and too homogenous. What I find when I look around is that Germans, French (as indiciduals, and before the current conflict), Spaniards, Scandinavians, and Britons are generally viewed as being more sophisticated and simply more desireable than people from countries where a different skin pigmentation dominates. And my vague, admittedly unresearched opinion is that our immigration policies bear this out.
quote:You know, this sister-in-law of mine is just one of the coolest people I have ever met. She is so thoughtful and graceful in manner. She continually amazes me. I just know that to her all us Americans must look like complete barbarians!
Gosh, I hope not. That would make her seem pretty racist! Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
"It seems to me that there is very little, if any, difference in how a caucasian British and a black British individual acts, talks, and behaves."
I would argue that while there is perhaps LESS difference, there is still a substantial difference here that, to many Britons, is not inconsequential.
That said, I agree that most of what we consider "racism" is linked as well to what you're calling "culturalism;" that doesn't mean, however, that "culturalists" are necessarily any less bigoted, narrow-minded, or wrong-headed.
Saying "I dislike people who listen to rap and wear baggy pants" isn't much of an improvement on "I dislike black people," especially since your typical racist will use the former argument -- or more insidious ones, like "I don't like the high crime rate among young urban men; why don't they have any self-respect" to justify an aversion to blacks in general, on the assumption that the one category can be mapped directly onto the other.
In fact, it's this phenomenon that we tend to think of when we talk about racism; the assumption that all stereotypical traits of a certain "culture" can be applied to someone based on skin color or regional heritage, or that someone who demonstrates some of those traits is inevitably going to demonstrate others.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Tom, I don't think culturalism is better than racism. My point is I think that most of what people call racism is actually culturalism. And from there, if people can realize that culture is what is bothering them rather than race, they can start to deal with their predjudices more rationally.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Is culturalism as bad as racism? I'm not sure what I think about that. On the surface, it doesn't seem to be bad. One says "I dislike you because of who your grandparents are", which seems completely unfair. The other says "I dislike you because of how you act. I don't care that those behaviors were passed down from your grandparents." That doesn't seem nearly as unfair.
But I do realize that atrocities have been commited becaue of culturalism. An poignant example for me is the slaughter of Mormons in Missouri.
quote:
quote: You know, this sister-in-law of mine ...
I just know that to her all us Americans must look like complete barbarians!
Gosh, I hope not. That would make her seem pretty racist!
I think that Beverly's point is that it's not racist for her to feel that way. I know this Japanes woman (I am Beverly's husband, BTW). I'm would not be surprised if when I come into their house and have to be asked to go back to the front door and remove my shoes, she considers it somewhat barbaric behavior. She feels that removing your shoes is the civilized thing to do, so I am obviously acting uncivilized.
But this has nothing to do with race! Many Japanese feel the same way about the Japanese Brazilians who work in Japan. They are all of the same Japanese race, but the cultural differences are almost insurmountable.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
And I do believe that, as bad as we still are, the US is the least racist country in the world. It is what I love about America. That we are from every human genetic group and location, from every different background there could be, and yet we are all "us".
Posts: 5509 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I don't know if Brezil is a less racist country, but they seem to have less racial problems, despite having similar make-up to what we have here.
I think that the reason is because of the lack of Culturalism. In Brazil, there is no such thing as black culture. It's Brazilian culture. Interracial marriages are pretty common. Most Brazilians have some african ancestry.
In Brazil, being black refers to the color of your skin, not your culture. A child of a black and white union is white if he looks white and black if he looks black.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I don't think Utah mormon has as much to do with your address as it has to do with the perception that many Mormons in Utah don't really have a sincere belief in the church, they just are going with the flow.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote: the perception that many Mormons in Utah don't really have a sincere belief in the church, they just are going with the flow.
Maybe I just walk around with my head in the clouds, but I've been a Mormon all my life, and have lived in Utah for 10 years, and I have never had that perception.
Actually, now that I think about it, I realize that that perception exists. I guess I always just ignored it. I wonder why...
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
When I attended an LDS student ward at the University of Utah (about half Utah Mormons, the other half imports), one girl from Georgia began her remarks from the pulpit by saying that she hated Utah Mormons. That is actually what she said. Granted, it was her lead-in to talking about how welcomed she had felt by THESE Utah Mormons, and how we were changing her perceptions. Still, saying it like that brought the house down.
The next guy got up and mentioned how much he couldn't stand Georgia Mormons.
Posts: 1652 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
The biggest culture shock I ever experienced was moving to Utah to attend BYU. I admit the shock was exacerbated by the abrupt change in climate (I came from Minnesota). I hated Provo because it was dry, hot, and (relatively) treeless. But the social atmosphere was such a big shift for a Mormon born and raised "in the mission field." BYU is to Mormondom what an aquarium is to the ocean--all right, that's an exaggeration, but it's a feeling that took a long time to wear off. I almost fell over the first time I heard the bell tower chime "Come, Come Ye Saints." I couldn't believe they would actually do anything that cheesy. It was like coming to the center of the Mormon universe. It took a while to not feel like I was having my own religion (and culture) forced on me. Now I realize that it was just being reflected back at me by a large, bright mirror. It was like have to answer a big question: Are you really comfortable with your people? Of course, I gradually realized that I didn't have to answer that question all at once, and all with the same answer.
I've always resented the ongoing war between the two valleys here in Utah and the constant battles over what Mormon culture is all about. I liked being blissfully unaware of this war as a Minnesotan, and largely defining my own Mormon culture for myself. It's harder to do that out here, and it's easy to forget that there's an outside world.
I would move my family somewhere else, I think, if it weren't for the good job I have, all the family nearby, and a good home with a mortgage we can handle. I'd move, but why? I don't really mind Utah anymore. There isn't an urge to get out as fast as possible. If you read this you get five brownie points. At the same time, I've sort of worn the Wasatch front raw and it would be good to have a change in scenery. I suppose that's true of any place you decide to settle down in, though.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
afr, my culture shock was the Happy Baptism cards in the grocery stores.
And the wards that are two blocks by three blocks large.
I've always felt a little prickly about Mormon culture at large, but I think I just had a few really terrible experiences with some Mormons who knew the catch-phrases and perks a lot better than the doctrine.
That's a very good question. I don't think it is. I think people can have very good reasons to dislke cultural attributes. For example, I don't have a thing against Arabs, know many people of Arab descent, and yet I am completely turned off by the Arab cultures that believe women shouldn't be taught to read and shouldn't be allowed to hold jobs. I guess you could say I'm a culturalist when it comes to cultures like the one the Taliban propagated.
I disapprove of the black rap culture in the US that puts out messages like women are "ho's" that can and should be slapped around and treated like cattle.
I guess it makes me a culturalist, because I do believe the mainstream American culture that respects women and their rights is superior.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote: . What I find when I look around is that Germans, French (as indiciduals, and before the current conflict), Spaniards, Scandinavians, and Britons are generally viewed as being more sophisticated and simply more desireable than people from countries where a different skin pigmentation dominates.
The nerve mentioned by Belle and Icarus is this..and this has ties to Iraq, but not directly:
Are there superior cultures? I am not talking about what is considered personally superior, but rather, are there standards we an use to compare and contrast different cultures? Should they all be equally valid?
I was reading the paper a while back about a cultural practice of female circumcision/mutilation in some parts of Africa. I think our culture (American/Western--take your pick) is superior. Does that make me a culturalist?
Posts: 1034 | Registered: Mar 2004
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