I know this woman. She's been in and out of the hospital several times since October. Her children currently live with her...there is no one else she feels she can trust so she's making my mother their guardian. She's frightened. She wants to do the right thing, but she's afraid for her health and her childrens' well-being.
posted
I feel so sad for this woman and her daughter. I woudln't call her a deserter, she has clearly said she would return to her duties when she was healthy and her children were taken care of.
Posts: 1021 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I also feel bad for her. I have a friend who's little girl is almost 2. Both her and her husband have been over in Iraq since their daughter was 3 months old, have been back twice for 2 weeks, but at different times. They have no family so their daughter is staying with a friend if theirs. I couldn't imagine leaving Thomas for any amount of time.
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quote:"People look at you as, you got that label as deserter and you know you've got this black cloud hanging over you, and I'm not a deserter.
Yes she is. I mean, she's been in the military for 17 years, she knows the definition of desertion, and this fits it.
I feel for her situation - and I realize that she felt trapped, but by not reporting when ordered she was officially AWOL, and the army does take that seriously.
I guess my main problem with her is the quote above - I would have much more respect for her if she stood up and said "yes, I deserted because I felt I had no choice."
There are official channels that can take care of these types of emergencies (talking about the child care issue, not the medical) I knew someone who worked as a social worker for the military, someone would have taken care of her child until her parents or whoever the temporary guardian was could get to them. As for the medical issue, we don't have very many details about it, but it apparently was not life threatening or hampered her duties in any way, so the army doesn't consider taking time off for a surgery they didn't approve as approved leave.
This is something that you know going into the military - that you may be called upon to serve and leave your family behind. This is an all-volunteer army, she wasn't drafted, and she had to know that when circumstances come up - you may have to deal with them from a distance. You can't just drop everything and leave because there's a crisis at home.
I feel sorry for her and for her family, especially the kids, but she is a deserter and she should turn herself in.
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posted
I strongly disagree. She is needed more by her family right now than she is halfway across the world fighting this stupid war.
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Boon
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posted
quote: feel for her situation - and I realize that she felt trapped, but by not reporting when ordered she was officially AWOL, and the army does take that seriously.
I guess my main problem with her is the quote above - I would have much more respect for her if she stood up and said "yes, I deserted because I felt I had no choice."
Okay, but she asked her superiors for an extension. Her request was denied, and she was ordered to go to the airport the DAY BEFORE she got the email with the order. How could she have followed that order?
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posted
Boon, the way you follow orders in the Army. You get the order - and you follow it.
My father had been waiting for months to receive his next set of orders. He got them on a Wednesday evening - he was to fly out Thursday morning.
Did he say "Wait a minute - I've been waiting for these orders for months, and you finally get them to me and only give me one night before I leave! No way - I've got plans. I'll have to fly out later."
No - he picked up the phone, called me and said "I got my orders, I'm off to Georgia for two weeks of training then I'm going to Guantanamo - I'll call you when I get settled" and he kissed his wife goodbye and drove to the airbase so he could get on a plane the next morning.
This is the army - your job is to follow the orders you're given.
If she is the type of person that wants to put her family above all else, and never let anything come between her and her family when they need her she should not have enlisted. It's a choice you make, it's a sacrifice.
I'm a military child - I understand it. Most people in the military understand it. It's not a question of do you feel like going, or do you think your family needs you more, or do you even agree with the policies or support the president that ordered it - you just go.
I would definitely be torn if I were in that situation - but see I know myself and I know the military life well enough to realize I could not do it so I've never enlisted.
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Boon
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posted
I don't think I'm communicating very well. She got the order on the 24th to be at the airport on the 23rd.
She didn't get the order the day before she was to be at the airport. She was to be at the airport the day before she got the order.
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posted
I think that Boon's point, Belle, was that the orders she received basically said "fly out yesterday". Hard to comply with an order like that. She could have dropped everything and flown out the day she received the order, of course, but she'd still technically have been in violation of the letter of the order.
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posted
She served just fine for 17 years, including, I assume, leaving her daughter on many occasions. This is an extraordinary circumstance. She followed protocol in requesting the leave.
There is a difference between someone going AWOL because they just don't feel like playing war anymore, and someone who wants to go back, but can't because her half-orphaned daughter needs her.
Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:She is needed more by her family right now than she is halfway across the world fighting this stupid war.
She should have thought of that before she joined the army. She doesn't get to decide when to fight or what wars she wants to fight in. She fights where she is told to.
She's been in the army for 17 years, she should know this.
I have sympathy for her as a mother. As a soldier though - I have no sympathy for her plight. It's one faced by soldiers every day and it's heart wrenching and difficult and yet thousands of our fighting men and women do face it and do their duty.
My mother nearly died and had surgery and my father couldn't come home from overseas to be with her. He also missed my birth.
If we want to say that only those soldiers who aren't needed by their families should be fighting - we wouldn't have anyone at all. Can you show me one soldier whose family and friends don't need them at home?
Let's not get past the point that this was a career military woman. No one forced her to join, no one forced her to re-enlist. She knew the requirements, and the consequences for disobeying orders. She should turn herself in and accept those consequences.
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quote:But if she'd complied to the best of her ability, with the documentation in hand, then she probably would be in a LOT less trouble right now.
I expect that that's true. The woman clearly did desert, I think--the question is whether she was justified in doing so. I suspect that refusing to turn herself in will be more likely to result in her ending up behind bars than just dealing with this by facing it directly.
That's not to say that I don't feel for her--I definitely wouldn't want to have to make a choice like that.
posted
Obviously the Army should just sentence her to death. They're legally allowed to, and it would set an example for all the other loving parents overseas right now who are considering deserting this honorable, necessary war.
Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:She got the order on the 24th to be at the airport on the 23rd
Then she goes to the airport with orders in hands and says "I got these orders a day late. I'm reporting as ordered, however.
She doesn't decide just to stay home because someone messed up the orders. Somebody else's mistake doesn't mean she gets to desert without consequences.
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posted
I don't think that any PR spin is necessary. This woman was a career soldier who knew her responsibilities to the service, knew her responsibilities to her family, and made a decision with all of the relevant information at hand. She enlisted and swore an oath that she failed to uphold. Now she needs to stand up and accept responsibility for her actions.
Posts: 1480 | Registered: Dec 2004
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Belle's points are well made - when you sign on the dotted line, there are no guarantees you get to stop and go back when something bad happens.
I was trying not to point out that the parents should have had contingencies in place in case one or both died regarding the care and circumstances of their child. Especially if one is in the Service.
posted
Zeugma, with all respect, when you enter into any armed forces branch you should know that you might be told to fight wars that you don't agree with. That's why if you have a problem with war you don't enlist.
But it is a sad situation. I hope things get figured out here. One thing confused me, though. She said in the article that her daughter was on the streets (her words) for four days after her father died. Surely this can't be true?
Considering the relatively desperate steps the Army is taking to bolster its ranks, including raising the enlistment age for the National Guard/Reserves from 34 to 39 as well as ordering up IRR soldiers.
The last last thing they need to be seen is damning a woman in a plight that most people not intimately familiar with the demands of military service could and probably would identify with.
posted
She was on her THIRD voluntary extension in Iraq...she wanted to be home, but felt compelled to serve.
Her oldest daughter lived with the child's father while she was away. He died.
Her younger daughter lived with her husband. He is not the child's father. He filed for divorce while she was away, and moved himself and the child almost 100 miles away. He wouldn't let the child live with anyone else, even though she didn't want to move, and Theresa wanted her to live with Theresa's parents.
Theresa's health problems do, in fact, affect her job performance. She spent almost every day for months in the infirmary before she came home. She wants to do her job. She wants to be in the military. She's just trying to get her health straightened out, and her girls taken care of.
BTW, the reason she's naming my mother their guardian is because my mother DOESN'T WANT them. She'll take care of them until their mother gets home, but she doesn't want to raise the kids.
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posted
That's the part that troubles me, Opera - and if it is true, it highlights the frantic, terrified emotional context of the situation and makes me believe the Army is pressing a losing cause in trying to make an example of her as a deserter.
Yes, she did desert. Yes, she should turn herself in and take the consequences. But if those consequences include a stint in Leavenworth, she'd better make sure precautions are taken for her children.
posted
Zeugma, I'm astounded by your lack of tact and insight on this matter.
This woman should, and will, be used as an example. Death seems a bit extreme, but it is well within their rights. She signed the enlistment papers and was aware that she was committing a court-marshallable offence. She also knew that the military provides many levels of support and exemptions to deal with situations like hers. To allow her to willfully desert without repercussions would be very disrespectfule to all of the loyal men and women serving in our armed forces that left family behind.
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posted
Trevor, I'd really like to resond in depth, but I'm already running late for a meeting.
The interesting thing about the military is that the upper brass may look for a PR spin, the rest of the service chugs along with what they're required to do. No amount of PR will save this woman from (at a minimum) a dishonorable discharge, and a forfeiture of any retirement pay due to her.
posted
So Boon (if you don't mind me asking) was the child really on the streets until she got home? I can understand the mom feeling like her child was on the streets, because her only surviving parent was in another country and frantic to come home. I guess I'm asking because I want both parties to be completely honest about the situation and not add things out of drama. (that sounds bad, but I don't mean it in a bad way) Either way I still feel sympathy for the woman and hope things work out.
posted
I'm not saying she should receive a medal and be the poster child for Army compassion and kindness either. Belle has made several very good points about this woman's responsibilities and I've already observed a relative lack of planning for emergency contingencies.
But what I am saying is the Army, like any other organization, is more than capable of working around difficult situations if so inclined.
And clearly, the cost of "throwing the book" at this woman far outweighs any benefit gained. And I do mean cost in terms of public opinion, morale and other factors that the Army has to contend with now.
quote:Zeugma, I'm astounded by your lack of tact and insight on this matter.
You're right. I need to exhibit the admirable tact and insight that this woman's commander showed her. She is being completely unreasonable. Obviously she deserves to die for this.
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Boon
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posted
Okay...yes, the child was "on the streets" for at least a couple of days. It took her that long to walk to a relative's home.
The father was married, and the step-mother wouldn't let her call or email Theresa to tell her that the father died. The step-mother apparently kicked the 14 year old out after a disagreement.
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I think this woman should get the punishment she deserves, not the punishment that would enhance the Army's image or serve as an example to other soldiers.
She is a deserter. The question is whether the extenuating circumstances should mitigate her punishment. The fact that the Iraq war is somewhat unpopular should not affect the outcome of this case.
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Boon
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posted
Oh, and her superiors have always known where she was/is and how to reach her. She has medical documentation. She was in contact with them via email and telephone, but apparently she "failed to physically present herself."
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posted
Hey, if a 14-year-old girl had to spend a couple of days walking to another relative's house after her father died because her mother was too important to the war, then that's her duty as an American citizen. If her mother had been allowed to come home and care for her, then she wouldn't have been in Iraq to protect us Americans from..... uh..... mass destruction?
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quote:The father was married, and the step-mother wouldn't let her call or email Theresa to tell her that the father died. The step-mother apparently kicked the 14 year old out after a disagreement.
We need to report this woman to the police.
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posted
That's horrible. Though, I admit, it sounds as though that's the witchy stepmother's fault and no fault of the army. I would agree that the woman is a deserter, but I sincerely hope that the army does take the circumstances into account. Things just can't be cut and dried all the time when parents serve, you know?
posted
Where the military is concerned, all things are cut and dried. Regs are regs, and there are consequences for your actions. The fact is that regardless of the unfortunate situation that she found herself in, she deserted. Should she go to jail? No, of course not. Shold she be punished in some manner? Yes.
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posted
THT, I guess that was wishful thinking on my part. My cousin just returned home on leave after a 13 month deployment, so unfortunately I'm well aware of army regulations. I'm glad I'm not making the rules, in any case.
I come from a very military oriented family, and I've seen the good and the bad of military life. During the early nineties, my father was deployed (somewhere...he still won't tell me) and I was diagnosed with cancer. The Army had him returned to the D.C. area within 24 hours of receiving notification. That's part of why I find it so difficult to hear that this woman had no options.
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posted
As a 17 yr vet it is likely she could get out pretty easily, unless she is under a stop loss MOS. I think it is sad that she is facing so much trouble, but she did not do this for her daughter, how much worse will it be for her child while she is serving a five year prison term? She may have mental health issues that mitigate but certainly not family issues that qualify.
posted
My family has had very bad experiences with the military. My brother was a marine serving at 29 Palms in CA. He had a ton of medical issues from things he picked up in boot camp (including fibromyalgia and cellulitis that literally ate a hole through his thigh). They did little to restrict his duty and get him anything resembling decent medical care. He kept asking his superior officers for help on the matter, but was repeatedly more or less told to shut up and not cause any trouble on the matter.
Lucky for him my mom is a fanatical loving mother who emailed, called, wrote, and faxed our Senator asking for invervention (which he promptly got), and made a call to our Uncle whose cousin (on the other side of the family) is the head of the Air Force medical division or something like that. Finally he got a medical discharge, but even then they left him pretty much out in the cold. The VA Hospital was wretched, and he had to have several surgeries for problems that developed as a result of the diseases he picked up. He gets his school paid for but other than that receives no benefits, and no medical care. I should also note that when his commanding officer found out he was being discharged he purposely held him until one day before his two year mark (in a four year enlistment) and then sent him home, this way they wouldn't have to pay out benefits.
I have a low opinion of the military (and yes I know my personal story has nothing to do with the case at hand, just a little background on my feelings, and a nice anecdote on the lack of success some have with "official channels").
Yes this woman is a deserter, she should be punished somehow. But the military needs to take a realistic view on this, she needed to get her home situation in order. Having a family issue that you want to take care of is one thing, but when you are needed, it's another matter I feel. Yes she knew that something might happen to her family, but I'm guessing she never imagined something this tragic would happen. Punish her, give her some confinement time (a month), a punitive reprimand, fix her medical issues, then send her back to finish her tour.
quote: If her mother had been allowed to come home and care for her,
Even if she could have called her mother, I can guarantee there is no way the mom would get home in 48 hours from overseas. The person at fault for the girl being on the streets isn't the military, it's the stepmother who apparently kicked her out (assuming all that is true)
Why the girl couldn't go to a pay phone and call her relative is a little confusing to me, but hey, I wasn't there.
Still, none of what happened before has any bearing on whether or not she is a deserter now.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
"If the Army had wanted you soldiers to have families, we would have issued you one."
*grin*
Not to make light of this woman's situation, of course, but that is a phrase Army Spouses like to grumble at one another when the military is being particularly uncooperative towards family members.
She is absolutely a deserter by definition. There seems to be mitigating circumstances (from what I have read). I hope JAG takes that into consideration.
The stepmother needs arresting and interrogation and whatnot. So sez I.
The military (Army in particular) is wretched when it comes to personnel with medical issues. Especially when it seems that the soldier will have to be separated with a medical disability. My friend's husband is dealing with that right now, he probably has Krohn's disease (an ailment of the gastrointestinal and immune system) and is dealing with kidney stones this very moment (poor friend!) but his commander wouldn't let him out of a training session for sick leave. The man is in recruiting, you see.
The Army loves to throw Motrin (or its generic equivalent) at medical problems. My husband's wretched back (from operating heavy equipment) is evidence of that.
I have sympathy for this soldier (the woman of Boon's story), but not surprise.
Posts: 1545 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I think the death penalty for desertion can only be applied if it is 'desertion in the face of the enemy'. In other words, running away while you're under fire and leaving your comrades to get shot. I strongly suspect that there cannot be a death penalty for not showing up at a base behind the lines.
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Boon
unregistered
posted
Well.
After some cursory legal research (I'm not a lawyer nor a law student, merely a googler) it appears she's guilty of being AWOL but not of desertion, since she does not intend to be away from the military permanently.
Belle's logic is pretty compelling. I agree that she is AWOL, but I would hope the powers that be would lean toward the lenient side of that rather large range of consequences they have available to them, given the circumstances.
I don't agree that she should never have signed up in the first place if she was not prepared to abandon her daughter. These are pretty unforseeable events.
I have to say that the medical claim sounds, not illegitimate, but like it's being used as an excuse. Let me explain: I understand what you say about her being in and out of care while on duty, etc. etc. But it sounds like she had no plans to go AWOL for the medical condition alone, until this thing with her daughter came up. It sounds like she then threw this in the mix as well in order to get emergency leave. Nothing wrong with that up to that point, but then it's not really a mitigating factor in her AWOL status, once that emergency leave was denied.
As far as the orders arriving after the date she was to report, again, I agree with Belle. If she had gone the next day, with documentation, I doubt she would have been punished. I'm not condemning her for making the decision to go AWOL, mind you, simply saying that her health problems and the error in her orders do not really mitigate. The sympathy I have for her actions (I have far more sympathy for her situation in general) is based on the situation with her daughter alone.
(I have students try to pull this sort of "You said to do problems 2 through 20 even and there were only eighteen problems on the page, so I did nothing" routine all the time. An error in your instructions does not free you from all responsibility to follow them.)
Again, I'm sorry if this sounds harsh. I am not condemning her. I think even someone who makes a committment like hers can find a situation where that committment is not as important as the committment we make to our families. There is a time to honor all committments, and there is a time to decide which ones are your priorities. For example, my children would be better off if I were at home to take care of them instead of working, except that working is part of how I take care of them, and I have good reason to believe they are well taken care of while I am gone. In the meantime, I have signed a committment to my employers, to give them my time and my effort, and part of that committment includes not being absent without notice. But if I get a phone call in the middle of the day that my kids are sick, I leave. That's just how it is. I understand that the situations are not remotely parallel, but I'm just trying to further illustrate why I don't condemn her for her actions, or say she never should have joined if her committment was not "serious," but why, in the end, she did fail to follow orders, and she is guilty of at the very least being AWOL.
-o-
Something should be done about that stepmother, and about that ex-husband as well. (The one who's still alive, or did I misunderstand? That part was rather confusing.)
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Something should be done about that stepmother, and about that ex-husband as well. (The one who's still alive, or did I misunderstand? That part was rather confusing.)
