posted
So, just to be sure I understand what you're saying, your contention is that killing people to send a message to the organization with which they're affiliated is wrong?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, really, I mean, hey, it's not like they took a picture of him with women's underwear on his head... that would've been really bad...
Tom, there is a huge difference between an unfortunate incident and cold-bloodedly cutting a prisoner's throat. That's why we talk about "casualties", "collateral damage", and "a massacre".
If you refuse to acknowledge that difference on the basis that "dead is dead", I suppose that's your lookout.
quote: So, just to be sure I understand what you're saying, your contention is that killing people to send a message to the organization with which they're affiliated is wrong?
I'm a tad confused by your question too... A group killing people to send a message to their own group is wrong? This must be rhetorical but I don't get your point. These are terrorists who murdered an innocent person in a horrible, painful, violating way. I say we kill the killers.
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
"Tom, there is a huge difference between an unfortunate incident and cold-bloodedly cutting a prisoner's throat."
Oh, absolutely. So what's the ratio, exactly? Is it seven innocent deaths to one deliberate murder? Twenty to one? At what point does our desire for vengeance exceed the demands for justice?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote: Tom, there is a huge difference between an unfortunate incident and cold-bloodedly cutting a prisoner's throat. That's why we talk about "casualties", "collateral damage", and "a massacre".
In the case of prisoners, there's more involved than an "unfortunate incident," including rapes, beatings and murders, according to reports.
There's also supposed to be a huge difference between trained military and terrorists.
"Collateral damage"= "we bombed the hell out of the neighborhood so as not to risk injury to our troops."
I'm not defending terrorists at all. In fact, one of the things that displeases me about the administration is that they got distracted from anti-terrorist activities. Instead, they got us into a situation that has increased regional sympathy for terrorists and enhanced their recruiting.
Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
On the ABC NEWS message board, where people are talking about this -- there are some people demanding that the media show THIS video in its entirety as much as they showed the prisoner abuse photos.
I can't believe people really want this video to be shown -- think about the poor guy's family -- if it was shown over and over, that would just be horrible...
And it says he wasn't military, and wasn't working a civilian job -- so why was he over there?
quote:These are terrorists who murdered an innocent person in a horrible, painful, violating way. I say we kill the killers.
That was their excuse, though.
I invade your country and kill your husbands, wives, and children. You blow up my soldiers in response, and drag my civilians through the streets. I attack your city and rape your people in response. You kill my people in response. I kill your people in response. And so on...
This is an effective progression, isn't it? Definitely the sort of thing that will mean an end to terrorism and a better life for Iraq...
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think this puts the torture of prisoners in a different light, though, doesn't it?
It also proves that the military was right to try to keep the pictures/abuse/investigation under wraps, "to protect American lives."
Potentially innocent man is leashed and led around naked vs. verifiably innocent man has his head hacked off.
hmm
Pouring cold water on people, humilliating them in admittedly horrible ways, still doesn't really seem to balance this, Tom.
It will only make it easier for people to justify killing a lot more suspected terrorists, I think. I know it made me angry.
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Berg's mother, Suzanne Berg, said her son was in Iraq as an independent businessman to help rebuild communication antennas. Berg, who owned Prometheus Methods Tower Service Inc., had been missing since April 9, she said.
''He had this idea that he could help rebuild the infrastructure,'' she said. *** Berg was in Baghdad from late December to Feb. 1 and returned to Iraq in March. He didn't find any work and planned again to return home on March 30, but his daily communications home stopped on March 24. He later told his parents he was jailed by Iraqi officials at a checkpoint in Mosul.
''He was arrested and held without due process,'' his father, Michael Berg, told the Daily Local News of West Chester. ''By the time he got out, the whole area was inflamed with violence.''
On March 31, the FBI interviewed Berg's parents in West Chester. Jerri Williams, a spokeswoman for the Philadelphia FBI office, told The Philadelphia Inquirer the agency had been ''asked to interview the parents regarding Mr. Berg's purpose in Iraq.''
On April 5, the Bergs filed a lawsuit in federal court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military. The next day Berg was released. He told his parents he hadn't been mistreated.
The Bergs last heard from their son April 9, when he said he would come home by way of Jordan, Turkey or Kuwait. But by then, hostilities in Iraq had escalated.
Suzanne Berg the family had been trying for weeks to learn where her son was but that federal officials had not been helpful.
posted
He was helping rebuild the nation, something many people ironically insist that we aren't doing or spend time complaining about the "unprecedented level of private contractors involved in this war..."
Edit to clarify: I bet dollars to donuts he shows up on the monetary and body numbers that people put together when they are talking about the private industry involved in this war. The point is probably not worth belaboring, though.
I finally realized that in part of the ABCNEWS article, which is a bit longer version:
quote: Suzanne Berg, the mother of the 26-year-old Berg, of West Chester, Pa., said her son was in Iraq as an independent businessman to help rebuild communication antennas. He had been missing since April 9, she said
quote:It also proves that the military was right to try to keep the pictures/abuse/investigation under wraps, "to protect American lives."
Well, no. The harm done to our mission as a whole is far greater if you keep things like these under wraps. Problems like this only get worse if the government is not held accountable to them, and they DO eventually leak out if you try to hide them - as evidenced by this.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm sure that trying to hide it hurt, yes, but I think this illustrates the concern that lead to trying to hide it. That's all I'm saying.
Once it happened, there really wasn't anything that could be done to protect people from the backlash. Still, I understand their reasons for trying, even though it was foolish to do so.
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Olivet, is there a calculus involved in this situation? How many people should march around naked and be forced to perform oral sex on each other in exchange for a beheading?
I'm rather uncomfortable saying, "Yeah, this is bad. But this is worse." Because whenever that sentence is uttered, it's uttered as justification.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:He was helping rebuild the nation, something many people ironically insist that we aren't doing or spend time complaining about the "unprecedented level of private contractors involved in this war..."
Edit to clarify: I bet dollars to donuts he shows up on the monetary and body numbers that people put together when they are talking about the private industry involved in this war. The point is probably not worth belaboring, though.
Jim-Me, there isn't anything to suggest he was going to help "rebuild the nation" for free.
I don't mean to villainize him - but I don't think it's right to suggest that businesses over there are engaging in "nation-building" as acts of charity. The wages being paid to just American truck drivers are extremely high - but they have to be to get Americans to want to work in the area. We can all see why now if we didn't before.
Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
The really, REALLY weird thing is, if the prisoners had just been outright executed, nobody would be as upset as they are. That's kinda scary.
I don't think you can make a mathamatical equation for lives. Just doesn't work that way.
This does prove, however, that we do not have the will that they do. It can only get worse from here. If we saty there, it will get worse. If we leave, it will only make us seem weak, and the terrorism will follow us home again.
I hate the f***ing world today.
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
What we need is a general renaissance of Stoic ideals; bad things are going to happen, and we either devolve in an attempt to not "look weak", or we decide to accept and understand the horrible situation we are facing, and in spite of that to stand by our ideals, because they are what makes us strong.
But this incident is just sick.
-Bok
EDIT: Olivetta, there is a plausible third way; contritely go (as contritely as a nation state can be) to the international community earnestly, and ask for their help. Make this something the world community has vested interest in. We were doing well with Afghanistan and the more nebulous WoT prior ro our current engagement.
posted
This is only the beginning of how Iraq will turn into a PR nightmare for the US just like Vietnam.
I think a lot of people think the June 30th turnover means troops will come home, I don't think the public understands that just the opposite will be true: that not only will the troops stay, but more will be deployed and the ones there will be there longer. As body bags keep coming back to America hopefully it will teach us that this neocon-inspired imperially-lite war cost us far too much.
Posts: 369 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Tom, I think that can be a statement of fact without being a justification.
I think we can, by induction, safely say that all sane people would prefer to be menaced with apparently deadly force (to pick one of the abuses the Iraqis suffered) to being systematically beheaded by, apparently, a knife of some sort (as opposed to the relatively swift stroke of an ax opr a guillotine). We can for purposes of this discussion, uses Slash's definition of insane and thereby, leave the man who wanted to eat his own flesh and be killed for sexual play out of this discussion.
That doesn't justify anything.
But I think what you mean is that you are worried that this incident does what it did for Telperion-- renews the resolve and willingness to fight because our enemies are, indeed, demonstrably, by their own propoganda, significantly more evil in their treatment of prisoners than we are. The fact that this type of thing hasn't happened on as large a scale as our maltreatment can be explained by, perhaps, their decreased opportunities with prisoners, having by and large failed in combat.
I, for one, am not discouraged or dismayed by that reaction.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
He saw a need. He went to try and fill it. He expected, I hope, the danger. He certainly hoped to be recompensed for facing it. I don't see the problem or the relevance of this, especially as you state that you aren't trying to vilify the guy. If that's not your intent, than why bring it up?
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
BOK! Thank you. I guess I just really needed to hear that there might be hope. I don't want my babies getting blown up because of all this.
It's like... it's like this boy I know, who was singled out downtown and beaten just because he was really, really white. His blond hair stood out in the knot of his friends he was walking with, and some older boys beat him for it. He just symbolized some idea to them, and who he was didn't matter.
I just don't want to live in a world like that.
Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Rich, do you really think the neocons would ever do that? They are all about American Empire Lite.
Posts: 369 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
No, of course not. (The author of that essay is not exactly a neocon.) Hence "fantastic" = "possible in a fantasy world"
Posts: 1839 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
"But I think what you mean is that you are worried that this incident does what it did for Telperion-- renews the resolve and willingness to fight because our enemies are, indeed, demonstrably, by their own propoganda, significantly more evil in their treatment of prisoners than we are."
No. I am worried that this incident, by giving us an even worse example of atrocity, will encourage us to ignore the fact that our own actions are empirically evil -- that, by simply being LESS evil, we will conclude that we are actually good.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:I think we can, by induction, safely say that all sane people would prefer to be menaced with apparently deadly force (to pick one of the abuses the Iraqis suffered) to being systematically beheaded by, apparently, a knife of some sort (as opposed to the relatively swift stroke of an ax opr a guillotine).
I'm not so sure this is true, but maybe the exceptions are just that, exceptions. I do know a non-negligible amount of people who profess that they would rather be killed than raped, but maybe that's all talk. _________________________________________________
This is all too bad, but to put this in perspective, aren't there Iraqi innocents dying everyday? And they didn't even hop on a plane or collect a check, they just live there. I don't know if we get to get hopping mad, and much less surprised, when one of our own passes.
I've never been itching to see the next round of prison video, probably including a rape or a murder, and if it's going to spawn more atrocity as opposed to wake Americans up to our own mistakes, I don't mind if the Pentagon puts the lid on them. The acts of all terrorists are abhorrent, it doesn't matter whose side they are on.
posted
Olivetta, I won't give up on this crazy species if you don't, okay? Glad I could brighten your outlook on humanity a little. Goodness knows it needs some decent marketing right about now.
posted
Where is the outcry among the supporters of the opposition against this? Where is the investigation by the opposition leadership trying to discover how this came to happen?
I am appalled by the treatment of prisoners in coalition custody, and want it to be put right. Thank God we live in a free society and can see that it is put right. Nobody ever said a free society stays free of its own accord, though. We have to constantly take responsibility ourselves for that freedom, and be willing to stand up for it, speak out for it, and oppose those who would deprive us of it.
I don't see the forces opposed to the U.S. in Iraq as standing for any such thing, though. They don't seem to want freedom or justice or fair play and equal opportunity. They seem to want more strongarmism and tyranny, this time with them on top.
I pray for peace and stability in that country. We must not let those who are filled with hate, those who would destroy everything people are giving their hearts and lives to build, dismay us or steal our resolve.
There are orcs on both sides of every war. We are not spotless good guys. But we are one hell of a lot better than the bad guys. And we have a system that allows the orcs among us to be found and punished, to be discouraged from their orc ways, and trained to better behavior. I would not live anywhere besides a free society. I want to extend to all Iraqis that same privilege.
Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
| IP: Logged |
quote:They don't seem to want freedom or justice or fair play and equal opportunity. They seem to want more strongarmism and tyranny, this time with them on top.
This is what usually goes unmentioned to such popular responses as, "But we're invading their country, what do you expect?"
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:I am appalled by the treatment of prisoners in coalition custody, and want it to be put right. Thank God we live in a free society and can see that it is put right.
I don't know if these things can just be "put right." It's a pretty American way of thinking if we say, "The US is sorry about sodomizing you and your cellmate bleeding to death, how about we cut you a check."
If we saw it coming, and yes the atrocities were forseeable, then you can't just cut a check, you can't even say that it's never going to happen again. You can't buy or apologize your way to putting it right. It's like trying to cut air, swallow a brick, walk into MacDonald's and trying to buy one french fry, or pay for a car in tulips.
quote:They don't seem to want freedom or justice or fair play and equal opportunity. They seem to want more strongarmism and tyranny, this time with them on top.
It's a war. They want to win. So do we, if we wanted fair play, we'd hand out tanks to even up the score.
______________
We don't know who the all bad guys are. We just don't. We know the really bad guys and the really good guys. The terrorists and firefighters, respectively, but the there is a whole lot of people in between, shifting and straddling the line, and just flat look different than we thought they would.
If Alqueda killed 3500 of us, how many Iraqi's does that give us the "right" to kill?
How much more/less brutal is killing someone from 10,000 feet in the air with a bomb, than a beheading?
MY POINT IS...
...as a CHRISTIAN, I am AGAINST WAR.
WAR IS BY ALL MEANS a LAST alternative.
... and we have mountains of evidence that George W. Bush and his Cabninet planned the Invasion of Iraq pre-sept 11th, and then used sept 11th as a justification for their plans.
This BUSH war is our own version of the Isreal/Palestine hell, a never-ending cycle of violence.
quote: But we are one hell of a lot better than the bad guys.
Does anyone remember James Byrd the gentleman who was killed for being black and then dragged around behind a truck a few years ago?
2 days ago, some one knocked ovewr his headstone and then wrote a bunch of anti-black people graffitii all over it.
I do realize that Americans feel they are "a hell of a lot better" than everyone else in the world, what I don't see is the proof.
posted
I'll tell you why. Because it is against the law to lynch people in the U.S., and because that law is now enforced. Because during the 50s and 60s the NAACP mounted a legal challenge to injust laws in the U.S., to Jim Crow laws which made one segment of our population legally second class citizens, because they took their challenge to the Supreme Court of the land, and won those cases. Then thousands of Americans stood up in direct action campaigns and brought that new legal framework into reality. They precipitated a crisis of the law, a situation in which local authorities were contravening the law of the land, and so federal authorities came in to enforce that law.
Many times, people carrying out perfectly legal actions like groups of blacks and whites riding the bus together and sitting together in the "white only" waiting rooms that existed contrary to the federal interstate commerce laws, were beat up by crowds of thugs. When the local police finally arrived on the scene an hour or two later after turning their head to the thugs, they would often arrest the people who had been legally riding the bus, or sitting at the lunch counter, rather than those who were illegally beating them up.
There was a crisis in which it wasn't at all clear that the law was really the law in our country. There was the possibility that it would all fall apart into chaos. This was within my lifetime.
But the center held. People did ugly things here then too. Bombs killed innocents. Four little girls died in church one morning, right downtown. Finally the overwhelming tide of people were sickened by the thugs and bombers. Finally the federal government reluctantly and with much care, sent federal marshalls to enforce the law where local police would not.
Finally, the day was won by people who obey the rule of law. So two necessary requirements were met. One, our system was better, because the constitution of the United States says you can't act that way here, and two, the people of the U.S. finally decided they believe in our system, in the rule of law, and have no truck with bombers and murderers.
Because of our great system, because of the legal protections of a free society, we are able to fight and win legal battles here to protect people's freedom. The civil rights movement set a precedent. People of all ethnicities and backgrounds work together today without giving it a second thought. I and a friend who immigrated from India and a friend who immigrated from China can sit down and talk about world events, and say "we have a responsibility..." "no no no we don't... " but the "we" is never questioned. We are us. We are a we. All Americans.
[ May 12, 2004, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: ak ]
Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
| IP: Logged |
posted
The U.S. is trying to make it possible for the people of Iraq to have that too. The other side is not. That is the difference between us.
Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
| IP: Logged |
posted
But what are "our" means? How can that count anything but legal actions carried out by our legally empowered representatives in the country, operating under the officially sanctioned rules of engagement?
If some go outside of this, how can that be considered to be "us"?
Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
| IP: Logged |
posted
I am quite relieved to hear Iraqi public opinion is against this killing. It's not hopeless. Stability and the rule of law can again come to be, despite all appearances to the contrary. I will not lose faith.
Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
Thank you. I guess I just really needed to hear that there might be hope. I don't want my babies getting blown up because of all this.![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
