posted
I was a devout Roman Catholic till about 17. Then I started questioning and eventually I became a militant atheist, believing that religion was the opiate of the masses and anyone who believed was a fool. Science! But over the years, through experience and education, I've really mellowed out. I'm now a neutral agnostic. Don't believe in a supernatural, but am no longer knocking people's religion (as much).
Part of it is because I have a found memory of my religious upbringing. There was no pain or discomfort...and it taught me about the older world, it's values and beliefs and history and rituals...as well as about music and beauty and respect for humanity. All of which is beautiful and I think should be preserved...if for no other reason than aesthetics and anthropological study.
I still think that Humanity can get by just fine without religion and that in many ways it is a crutch. We are in an adolecence and eventually we will have to grow up and we won't need some almighty father watching down on us and telling us what to do. We'll be able to move out and live on our own, so to speak.
But the gist of my post is how many peeps have this feeling? That you might be agnostic but remember fondly your christian(or whatever religion) upbringing.
OR, something that might be even more facinating, people of science who also are religious! I think those peeps are the coolest. Religious/spiritual but know and understand how the universe works and it's true history.
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posted
Well, I'd like to consider myself one of the latter, even though I'm not a formal student of science. I have far better scientific understanding than the average layperson, I think.
So far, I've never read of a scientific discovery that made me doubt my Catholic beliefs.
posted
Well, I'm not technically a "person of science," but I am a religious person (Latter-day Saint) who subscribes to evolution, the heliocentric solar system, etc. Will that do?
[ May 12, 2004, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Yozhik ]
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posted
I'm a former physics and mechanical engineering major, now United Methodist clergy. I haven't seen any contradiction yet, either.
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posted
I once wanted to become an atheist, but I gave up - they have no holidays. Henny Youngman (1906 - 1998)
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posted
I do not really miss having a religion. It would frown upon too many things I like such as- Racous rock and roll music (Such as Dir en grey) Various R rated movies and other such things. So, as a replacement I have an odd mysticism I can't really explain.
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I do now how you feel. My history with religion is rather long and painful, but suffice it to say that I left my parent's Christian church at 14 and went through a year of exploring other religions, agnosticism, science, etc. I finally settled on a very loose form of Deism. In other words, I believe in a loving God but do not believe that He interferes in the life changing events of people's lives. About every other religious issue I feel rather agnostic.
I cherish my childhood memories of acting out scripture stories, of piecing together the complicated theology until it made sense to me, of learning ancient history and trying to match it with Biblical history. Most of all, I miss the feeling of connection that I had to all others of my beliefs. I miss the sense of community. I hate visiting my family and feeling like an outsider. I miss the simplicity and innocence of accepting what I'm told on faith.
Sometimes, my soul aches painfully for such peace and innocence. I think that's a part of why I frequent this board. I love to read the religious posts because they remind me of a time that has passed for me. Yet I know that now that this innocence is broken, it can not be fixed. I believe that finding morality through reason and contemplation has made me a stronger and better person than from accepting it on faith. I cherish the pride that comes from performing this responsibility and have no desire to return to my previous beliefs.
Still, at times the responsibility weighs heavily on my shoulders and I remember fondly the days before the weight was there.
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posted
Yah... I had, very intensly in the early years, a sense of loss from a community. Even my family, since religion wasn't just a belief but how we lived out lives and the holidays and whatnot... But I couldn't and still can't give up on the quest for the truth...and I won't settle for anything less. I guess I'd make a good Unitarian eh! Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I haven't chosen a religion yet-I was raised catholic, but refused confirmation. But I do believe in God. Just decided one day that God was real. It doesn't remove and responsibility from me to make decisions or anything, since I do not just accept teachings of any religions without deciding first which parts are and are not moral for myself. Belief in God has never prevented me from use of logic to decide what is right, and its comforting to know that even though I may have to be doing hard things, and it will have to be me doing them-I'm not completely alone.
Posts: 3493 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Let me post a letter I wrote that fills some more details in:
Well... like I said I was raised Catholic by my Mom...my Dad was raised Baptist, but became atheist and a philosopher. But he approved of raising my brother and I up in religion since it would instill in us a good moral code... and because Catholic schools are better on average.
I took religion for granted through most of my childhood. Didn't think on it much. But I did think on science. Carl Sagan was one of my heroes growing up, and still is today. I used to watch his Cosmos show on PBS all the time.
I have always loved science and learning. History and politics and sociology. And through my learning I saw too many holes in organized religion. It could not be possible.
That and learning psychology and history I could see how religions are born. They are half philosophy (a form of science, since science is only the process of observing the world around us) and half social control.
We as humans are programmed with a huge curiosity and a fear of the unknown. It is a survival trait. The more we know about something the less likely it has a chance to kill us. That is why we are afraid of the dark, or the unknown, or of loud noises or of differences. We are programmed to take notice of the odd. Sometimes to fear it and sometimes to be curious about it. But ALWAYS the unknown creates anxiety in us.
Always we come to a limit in our understanding of the world around us...a limit to our science or philosophy. To feel that fear and void, when we have nothing else, we make up stuff.
So the ancients didn't know where rain came from. "We don't know! We don't know! It's.. .it's.. .it's GOD! Ahhhh.. we feel much better now.. let's go back to farming the field."
Of course we have limits to our knowledge today too, some the same as in ancient days. Where did we come from, what will happen when we die, etc, etc... We use religion as a mental crutch to calm the anxiety so we can go about our daily lives.
I think the goal is to finally wake up and deal with the unknown...as painful as it is...embrace it and try to expand our knowledge through the process of science. :-)
Since my abandonment of organized religion I've gone through a LOT of mental anguish... to the point where I realize that not everyone can deal with it... and thus leading me to accepting religion and not condemning it every chance I get. As long as people don't force their views on me, believe whatever you want. And I won't force my views on others in an mean spirited way, if at all. I won't dismiss someone anymore just because they are religious. And I would rather have people religious, as false as it might be, than having a society of anarchy. That that religion is needed to have civilization... but it is a form of benign social control for those peeps that won't or cannot deal with the endless unknowns of the Universe.
posted
I've got alot more to say on this subject than what I'm gonna post here but since I have so few insights worth sharing I'm gonna save it for another time. I will say that I believe that religion was the early science (much as you indicated Teleperion) but has since evolved and become more pervasive. Aggghhh enough for now.
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quote: I still think that Humanity can get by just fine without religion and that in many ways it is a crutch.
I disagree. The worst offenders of human rights in the last century were all secularists: Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Hussein. Countries in which religion was suppressed for generations fair far worse after the regime has left than those for who religion was left up to them or enforced.
I suggest reading the first book of Mere Christianity by CS Lewis which is a fascenating treatise on the existance of something divine, but doesn't go so far as to actually define that thing.
I probably fall into the religious person who is also scientific. I majored in molecular biology in college. If I went back, I'd probably finish out in particle physics. I have a deep desire to understand how the universe came to be and how it works, but I am bound by my own ethics to seek after truth. I see no discrepancy between an earth that is billions of years old in which life has evolved and God. IMO this makes God even greater as it increases the scope of creation. I simply don't make the same assumptions that a naturalistic evolutionist might make.
quote: We use religion as a mental crutch to calm the anxiety so we can go about our daily lives.
And again, I agree completely Tel! Personally, I think that this is the most appealing aspect of religion. It delivers your life meaning on a silver platter. In most religions, this life is a test and if you live it well you're rewarded, if you life it poorly you're punished. Simple, easy to understand instructions. Most religions add on: find meaning in God, find meaning in your family, etc. This makes a person's purpose in life so outlined. Yet in my opinion, it alone does not bring true fulfillment.
I'm a large subscriber to the existentialist line of thought that says that people must face a continual struggle to find purpose and meaning. This presents almost endless freedom of choice, because one can not accept as fact any external values, morality, or purpose. This freedom creates endless anguish but it can also bring invaluable pride and joy.
To me, religion seems like a short cut to find meaning. In response, many people who rely solely on religion to find meaning do not find any lasting comfort. This isn't saying that i think you can't be religious and still lead a meaningful life. I only mean that the unending exercise of one's complete freedom is a responsibilty and many people seem to use religion as a reason to shirk this responsiblity.
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posted
I suppose that I qualify as a person of science who is religious...though I haven't done much science outside of class. I'm still working on my Master's degree, and (Lord willing) will get it soon.
The strange thing about me is that I do not feel the emotions or have the experiences most people consider religion to be about. I never have. It just seems to me that existence requires a designer, and if there were no religions ready to give me details I would no doubt be working out some on my own.
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posted
Wow, Amanencer, way to simplify the religious life.
There may be some people who are happy with the simple answers, but for truly religious people, life is in fact a constant struggle to find truth in the way you believe and live. Simple faith is rarely simply acquired.
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posted
Me too, Kat. I hope no one ever mistakes my sometimes vehement disagreement with them for dislike.
Posts: 438 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote: Wow, Amanencer, way to simplify the religious life.
There may be some people who are happy with the simple answers, but for truly religious people, life is in fact a constant struggle to find truth in the way you believe and live. Simple faith is rarely simply acquired.
Amka, I realize that there is a great deal more to religion than what I stated. But I was speaking solely about the role of religion to provide a basic outline for meaning in life. Since you are apparently religious, do you not find that your religion offers you a guide to finding fulfillment? And that part of that fulfillment should come from your religion?
I guess I see the existential situation as finding yourself stuck in a forest with no concept of there being a right path to take, only that a path should be made. A person must discover for themselves which path is best for them. With every choice, a person moves further through the forest and grows a little spiritually. If they take a turn that they discover to of been a bad turn, don't worry, learn from your mistake and choose a good turn. The only point of the path is the path itself. Find what makes the path enjoyable and fulfilling to you, and do it.
Religion on the other hand, provides you with an objective you should reach and gives you directions on how to get there. This gives a precise meaning to the path: the objective. It doesn't mean that the path is going to be easy. Maybe it will be ten times harder than one that an existential hiker would make. The ease is not the issue, the meaning is. In one, the meaning is discovered and personal, in the other it is given and is a somewhat distant objective.
Yet, I'm not condoning religion. If you start going through the forest and find on your own personal path that there are others following the same path and who also have a long term objective, I see no problem with you joining them. I think that people should do whatever they find to be best for themselves. I think this gets tricky though because many accept the path and objective a religion and then work backwards mentally to explain why it is the best path.
To conclude my off-topic post: I believe people need to find out things for themselves. Religion can provide a way to circumvent the vital process of discovering your own path and meaning, yet this is only a pitfall of religion and does not neccesitate that the whole of it is wrong in any way.
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quote: If they take a turn that they discover to of been a bad turn, don't worry, learn from your mistake and choose a good turn. The only point of the path is the path itself. Find what makes the path enjoyable and fulfilling to you, and do it.
Why should we go down paths that other people have already found to be harmful?
People do need to think for themselves, but they don't need to reinvent what has already been learned. We have a hard enough time comprehending what is already known to be true without trying to rediscover it. This simply puts us farther down the path.
I am also opposed to "enjoy the path and do what feels good" approach. This can be a recipe for simply patting yourself on the back and feeling good about it. It is a shallow kind of spirituality. It requires very little effort other than focusing on how you feel. When one seeks fulfillment, you will never truly get it.
The journey is about truthfully assessing yourself against that inner voice that knows what is good and then more fully doing that. This isn't a one time occurance, but a lifetime process. This is not necessarily a comfortable thing to do. It has, at its foundation, an assumption that we are never good enough so that we must always improve.
Religion is not the easy way out. It is difficult on every level. We must do things we would rather not, and abstain from things we'd rather do. We must have a personal epiphany, or else anything we do is merely a rote exercise. We must measure our beliefs against our experience and knowledge constantly.
Let us imagine a path for real. We find ourselves in a meadow at the base of a mountain. Up the mountain are what appears to be several paths. Some may choose to linger in the meadow. It is pleasant in all ways, and the mountain is difficult, one can clearly see that. But others have been up that mountain and report that the peak holds a view that is magnificent. Why climb the mountain, when a tree can also get you up high? So some do that, and in doing so do get some added view. Others may feel that there must be an easier path, so they wander around, looking for something that is not quite so steep and strewn with fallen trees and rocks. And then there are the ones that look up, and know that all there is to do is climb. At the end they will probably have some scratches and bruises, and a few sore muscles. They may have fallen and tumbled down the mountain some and must make the choice again: stay here where it is pleasant, or go up? Or perhaps try to find an easier way. But if they persist in simply going up the mountain, eventually they will get to the peak and the incredible view that awaits. But what do they find at the end of that path? Not only is the view magnificent, but they are stronger and better than they'd ever been before.
I concede that there are many possibilities, but there really can only be one actuality. Knowing this, I am compelled to know what that is. And believing I have found that actuality, I am compelled to live by it. It is not one simple statement, that my religion is true, but consists of the sum of many statements: this must be true, and this, and this so that the sum of it is what becomes my religion. Others share it with me because we share many of the parts, which is what should happen given that there is only one actuality.
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