posted
What I find interesting is that Sauron's whole plan was based on the assumption that the Gods had abandoned the mortal world and he was free to conquer and do as he wanted. BUT, at the same time we are told time and time again, especially near the end, how Sauron was constantly nervous and twitchy....always looking for signs that the Valar might do something after all. The wind changes directions and he freaks out, wrapping his Dark Tower in fog and shadows, trying to shield himself.
And of course the Valar were in motion... just not in the way he saw them in the past. They sent the wizards, and they changed fate here and there...making the Ring fall into Bilbo's hands, sending the Eagles, and the strange "good luck" that many characters find themselves having. Sauron's failure was seeing the signs that the Powers of good were working against him, but denying that they really were signs. Never underestimate the power of denial. Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Iluvatar was sitting with the rest of the Ainur up in the Timeless Halls watching the world unfold. It was up to the Valar to actually run things. Kinda like the watchmaker theory of God, He makes it and then sits back and watches it go.
Besides, the Eagles are the chief servants of Manwe, Elder King of the Valar. And the winds and airs are his realm, so a wind change comes from his command.
[ May 14, 2004, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
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posted
This is very interesting. The point is made several times in the books that Sauron can't predict his enemies well because he lacks an understanding of pity and selfless acts. He sees the threat of the Ring that someone will take it and become strong enough to overthrow him. It's why he takes Aragorn's bait and fails to guard his land against Frodo and Sam.
It never occurs to him that they prefer no one take his place.
Of course, implicit in the strategy of the Ring is an acceptance of the risk that they might fail, that there are worse things to be avoided than being conquered and enslaved. It requires an amount of faith that is hard to comprehend.
posted
On a side note, I think OSC's discription of how Alvin Maker goes about altering reality is how the Valar and Angels go about running the physical laws of Creation. Not only are the Valar the very forces of nature, but they have personalities and awarness. Just like OSC's Jane. Able to be many many levels of attention to run all the aspects of say air or water.
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msquared, Iluvatar did that, but remember he also inserted a new theme... the theme of Humans who are NOT bound to the Music like others are to Fate. Thus Humans change the original Fate of the Universe...allowing for free will of the Valar and Elves.
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posted
Your take kind of reminds me about the old farmer and the flood.
A great flood was predicted by the weather buearu, and a sheriff went out to all the farms along the river warning them to pack up and move out until the waters go down.
One farmer, Eli, sat on his front porch and scoffed. "I am a God fear'n man. I put my trust in God. He shall protect me."
The sherrif went away.
The rains came.
The waters rose.
Soon they were lapping at his front porch. His neighbor comes by in a rowboat.
"Climb in Eli. There is worse a com'n."
"Bah" says Eli. "I am a God fear'n man. I place my trust in God to protect me."
The neighbor floats away.
And the rains keep coming.
Eli moves into his house, but the rains keep a coming.
Soon Eli is forced up onto the roof of his house. All his possesions are floating away. His cattle are swimming for the shore. Suddenly a bright light shines upon Eli. It is a helicopter from the national gaurd.
"Sir" comes a voice from the helicopters loud speaker. "Sir, we will drop you a rope. Can you climb up to safety?"
Eli stood atop the roof and waved the helicopter away. "I am a God fear'n man. I don't need no Helicopter. I put my faith in God to save me."
For ten long minutes the men in the helicopter tried to convice Eli to climb on up. But Eli laughed. He trusted in God to save him.
Then there was a rumble. Eli's house gave up its fight against the water. It was torn apart, and with it Eli fell.
Eli awoke in heaven. It was perfect. It was beautiful. It was everything that Eli expected and more.
"You look confused," said God looking to Eli.
"I am confused. God, I put all my faith in you, yet you let me die."
"Let you die?" asked God. "I didn't let you die. First I sent the Sheriff, then I sent the boat, and finally I sent the Helicopter."
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Yah, that's a good one. Although when I learned the story at my Catholic school it was a woman, not a man. Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I imagine that Tolkein, like Lewis, was a big believer in a God who delegates. I know Lewis was of the opinion that a lot of the mythological gods were actually beings like the Maiar (sp?) and Valar who we mistakenly came to worship... e.g. that Neptune was actually some angelic power who was responsible for the sea, etc.
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posted
Assuming quantum mechanics worked in the Tolkienverse as it does here (which is a reasonable assumption, since it is supposed to be a pre-historical mythology of England and Western Europe) then Illuvatar (and possible the Ainur and Valar as well) could influence things moment by moment very easily. There is a constant background of random quantum fluctuations going on at the very lowest level. This fact, coupled with the butterfly effect, which describes how small scale fluctuations can bubble up into macro scale results, give the gods the power to nudge events constantly in the ways they desire. Note that Morgoth too would have such power, but perhaps the chaining involves suppressing his ability to use it.
This means that structures such as brains, which are specially suited to allow small scale events to have large scale effects, would be a major pathway of the wishes of the gods into fruition in the material world of Middle Earth. So look for things like dreams and visions to be hints from the gods. Sam's sudden thought of the stars when he could not find Frodo in the tower, for instance, and his decision to sing. No doubt, Galadriel's mirror is a device which allows something similar to happen to the waking mind.
Though it's not particularly prominent in Middle Earth, this also shows how events which maximize the effects of random chance, such as dice throws and tea leaves, could potentially offer easy ways for the gods to make things known to those to whom they wish to speak, through tiny changes in initial conditions bubbling upward to larger scale effects.
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posted
Well, Sauron (probably) thought he was free from direct intervention from the Valar-like the intervention that broke Angband, for instance, with Elves flooding out of Valinor to help overthrow it, and Earendil coming down from the sky with Primal Light to smite dragons as well.
But he had studied history, so to speak, so he knew that the Valar-together or seperately-had a habit of working subtly to help the Noldor and some Men. I think Sauron knew the Wizards for what they were. Why wouldn't he? He believed he could handle them, and he had some good reason to believe that.
I don't think the Ring's fate was changed by the Valar, though-that was almost certainly Eru. Nor is Eru forever remote-sometimes he took a direct hand. For instance, in remaking Arda to destroy Numenor. To permit the Naugrim to be infused with self-awareness.
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Yes, but Iluvatar only acted when the Valar begged him to interfere. And even then it wasn't actually Iluvatar doing anything, he just gave permission and power to the Valar to bring about the Change. Of course, even Tolkien is a little vague on this in his letters....
posted
I just have been reading the letters and I thought Iluvatar did the changing of the world into a sphere, and the foundering of Numenor. But now that you say that, I'm not positive. I will have to reread.
Tolkien had a recurring dream of a huge wave towering up and drowning everything. Christopher Tolkien, his youngest son, also had that dream. That is the source of the Akallabeth, the foundering of Numenor. (He drew also from the Atlantis legend, of course.)
Several times now in the letters he has said that this stuff came to him as though it were being discovered rather than invented. That he would get stuck at some part, and have to wait until it was shown to him what happened next. I wonder if this is true for all writers, or all really good writers, or what?
Do you work and try and train and arrange your life so that the inspiration when it comes, has fertile ground in which to flower? Is the discipline of writing just a setting up of the necessary conditions to receive inspiration and have it work its way into a form that is accessible to the world?
I have a feeling about LotR that it is scripture of a sort. There is something very true about it, like scriptures. Tolkien did feel early on that his group of undergraduate friends were going to be used by God to do some important work. About his book he never did see it as anything but a story of a sort that he wanted very badly to read but nobody was writing them so they must (the inklings) write them themselves, though a very tedious business it was. I believe C.S. Lewis said that, and Tolkien quoted him.
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Iknow I am now just commenting on the movei, but how comes Sauron could "see" Frodo all over middle earth, yet when frodo hides behind a stone, the Great Eye Spotlight, can not see him?
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He could search him out and find him only while he wore the ring. But Frodo had a feeling that he was seeking for him always, which he was. As he got closer to Mordor, he saw the red eye in a circle of fire, searching for him. It grew in his mind. His first instinct was always to cower and hide, when aware of the eye, yet rocks would not hide him. Gathering his courage and taking off the ring (against the will of Sauron and the Nazgul) would.
I forget exactly how that scene went in the movie, but it was for sure not the rocks that hid him from Sauron's gaze. Sauron was never more than vaguely aware of Frodo the whole time, until the end when he put on the ring and claimed it for his own at the cracks of doom. Then was his folly revealed to him, and his true danger, for the first time.
[ May 16, 2004, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: ak ]
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