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Author Topic: Care and feeding of human beings
Bob_Scopatz
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Question: Which is better:

1) Telling a friend in no uncertain terms that you think they are making a mistake and should rethink their entire life.

or

2) Being happy for a friend and expressing unending support for that person throughout their journey in life?

Or, is this another one of those "it depends" things?

Are there things SO important that you feel you MUST do #1, even at the risk of losing a friend? If so, what sorts of things are that important? (e.g., you know the friend is about to marry a crack addict who's only after a green card versus you think your friend is far too fond of the color pink).

Anyway, what is the best way to be a friend to another human being?

Oh, and by the way, I think this has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with being "honest" or not. I think about it a different way. #1 may FEEL honest (it's all charged with postive POWER and feels like you are stating your opinion boldly, etc.). But the real question is should we stop ourselves from that instantaneous blurting of a thought and work at achieving #2? Which would then be the honest reaction -- you would be truly happy for the person and supportive...

So, both are honest, or could be if we take the time. Assuming that's the case, which is better?

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pooka
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I would only do 1 in a case where it directly affects me. Otherwise it would be a violation of the boundaries I like to respect with my friends. It would be a different matter if I were their parent.
edit quasi snarkiness

[ May 22, 2004, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: pooka ]

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ElJay
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Is there a middle ground? For instance:

3) Expressing some concern about a choice but reassuring the friend that you will support them fully if that's the choice they decide to make? "I want to make sure you've considered X, but if you've thought this through and have decided it's the right thing for you, then I'm with you 100%."

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mr_porteiro_head
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Well, this makes me think of my situation with my brother. I have no doubt in my mind that he knows that I think his life is not headed in a good direction, but I have never said it "in no uncertain terms". Over the years, I continue to encougage/invite him to do things that I think will help him or change his direction. So far, it hasn't been effective, but I keep trying. But I try hard to not push too hard.

Maybe it's different because he's my brother. You can lose a friend, but you cannot lose a brother -- you can just alienate him. That's not good.

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pooka
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I actually have this problem with my husband, and I think I'll second the idea that there must be a better way, somewhere between black and white, all or nothing.

P.S. I'm thinking more about this "being happy for and expressing support" and it reminds me of something I read when I was running a concordance of "endure" in the Bible yesterday. Something like it is no big deal to endure trials that you brought upon yourself, but it is "thankworthy" to endure things that ain't your fault.

I'd apply this by saying it's no big deal to support someone in a decision you yourself would have made. But it is thankworthy to support someone in a decision whose wisdom is not transparent at this time. What does support mean if it is only given with wholehearted agreement?

[ May 22, 2004, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: pooka ]

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Farmgirl
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I think it also depends some on age/maturity.

In other words, I would probably never speak up if the person was older than I, because I don't feel it would be my place to tell another adult how to live.

But I guess it truly is one of the "it depends" things -- because as I write this, I can think of times I have spoken to friends when they were, like, suffering from alcoholism, or cheating on their spouse, and let them know that they are destroying themselves, and that I care too much for them to ignore it or not mention it.

In some cases, you have to say "they are an adult and are entitled to make their own choices", but in other cases, if you are really a close friend, and you two talk about all the deep things of life, I don't think it is wrong to say how you PERCEIVE their choice to be affecting them and others around them.

I don't think I'd ever say (to an adult) "you are wrong to do this" because it would make them defensive. But more -- "I have had some concerns about XXX since you made XXX decision." So it is showing how you are feeling from the outside.

Farmgirl

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Bob_Scopatz
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Hi ElJay! [Wave]

So, you all say that the middle ground is maybe best.

Or is it?

I mean, aren't you qualifying your support for the person when you do so? Well, maybe not... I don't know. Certainly it is an attempt to keep the peace while still expressing your concerns and not keeping things bottled up.

I guess we all live our lives in that middle ground most of the time.

But humor me here. I think the middle ground by trying to do both #1 and #2 really does neither. It doesn't give the person your full support and it usually requires one to leave much unsaid. A nice compromise (as we've said), but does it work out best?

I think, for example, that when I do that sort of thing, there's unfinished business and I need "others" to talk to in order to take up the slack. By that I mean that I express my worries to 3rd parties because I can't come right out and say it to the person I'm concerned about.

And, really, I'm not 100% supportive of them, whatever decision they make.

Maybe there's no choice if we're to remain both sane and connected to the world.

But maybe we're in a habit of taking the middle ground?

I know I've been that way sometimes.

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pooka
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I guess there are two roads less traveled, then. Where do they each lead?

P.S. I'm reading that you feel the middle ground would be a cop out, but I think our brains can only perceive of the possibilities that lie at the limits of what we know ourselves to typically do. If you walk on what you percieve to be the horizon, a new horizon will open up before you.

[ May 22, 2004, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]

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xnera
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Yes, there are times when #1 is better.

I'm kinda in that situation now. I was fired from my last two jobs, and am unemployed with no money coming in. My finances are shot to heck. Because of this, my family feels like they have the permission to be blunt with me. Which I totally understand, because my position *is* so lousy that it looks as destructive as the life of an achoholic would be.

That being said, I think there is a way to say #1 in a loving manner without necessarily taking the middle ground.

My mom cares and worries about me a great deal. The last time I was unemployed, she nearly had a breakdown on the phone one night because she was so stressed out over my situation. That's her perogative, if she wants to worry that much.

Her way of speaking to me sometimes, though, can be hurtful, even though I know she is just trying to shown her concern. When I mention my finances are getting low, she will say things like "Of course you have no money," not in a compassionate, that's-gotta-be-tough manner, but more like a disappointed and judging manner. I feel hurt and defensive when she does this. And she will often say things like "What are we going to do about this?" Which, again, shows that she is trying to help, but I feel like she is trying to solve my problems for me. I just feel like less of an individual when she does this.

Now, compare this to my older sister. Jennifer and I are not very close; never have been. We only speak to each other at family holidays, and then it's mostly polite conversation.

A couple of months back, she wrote me a letter that was very hard for me to read because of the truth that was in it. She talked about how she felt about my situation, how it was affecting the family, and what she would do if she were me. But I never got the impression that she was lecturing, or trying to hurt me, but that she honestly cared about me and wanted to make sure I knew exactly what I had gotten myself into.

Then she went on to say she had taken the liberty of investigating some state services for me, and gave me the phone numbers. But after that, it was up to me to take the next step.

I read her letter, and I cried, not only because of the hard truths in it, but because I felt loved and cared about. I felt like she thought I was still capable of taking care of myself, and that even though I had made mistakes, she trusted me to make the right decisions in the future. I felt lifted up, rather than torn down. I will always, always treasure her letter for not only showing me the truth, but also by doing it in a loving manner.

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Teshi
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I always make sure my friends know what I think, but if they want to do something that I think is not perhaps the best decision, and they won't listen to anything else, I'll back them up in such a way that will cause the least harm to them.

Mostly, that ends up being an ear.

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Corwin
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I start with the assumption that you want to help your friend. So then, if you tell him he has made a mistake, and you make him defensive, does it really help ? I mean, if you're able to make him understand and also feel that he has made a mistake, that's one thing. But if you think that by saying the things you want to say you'll just alienate your friend, what's that good for ?! He might, at some time, think of the words you said to him and discover the truth in them, but if he doesn't ?

On the other hand, "being happy" for someone doesn't work just by wishing it. If you think that his decision is wrong, you're most probably not going to be happy with the situation, but you're still going to consider him a friend.

What makes a friend different from others is that you care for him even if he has done something that's awful in your eyes. You felt one time that he's worthy of your affection, and if that affection is strong enough, it will surpass the disagreement. I know, it has happened to me many times, both ways - with me on the "right" and the "wrong" side.

And all this talk reminds me of a passage from Dune, when Gurney wrongfuly thinks Jessica is the traitor and wants to kill her. And Paul says:

quote:
I swear this to you by the love I hold for you, a love I will still hold even after I leave you dead on this floor.
As for the age difference, Farmgirl, I'm afraid I can't agree with you on that one. People still make mistakes when they're adults, as when they're young, and they can also be right - both young and mature people. The main difference with adults is not that they have more experience; it's that they are far less willing to learn new things, because of their so-called experience. Maybe I'm a little to harsh now; maybe it's also due to all the rutine of life. But I hate it when my parents don't take advice from me. For them I'm still a child. In their vision I'm "inteligent and can do anything", except when it comes to listening to me, they don't. Oh well...

quote:
I just feel like less of an individual when she does this.
Xnera, I totaly relate to that ! During the last four years I've been at a university in France, so there's not much they can do to help me besides with money and good thoughts. But they still need to feel like they can do much more than this. Well, from time to time I don't want them to ! This year I probably hit an all time low in school, but heck!, it's my life, my doing, my problem, and sometimes I need to hit the wall, head first, and then make everything right on my own. I'll stop here I think, before derailing the thread [Smile]
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pooka
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I try not to go out of my comfort zone to let someone else know that they are out of my comfort zone. I used to think that would be the very definition of love and friendship, but I'm trying to be less codependent these days.
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Wussy Actor
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I've always used this as sort of a litmus test for my friendships. I have a small circle of very close friends that I would absolutely feel comfortable telling, tactfully of course, that I thought they were making a mistake. I would also expect them to do the same for me. That has always sort of defined my inner circle of friends. As for other people with whom I am not as close, it depends on the situation, and whether or not I feel they respect me enough for me telling them to be helpful.
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punwit
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I'm going to second the policy put forth by Wussy Actor. The two friends I consider lifelong, do anything for friends I would feel comfortable telling or hearing from them on matters that are personal and charged with emotion.

I have other friends that I care deeply for but do not share the same level of comfort that I do with the first group I mentioned. This group falls into the depends category. If my opinion is solicited I would respond forthrightly and if I had reservations I would make that known. If my opinion wasn't solicited I think I would avoid expressing any reservations I might have.

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peter the bookie
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Gosh, I don't think anyone needs to ask where I fall on this one. [Big Grin]
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Elizabeth
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"I think the middle ground by trying to do both #1 and #2 really does neither. It doesn't give the person your full support and it usually requires one to leave much unsaid. A nice compromise (as we've said), but does it work out best?"

I don't see the two as separate, necessarily. I think I can give my friends(the really good ones)feedback that they might not want to hear, but respect that they might not follow the advice. In a good friendship, it is implied that I will give them my love and support even if i don't agree with what they are doing.(as long as it not something really drastic.)

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TomDavidson
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The trouble I see with #1 is that one is unable to give a friend unbiased and unattached advice. You have to be respectful in letting them know that you believe there are other options that they are not considering and ask them to think about them, especially if you are in a position of counsel with said friend. This can be difficult to do without offending, but I agree that it is necessary to be heard when you have legitimate concerns. I also agree with Xnera, though, that the approach and timing you take to this is of the ultimate importance.

My take is that you should be a supportive counsel to your friends, but not specifically give them "solutions" or "advice." Present a different perspective for them to consider and leave it at that.

For example, when it is very clear that you have arrived at a different conclusion then they have, it is out of bounds to keep pushing your opinion or expressing your disappointment and concern. Ultimately, it is not your decision to make and your friendship should take precedence.

Edit: This is Christy, logged on as Tom -- Sorry!

[ May 22, 2004, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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Elizabeth
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"the approach and timing you take to this is of the ultimate importance. "

Yes! Also, I think that if this is a very close friend, you would know if giving the advice was even worth it. You would know when to push and when to hold back. They, in turn, will usually know what you think of the whole business.

So, there really is a lot of unspoken communication that goes on between numbers 1 and 2. Sometimes, a person just needs to talk, and it is your job as a friend to listen, no more, no less.

OK, apparently I have, like sixty answers to your question, Bob. Sorry.

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beverly
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I'm with Teshi. You can come out and explain all your concerns and reservations. Once it is said, you let them know that no matter what they choose, you love them and you will be there for them to listen and support. I remember a time in my life when I was being really stupid. Some of my friends tried to tell me what I was doing was wrong. And when I didn't listen to them, they kept trying to send that message. Being immature, I distanced myself from them. I felt I could not talk to them, because they would just judge me and tell me I was wrong.

I had another friend who was very clear about her disapproval, but also listened non-judgementally. She didn't try to "beat it into my head" because she knew me well enough to know that wouldn't work. Our friendship is the one that survived that time. In fact, if it weren't for her, I don't know that I would have made it through to be where I am today. *shudder*

I had a friend recently who did something I thought was foolish. I kindly told her all my concerns, then let her know that the choice was hers and it wouldn't change our friendship. I let her know that I would always be there for her. We are still friends.

Sometimes remaining friends is not possible. But when it is, it means that they have a support when they need it. I don't know where I would be if it weren't for that friend of mine who knew not to alienate me.

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ak
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This is so hard to do. It may be the hardest thing in the world to watch people you love making disasterous choices. I feel for parents of teenagers.

The first principle is free agency. That's more important than anything else at all. The choice is theirs and not yours. That needs to be kept foremost in mind at all times.

But if you are close to someone (not a casual acquaintence) or (in certain cases) if you are in the habit of mothering people (whether they invite it or not) ( [Smile] ), you may explain that this is a poor choice because of these reasons. Now the most important thing in doing this is that you not expect that they will change their mind, or their behavior, because of your advice. Unsolicited advice is nearly always a complete waste of breath and trouble, however, quite often the love you bear for someone makes you unable to contain yourself.

But what can happen, and it's really surprising to me... what can happen when someone knows you care about them truly, and they know you think a certain course of action is unwise.... that can exert an influence over them which may over time have a real effect. You have no right to expect it to have any effect. But sometimes it will.

And it does take many repetitions to learn things. For children my recipe is to (always calmly) explain cause and effect. That this action leads to these results. Perhaps not immediately or always but eventually and probably. You say it again and again, each time it comes up. Then, naturally, they do the opposite anyway. Sooner or later the expected bad result occurs. THEN your teaching may hit home. Because they might say, "hey, yeah, I decided to do A and then B followed, just like mama said." Had you not said this to them over and over again they would likely not make the connection.

Children need lessons to be repeated many times, always with patience, and never necessarily expecting that they will obey or learn. Always with the understanding that their own experience will be what truly teaches them, and in any case their own choices are what decides their behavior. (Very young children obviously need to be physically restrained from very dangerous behavior.)

Adult friends need concerns to be voiced, and to know you care regardless. The same concerns can be repeated again when the situation comes up. But they need to be stated always in such a way that it is clear you expect them to do what they think is best, regardless. And that you only speak because you care, and it's hard for you to watch them suffer needlessly.

And always the advising person needs to keep in mind that they could be totally and altogether wrong. Nobody knows what it's like to be someone else. They are the ones who know what it's like to be them, so they are the only ones who can decide things like what profession they want to follow, whom they want to marry, what religion they want to be, and so on.

[ May 22, 2004, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: ak ]

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ak
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If you are on the receiving end of unsolicited advice, the best thing to do is to thank the person, and then go ahead and do what you think is right.

I remember one time being completely flabbergasted when a guy at the pool in the lane next to me stopped me from my laps and started telling me all sorts of pointers on form and stuff. I was a great deal taken aback, wondering what made him think I wanted his help. Then I remembered all the unsolicited advice I had given in my life, and realized that all of it was good, so I decided to listen to what he had to say and give it a try. <laughs>

[ May 22, 2004, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: ak ]

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pooka
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quote:
Edit: This is Christy, logged on as Tom -- Sorry!

[ROFL]

While I'm reading it at first, it doesn't scream "Not Tom!" but with hindsight, it is funny.

I wonder if lacking (as I do) the gift of direct but loving bluntness, can it ever be developed? How does on go about practicing this artform?

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Elizabeth
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Pooka,

I think it can.
When I was younger, I never gave negative feedback. Working with kids with conduct disorders for many years made it easier for me. These are kids who need social interactions modeled for them, yet they end up being better at giving feedback in a respectful way than many adults I know. I also see it in my nine year-old daughter, who has no problem telling me off in a way that is very clear, polite, and to the heart of the matter.("Mom, I know you worked hard to make this baked macaroni and cheese, but I prefer the box kind.")(grr)

I think what is HARDER to develop is taking the feedback. For me, anyway.

One thing the therapists always taught us is "I statements." "When I see you doing that thing, it makes me feel uncomfortable and worried for you." Instead of, "How could you be so stupid?"

It sounds wicked corny, but in the long run, it works.

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katharina
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quote:

Edit: This is Christy, logged on as Tom -- Sorry!

Okay, the world makes sense again.

Christy, I completely agree with you.

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Papa Moose
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Bob, whatever you decide to say to your friend, I totally support you.

--Pop

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Bob_Scopatz
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quote:
Edit: This is Christy, logged on as Tom -- Sorry!
All I can say is I'm glad I'm no longer trying to match Tom's post count or this would really cheese me off! Now he's got mobs of people working in shifts just to keep his SN in there!.

[Razz]

Okay, I have to jump back in here. When I first started this thread I was going to post a message to Mack to let her know that this WASN'T about her. I started thinking about it because of something she said in her thread about losing a friend because of her decision to join the LDS, but this is NOT some passive attempt on my part to send Jamie a message of disapproval. I meant what I said about being happy for ANYONE who makes advances in their spiritual quest for knowledge.

But I should've known that Hatrackers are quick to make connections and so I should've posted that message. But I didn't. Mack, I hope you weren't thinking I was sending you some message with this thing.

Your situation with your friend just bugged me and I wondered what I would want my friends to do if they really hated a choice I'd made. And then, what would I do if I really hated a choice that a friend had made...

Wow, talk about derailing ones own thread!
[Roll Eyes]

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Elizabeth
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"All I can say is I'm glad I'm no longer trying to match Tom's post count or this would really cheese me off! Now he's got mobs of people working in shifts just to keep his SN in there!."

Bob's statement translated into "I Statement:"

"Christy, when you posted as Tom in my thread, it made me feel worried that, perhaps, he was using you to boost his own post count."

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Bob_Scopatz
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quote:
Bob, whatever you decide to say to your friend, I totally support you.
[ROFL]

Pop, get a:
a) haircut
b) job
c) life
d) vasectomy

How'd you know this thread was about you?

JUST KIDDING!!!
[Razz]

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romanylass
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I am in this situation with a friend. Briefly she divorced her husband b/c she "wasn't happy" and he "worked too much" ( whatever). They have two kids Is already planning to date an old flame before the papers are filed. Files papers, openly dates old flame for 6 months, plans to move i with and have babies with old flame...then suddenly dumps him on her birthday. Less than a week later she has a date planned with an older guy ( She just turned 26). I try to tell her, several times along the way, that she is making a mistake, but she doesn't even HEAR. I am not sure she is talking to me now. I am not sure she did any good, but I could not just support her choices, KWIM?
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TomDavidson
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When my friend Morris cheated on his wife of three years after the birth of their second child and temporarily moved out to pursue his new flame, who was ALSO married, our conversation went like this, "You're being a selfish, boneheaded idiot. It might make you happy, Morris, but it makes the rest of us completely, unambiguously ill."
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fallow
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Tom,

what happened to Morris?

fallow

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Farmgirl
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Bob,

I guess when it all comes down to it, it finally comes down to the simple "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Think about your friend. Put yourself in your friends position mentally. Then decide how you would want them (your friend) to talk to you (if you were the one making the decision you currently think is a mistake).

And then handle accordingly.

Farmgirl

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Bob_Scopatz
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Yes! That's a good point. The golden rule is something I know I forget when faced with these "VERY IMPORTANT" opinions that I want to express.

Thanks!

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TomDavidson
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"what happened to Morris?"

He figured out after a month and a half that he was being stupid and shallow and selfish, went back to his wife, and is doing fairly well in a slightly more fulfilling line of work.

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Ralphie
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Morris is lucky she took him back.
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mackillian
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Bob--I figured.

As for my answer...I want honest, but I also want that friendship still.

I mean, I expected this friend to be in opposition. I expected verbal conflict. However, I expected in within the caring bounds of friendship, and instead it was severed quickly and harshly.

Other opposition I respect. "I care for you, but I'm not comfortable with it." "I care for you, but I have concerns." I can understand that, and I would expect nothing less of my friends to let me know about a spiritual piece of lettuce in my teeth.

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TomDavidson
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Ralphie, yes, he is. When he moved out, she "helped" him take some of his stuff out of the house -- and then, while his stereo equipment and mixing board were lying on the driveway, backed over them four or five times with the van.
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mackillian
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[Eek!]
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Ralphie
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Good girl.

I mean, not totally mature and healthy, but the next best thing.

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Xaposert
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I would be a pretty bad friend if I let my friend do something terrible just in order to protect my own relationship with them. It would be wrong to lie to them and feign agreement with them.

But then again, there's such a thing as politics - and putting ideas in such a way that it doesn't destroy a relationship. To me, that's just a matter of making them understand my complete position: After all, I think they are wrong and possibly foolish, but I consider myself equally fallible, and thus don't imply and disrespect when I offer my own opinion. Quite to the contrary, I think the disrespectful thing would be to presume they are wrong and yet could not see that they were wrong if it was pointed out. It would be a great disrespect to withhold one's opinion.

People don't always get it, though. Sometimes people, especially adults, think they are too good for advice. There's not much you can do about that.

EDIT: And no, #2 is not honest, in the way you mean in this thread. It will always entail intentionally giving off the impression that you agree with something when you don't. It may be true that you want to support someone, but it still ain't true that you think what they are doing is good, yet you will have to feign belief that it is.

[ May 23, 2004, 02:18 AM: Message edited by: Xaposert ]

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Bob_Scopatz
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quote:
...let me know about a spiritual piece of lettuce in my teeth.
That's a great image. Can I use it?

[ROFL]

[Big Grin] <---- checking for lettuce

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Elizabeth
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I loved that one, too, but not as much as mooning the religion train. Ha ha.
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pooka
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bump
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blacwolve
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This is something I've been struggling with a lot recently, both in regards to myself and other people.

Recently I left my church and my faith. There were a number of reasons, all of them off topic here. I had two really good friends at church, both of whom were very concerned for me when I stopped coming to church. I've talked to both of them several times since, promised to do lots of things I have no intention of doing, just because they wouldn't leave me alone if I didn't. Neither of them know that I have "converted" to agnosticism. I'm quite sure they wouldn't stay friends with me if they did know. I'm also scared I would be excommunicated if anyone from my churh found out, which would just be very messy. I hate it that I'm lying to everyone, but I can't see any other way of doing things. I just want to wait this out until I leave for college and can't be excommunicated anymore.

I'm not even sure I would be excommunicated; but since someone from my church was recently excommunicated for eloping with a Christian guy who her parents thought was too "effeminate" I'm not exactly filled with hope at my chances.

I'm sorry if this is slightly off topic, it's the first thing that pops into my mind on this subject.

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BannaOj
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*hugs blacwolve*
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Kwea
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I have had to do both, and it sucked.

The word politics has a negative connotation to it now, but it really isn't a bad thing. It is a way for people to make these kinds of situations more bearable, to be able to express these types of opinions while still maintaining friendships and relationships.

I have learned that not only do others ignore unsolicited advice, but that I tend to ignore it when it is offered to me as well! I get out of sorts a bit when someone sticks their nose in my business, as if they had the right to determine what is best for me.

I have no problems if the person involved is a close family member, usually, but even that can stick in my craw a bit. Certain friends have become family of sorts as well, and they have the right to say whatever they think. Doesn't mean that I will obey their wishes, but I will try to listen.

If what you are commenting on will affect you too, then I will listen. Otherwise, stay out of my business.

So I try to apply the same standard to my tendencies to give advice as well. If I won't be affected directly then I am wary of offering advice, unless asked. If I see a close friend self-destructing, then I express my concerns and hope that they will consider what I said.

I had a friend that got engaged to a woman who was a real piece of work. She was very manipulative, and was always trying to distance him from the rest of his friends. I understood that people change, but some of the changes were just too much to bear, so I talked to him about it. I asked him if he was sure that he was with the person that was right for him, and he replied "I know I love her.".
So I dropped it, and for a while we weren't really close, not the way we had been. He knew how I felt about it, and that was the best I could do. I had to respect his choice, even though she was a horrible person.

She began acting even more strange, and finally they broke up. My friend was bitter for a while, and wondered out loud why no one had warned him that she didn't love him the same way he loved her.

Then he looked at me, and didn't say another word.

I had told him, and if I hadn't I wouldn't have been able to live with my self, to call him a friend. I also to this day have never said "I told you so", and I never will. I wish I had been wrong, to tell you the truth.

So I guess it depends on how much you care, and how tactfully you say it, if you do. Just remember to respect the other persons right to decide.

And if you can't live with their decision, then leave them alone to live with the results, and pray you are wrong.

Kwea

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sndrake
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(Taking a deep breath)

I think that I don't have a consistent rule. There are too many variables.

I do know this, though. As a friend, I would take care to communicate my concern in private rather than in public.

Does that make sense to anybody else?

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Kwea
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Makes sense to me.

When my friend broke up with Margret all his friends told him that they knew she was wrong for him, and that it wouldn't last. I agreed with them about her, but for my friends sake wouldn't take part in bashing her in public.

My friend thanked me for that, and for supporting him even when I didn't care for his choice.....it was a few years after the fact, but is one of the most important conversations I have ever had with him, and one of the reasons we are still so close.

It's not being deceptive, it's respecting other autonomy and decisions. I was always polite to her despite her poor attitude toward me, and only fought with her once that I remember even though she was always looking for a reason to scrap with me (or any of his friends). Then she would blame him for siding with us not her, even though she was making unreasonable demands.

I just spent less and less time with them, and when he asked why I told him. In private.

Kwea

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pooka
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Hey, blacwolve. I hope things work out for you.

Promises are weird things. I married someone who basically said "I won't ever promise anything". I mean, in order to get married their are certain things one agrees to. But what is the binding power of a promise, in the end?

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TMedina
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To weigh in with my two bits:

1. It depends on the person
2. It depends on the circumstance
3. It depends on what you are willing to do, endure or sacrifice

With one of my best friends, he's seen me through some of the darkest parts of my life and never judged me for it. He's told me when he thought I was making a mistake and usually, he was right. But he always told me that he'd support me, no matter what choice I made.

It would be more helpful to understand the circumstance and relationship with the person this thread was spawned over, but all of the advice thus far have been honest and truthful.

Tactful or Blunt? Some people respond to one better than the other - you have to judge their response and how they will respond to hear it from you. As headstrong and as obsessive as I am, a little bluntness helps. But you need to explain your reasoning beyond, "Dude, that's stupid."

One piece of advice not yet offered -> make sure you are viewing the situation objectively and not making a decision infuenced by your own biases and dislikes. What works for you may not be the best course of action for someone else. "Mandy, those white curtains are just tacky! I mean really..."

-Trevor

-

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