posted
Tonight A&E had a special on polygamy in the United States. Did anyone else see this? It did not only talk about Mormon polygamists but others too. I felt that they really tried to present both sides of the polygamy issue, but after the program all I have to say is wow wow wow wow wow. Polygamy does not sound anywhere near as much fun as I once thought. It sounds horrible.
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posted
That's why many of those earlier Mormons who believed they were commanded to do such saw it as a sacrifice and a burden, and not as a Happy Joy Joy Harem.
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posted
What are you talking about, Pro? You just don't understand how respectful and meaningful and equal-opportunity it was for all those people!
quote:That's why many of those earlier Mormons who believed they were commanded to do such saw it as a sacrifice and a burden, and not as a Happy Joy Joy Harem.
Yeah, I'm sure all those poor men just suffered and suffered with all those wives. Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Justa -- I am sure that it was a hardship for many of those men and women. It's certainly nothing I would be be happy about having to deal with.
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posted
What's wrong with polygamy? Just think...all those women to make us sandwiches....mmmmmm...sandwiches...*droool*.
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First off, the initial revulsion so many display at the mention of polygamy is almost entirely a cultural phenomenon- there is nothing inherently bad or exploitative about polygamy anymore than there is about monogamy. The biggest problem with implementing such a system in the US, then, is the cultural resistance to the thing which all the participants will have to a greater or lesser degree. Obviously polygamy as a marital system would have a unique set of challenges including economic viability and emotional stability. However, it would also allow a much greater range of flexibility in division of labor as well as supplying a larger labor pool upon which to draw in order to achieve familial goals.
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In order to examine the matter objectively one must refer to the principle reasons of the existence of marriage. Chief among those reasons is to provide a stable economic and emotionally supported platform for raising children. In a polygamous family there is a lot more flexibility around who can do what tasks. For example, assuming the husband is the primary breadwinner you could still have all the benefits of a "stay at home mom" raising the children AND have a working mother helping the family economically.
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If the family is choosing to limit the number of children, then resources per child may rise. If the family is having the same number of children with each wife that they would otherwise, then the resources per person in the family will be reduced.
Let's say each iwfe has 4 children. In a 3-wife family, that would be 12 children, with 4 grownups, or 3 per grownup. In a traditional couple with three children, there would be 1.5 children per grownup.
posted
Dag- good point. Of course, part of the question is also how much individual attention each child gets. In a polygamous family that raises the children jointly a child may get a lot more one-on-one attention if, for example, two women are involved in the child-rearing.
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posted
AIRY TALE FOR WOMEN OF THE 21st CENTURY Once upon a time, in a land far away, a beautiful, independent, self-assured princess happened upon a frog as she sat, contemplating ecological issues on the shores of an unpolluted pond in a verdant meadow near her castle. The frog hopped into the princess' lap and said: Elegant Lady, I was once a handsome prince, until an evil witch cast a spell upon me. One kiss from you, however, and I will turn back into the dapper, young prince that I am and then, my sweet, we can marry and setup housekeeping in your castle with my mother, where you can prepare my meals, clean my clothes, bear my children, and forever feel grateful and happy doing so. That night, as the princess dined sumptuously on a repast of lightly salted frog legs seasoned in a white wine and onion cream sauce, she chuckled and thought to herself: I don't f-ing think so.
Three cheers for being born in a better time.
[ July 19, 2004, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: Kasie H ]
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posted
Incidentally, Kasie, what do you have against
Marriage Marriage to an attractive mate REALLY Traditional family lifestyle (extended relatives living near or with you) Housekeeping Marital Happiness
Oh, I see- that whole cooking and cleaning thing. . . You modern girls don't like those. And HAPPINESS! Heaven forbid you should be happy. . . Evanescence would lose a fortune.
posted
If having a woman do my laundry and cooking and cleaning while having limited mobility and rights is what "traditional marrital happiness" is, then I'd rather have the horrible sharing of duties and responsibilities and rights that the modern world allows, thank you.
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posted
Maybe if the princess hadn't met such an arrogant frog they would have lived happily ever after.
He really could have been a little more subtle.
I wonder how she would have prepared him if he'd suggested that she join the four other wives in the castle whom he'd already wed?
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posted
You kidding? They would have fought over who got the biggest leg, and then been bitter about who didn't get the biggest leg for the next twenty years.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I have felt frustrated by the feminist ideal that women can be whatever they want to be because they are free and strong, but if they choose to stay at home, they are choosing to be oppressed and are undoing the work of the feminists of the last fifty-odd years. And if, Heaven forbid, we admit that we LIKE it, then we're brainwashed.
That said, I'm finding that I'm a feminist more and more each day. I just think it goes overboard sometimes. When it becomes less about equality and more about getting back what "men took away", then it's wrong.
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posted
The thing is, both feminism and the "traditional" camp have a glaring lack of choice and options. Polygamy had even less choice. That is what I'm contending with. If I had a wife who wanted to stay at home, this does not mean I can't still share household chores or responsibilities with her. Staying at home doesn't equate to sitting on her keister all day, for sure. But I won't relegate someone to doing specific tasks because they are a certain gender or are a husband or wife. No matter what arguments are made, that is how they "traditionally" did it, without question. In polygamous marriages, the delegation of position went even further. So no thank you, I'd prefer a marriage where it is two people of equal standing and importance, who each have equal say in how things work.
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As long as those choices are there. Neither extreme allows for those choices, so both of them are oppressive and stupid.
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posted
All I can say is that I'm glad Steve cooks.
I had a bad incident with velveeta macNcheese this weekend. The one food I thought I couldn't screw up!
AJ (You know the foil package with the squishy cheese in it? Well it took on a life of its own and declined to enter the pot.)
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quote:(You know the foil package with the squishy cheese in it? Well it took on a life of its own and declined to enter the pot.)
The visuals conjured by those two sentences are far better than anything you could create with a more detailed description. "Turn around boys -it's a trap!"
posted
Velveeta is foul. A friend's mother used to make Velveeta grilled cheeses. They had, honestly, three-quarters of an inch of "cheese" on them. All the kids would get excited..."Mom is making grilled cheese!" But my husband and I would be sitting there wishing we were anywhere else. I'm adventurous with food, and I'll try pretty much any cuisine in any area. (Hence my love of dishes containing woodear or one-thousand-year-old eggs.) But, I could not eat those disgusting sandwiches.
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posted
I don't like the popular feminist idea that domestic work is drudge work and that whoever engages in work like cooking and cleaning is being oppressed. This leads to situations where the "liberated" woman has discovered that she's too good to clean up after her family and hires a Guatemalan nanny to do it. Gee, aren't we enlightened?
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Being on a budget, I am discovering the joys of grilled cheese sandwiches.
But a quarter inch of cheese? Eek.
And I think this thread is pointing out how extremes of any sort can be a bad thing.
-Trevor
Edit: If she has a family, the Enlighted Feminist should motivate her brood to pitch in with regular chores. It builds character and it's still cheaper than hiring a Guatamalan nanny/housekeeper - what with the pesky INS investigation, human rights abuse allegations and on and on and on.
Ok, I was being snarky about the maid/nanny, but learning to clean up after yourself does build character.
posted
Who says that a "traditional family woman" doesn't get her kids to help? I think most of them do, if only because it keeps them included and busy when the housework needs to be done.
Even the Bible talks about a woman making good use of her "maidens".
posted
The bible also mentions using one's slaves and servants. They probably aren't from Guatemala, though.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Well after trying to be thrifty and buying the cubed velveta and separate shells and attempting to make shellsNcheese, it became abundantly obvious that Kraft "Velveeta" in the shells and cheese foil packet is completely different that the cubed stuff by itself.
I don't like the stuff by itself.
The best kind of grilled cheese is co-jack on sourdough IMO. Other variations, like sharp cheddar are acceptable, however the sourdough bread is imperative. (Lest you wonder Steve cooks it, I don't.)
posted
I'm not excluding a "traditional woman" from putting her children to work. In fact, I still encourage it.
But if the modern Feminist views household chores as drudgery, the Enlightened Feminist spreads that drudgery around as a necessary task. It was a rather obscure attempt at humor.
Although the Bible fails to mention "her sons" as well as her maidens. Which should certainly be a consideration in this new, enlightened era.
-Trevor
Edit: All good PSI - I've been upsetting people left and right last night and today. I'm just glad this time it was a misunderstanding of positions.
posted
Yeah...more seriously/to clarify, I've talked about this at length before, notably on the major feminism thread we had (that I started) awhile back. I honestly don't look down on people who choose to stay at home. I think it takes a lot of courage and even more strength.
That said, I also don't look down on women who choose to just have careers, or on those who have children AND a career.
I just feel I owe a lot to the women who came before me and gave me the choice to kiss or eat the frog.
[ July 19, 2004, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: Kasie H ]
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posted
I've made frog legs before - I breaded them in flour and sauteed them in butter and garlic. Mmmmm-mmm!
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