posted
Whenever I tell people I'm a DS9 fan, they always say, "You MUST see Babylon 5, it is SO much better!"
Ok, so I just finished watching the first and second disc of season 2. Not really impressed. I like the Psycore plotline and the bickering among the aliens, but the characters are flat and the relationships are boring.
I especially dislike the captain; he smiles too much, often at inappropriate times.
So what is so great about this series anyway? I didn't see the first season, but I started watching DS9 from the third season and I was able to enjoy that series.
At what point does B5 start getting interesting?
Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Is it because there are so many similarities that I can't help but to compare the two?
I do like the second in command. Then again, I also love Kira. I guess I just like strong women in big shoulder pads. Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I never took a liking to Ivanova, although Kira was fun. Ms. Parker, however, was a personal favorite.
You can't help but compare the two as they are both space stations, dealing with multi-racial contact and bad things happen.
B5 will take on galactic consequences while DS9 tends to be more limited to a specific area, although the Jem'Hdar (sp?) will change that focus somewhat.
posted
Huh. I never noticed the similarities. I guess it's because I've never gotten to watch much past the 2nd season of DS9.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
DS9's definitely worth watching porter. Like all Trek shows, it didn't get off to the best start in the world, but once it had built up a good head of steam it moved along really nicely. Nothing compared to Firefly though. DS9 has officially been bumped to my second favorite SF series. One more disk to go on Firefly, and the episodes just keep getting better.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I'd love to watch DS9 all the way through, but I just haven't had the opportunity.
And I'm certainly not willing to shell out the $$$ for the DVDs.
I just saw an enjoyable but painful DS9 episode the other day. It was the "Trouble With Tribbles" episode done Forest-Gump style. Sooooooo cheesey!
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I got the B5 DVDs last week, and am going through all the episodes. I'm still in season 1, but I've noticed that, taken on their own, a lot of the episodes I like aren't all that great.
It's kinda like once you see the big pay-off (the shadow and earth wars), it retroactively makes the earlier stuff better. What seemed like a stand-alone episode ends up being key to what happens 1 or 2 seasons down the line.
I am reminded of Dune. Dune, but itself was awesome. Children and Messiah weren't as great, but reading them make Dune even better retroactively.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
You must start with Season 1. Would you pick up a novel and start reading on page 100?
Bab5 is a 5 year novel. Each episode is a chapter and is not meant to stand on it's own. And like many novels, it starts kinda slow.
Season 1 is entitled "Signs and Portents." It's the foundation for what is to follow. There are times when you'll say "Where did THAT come from??" and you'll think that it was just pulled out of a hat. But it wasn't. It is the forshadowing for what comes later. (I'm thinking of the specific episode "Signs and Portents" that gave it's name to the entire season.)
If you've gone through 2 disks of season 2, you've seen some really good episodes. But you might not know they were good because you don't know who the people are. And in fact, you've spoiled a lot of season 1.
You need to endure the pilot (it's bad) and watch Season 1. Then watch season 2 from the beginning. Bab 5 must be watched in order. Only Tarintino can make the jumbled chronology thing work well.
The meat of bab5 is seasons 3 and 4 when almost every episode is good and moves the main plot along.
They thought they were going to be canceled so season 4 is a bit rushed. But that just means there's much less filler. I would have liked to have spend more time with (spoiler deleted) and (spoiler deleted) and even (spoiler deleted)! He was delightfully whacky and evil.
But in the early seasons you have to develop the characters. Would you care that (spoiler deleted) if you hadn't grown to like Sheridan? Would you care that (spoiler deleted) was actually (spoiler deleted) if you hadn't gotten to know him?
Start from the beginning. And enjoy the journey!
(edit: And pay attention to the opening credits each year!)
posted
Thanks guys. I'll try to keep an open mind and start from the beginning. However, I'm very curious about this "army of darkness" business and can't wait until these beings officially unveil themselves. They are definitely just as interesting as the Dominion.
Mr. P, "Trouble With Tribbles" is one of my favorite episode! Most Star Trek episodes are so weighty and serious. Sure, I love Picard's obligatory Prime Directive speech as much as anyone, but once in a while I like to see Worf explain why Klingons look different from the original series and listen to Dax talk about having sex with a man with the hands of a surgeon. Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:As a rule, if you like one series (DS9 or B5), you won't like the other.
Bull. Most people I know who like either of them like both.
Beren: You're just a couple discs away from things getting really, really interesting. Let me give you some figures here:
Joe Straczynski, who created and produced the show, also wrote 92 out of 110 episodes. His number of eps by season (each season has 22 eps):
Season 1: 12 Season 2: 15 Season 3: 22 Season 4: 22 Season 5: 21
You can view this as a sort of guide to how good each season is, although it doesn't quite work for season 5, which suffered from problems involved in not knowing there was even going to be a fifth season until the last minute. Some story elements that were going to be in season 5 were moved forward to the end of season 4, which leaves season 5 feeling a bit drawn out (but, on the other hand, makes for one spectacular season 4).
You seem to have about the same amount of patience with the show as my roommate had; I came up with a custom viewing order for him, leaving out a few non-essential eps in the first couple seasons. He felt the show was much improved by that. If you want, I'll post that here.
Posts: 293 | Registered: Jun 2004
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mph: Looks like you stopped watching DS9 right when it was about to get good. I don't know why this always happens, but a lot of others seem to do the same thing.
Posts: 293 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Oh, I didn't understand that Beren didn't start from the beginning.
I definitely agree that you need to understand the 1st season to understand the later seasons.
The initial pilot is very important, too, if you can get your hands on it.
When I first started watching B5, it was early in the 2nd season. Luckily, I had a friend who had started watching almost from the beginning who was able to explain everything I missed.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I'll tell you why I stopped watching DS9 at that point -- that's where Spike TV's DS9 Marathon stopped.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Woo, a custom viewing list. I feel so special.
That will be awesome, but it sounds like a lot of trouble for you so that's ok. Maybe you can just point out the really bad episodes I can skip for seasons 1 and 2?
Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Actually, it's not trouble; I'll just list the ones you should skip:
Season 1: Soul Hunter Infection The War Prayer Deathwalker By Any Means Necessary (not a bad episode, but not great, either, and not necessary) TKO Grail Eyes Legacies
Season 2: The Long Dark A Spider in the Web Knives
And that's it. You can see that most of the skippable eps are in season 1; the quality of the rest of the series really is that much higher.
I could give a more detailed viewing order, which switches around a few episodes to make for a better narrative (they were aired out of the intended order, and the DVDs retain the out-of-order sequence), but instead, I'll just link to the Lurker's Guide Master List. Follow that order (skipping the ones listed above) and you should be fine.
Also, I recommend watching the prequel (In the Beginning) and the pilot (The Gathering) first; others would disagree with me about the prequel, saying it gives away too much, but it's a great TV movie and gives a nice taste of things to come.
Posts: 293 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Those episodes that you will skip over are worth seeing if you are already into B5, but will probably not help you get into b5. Good list.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I am going to have to recommend By Any Means Necessary because it deals so much with G'Kar and Londo. Their relationship is one of my favorite parts of B5.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I tried to get into B5 recently, stopped about halfway through the first season. Honestly, so far, it's been trash. Some of the worst science fiction television I've ever seen, which I'm probably going to get crucified for saying. It's not just Sinclair, it's everything--the dialogue, the plots, the characters, all the way down to nitpicky concerns like the makeup and special effects. I have a lot of writing experience, so I can see a ton of things being knocked into place for the future, but who cares if it's garbage in the meantime?
Fortunately, I saw some of the later episodes when the show was in syndication a couple years back, and I know it gets much better. It's just a shame that the first season was so godawful. Even more of a shame, since I got sidetracked into Smallville and Stargate land, both of which I'm enjoying much more.
Posts: 44 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Also, I recommend watching the prequel [...] first; others would disagree with me about the prequel
The Pixiest wrote:
quote:Do NOT get "In the Beginning" until you've seen the third season episode "War Without End."
See? Told you.
Personally, I think it's more valuable to see In the Beginning first, because at least that way you have some idea of what the show can and will become -- and with the generally low quality of the first season, I think that's needed.
Although the prequel does reveal the answer to the big mystery of the first season, I think it more than makes up for that by setting up lots of other mysteries for the show (including a great hook for War Without End).
I was lucky enough to catch the show from the very beginning; I saw the pilot when it originally aired. (Of course, I was in sixth grade at the time, so as long as it was sci-fi, I was easily pleased.) Ever since the show ended, I've been roping other people into it; I've seen every episode many times simply due to the amount of time I spend putting other people through the series. Thus far, everyone who saw the prequel first has been very thankful, as it made the rest of the series easier to follow and easier to get into. It gave them some idea of what they should be keeping an eye out for; it works as a guide to what's important in the first season and what isn't, which makes that season much more enjoyable to sit through.
That said -- it does give away plot elements. So, here's a list of good spots to watch the prequel, depending on how much the prequel will give away at that point:
Before season 1 -- gives away major plot elements, in particular who the major forces involved are, and gives away the answer to the mystery at the heart of season 1.
After season 2 ep Revelations -- gives away two major characters' future vocations (both central to the story), as well as a relationship you haven't seen signs of yet.
After season 3 two-parter War Without End -- gives away only one future vocation, as well as a main character's culpability for events long past.
After season 4 -- gives away nothing. This is, in fact, right where it originally aired; it was produced after season 4 was finished, and aired right before season 5 started.
Of those spots, I can only recommend that you see it either before the entire series or right after season 4. It works well in both places.
Posts: 293 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Thanks for the advice Bek. I think I will follow your advice and avoid spoiling the story for myself. Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
The 2 or 3 years around when the Bab5 pilot came out, SciFi was in vogue. Seems like every other show that came out was a scifi show (that didn't last) like Earth2 and Above and Beyond.
I really think that if the Bab5 pilot and in fact, the whole first season had not come out when it did, it never would have come out at all.
And if it hadn't been PTENs best show (out of 2) I think, like every other sci fi series that came out at that time it would have been a one season wonder. Or Less.
Fortunately, It got renewed. Season 2 was much better and the rest is history.
Now, we just need a spin off that's not cancled before it starts.....
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
From Bekenn's list -- I can't remember all the individual episodes he lists, but "Soul Hunter" was a good one -- interesting and atmospheric, has a few big hints in it; it had the first "ooh, this is a cool series" feel to it...
And while it's definitely true that "By Any Means Necessary" isn't a great episode, it's interesting for the novelty that it actually deals with the issue of labor unions in space
Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
By Any Means Necessary is one of the best episodes in B5 (IMO) because of the labor union story, I don't find the Londo/ G'kar story that high, neither actor is quite secure in their parts yet. But the labor union plotline demostrates B5's concern for issues that most other shows totally ignore.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:...it's interesting for the novelty that it actually deals with the issue of labor unions in space
More interesting than Rom's labor union? I think not!
Actually, although the Ferengi characters were great on DS9, storylines that dealt with Ferengi culture were duller than Warf's IQ.
quote:Star Trek: DSN was brilliance.
Thanks man! I was waiting for my usual posse to back me up (Narnia where are thou?) but I guess you are just as good. Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:I can't remember all the individual episodes he lists, but "Soul Hunter" was a good one
While I'll admit that the episode does have a few plot hints, there's really nothing essential to the plot in this episode, and despite the metaphysical aspects, I just found the episode to be very boring. I wish I could explain it better than that; I find the ideas behind it to be rather neat, and the story idea's not a bad one, but the presentation just didn't do it for me.
As for By Any Means Necessary... I had a hard time deciding whether or not to put it on the list above, but in the end I just found it too predictable. Just for the novelty, I'd love to at least once see a labor union story where the issue is not cut-and-dry, and it's not clear from the start which (if either) side holds the moral high ground.
Beren: Don't worry, I believe there are lots more DS9 fans here, and you can bet I'm one of them. Best Trek ever.
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