Ok, I'm kinda torn by this. One the one hand, I think the woman should be able to eat whatever she wants, but on the other hand, I think that if a company is mostly islamic and they can become unclean just by touching her left overs that she should leave her bacon at home.
But then again, What if they wanted her to wear a Burka at work?
Then again, what if she was working at a Kosher deli and brought a ham sandwhich in?
I guess I think that unless she's rubbing bacon fat on her co-workers and the business is not religion-related, religion should be completely left out of the work place.
This woman should get her job back.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Yeah, she should get her job back. There is no way the business can make an argument that what she eats impacts the day to day business of the company.
I expect that this little setback will probably gain her a nice little court settlement in her favor.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Presumeably being in the presence of this unclean meat or watching someone willfully and cheerfully engage in eating something Islam declares to be unfit raises hackles.
It would be like wearing Gay Pride colors in a predominately Catholic company. Not entirely illegal, but it would be one heck of a career limiting maneuver.
However, as it stands, the company is going to lose big on this one. If they felt so strongly about pork, they should have the policy in writing.
posted
If someone paper-bagged feces for lunch and ate it in front of or around co-workers, could that be cause enough for a firing? This is basically being considered the same thing.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I'd say the smell, potential loss of customers and employees, and probably sickness would make a pretty good case against feces.
Stormy--might, I should've put in that qualifier. They MIGHT have a leg to stand on, if that were legal. But an unwritten policy? You can't fire someone for being rude.
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posted
The only reason it is legal to ban smoking is due to the multiple laws on the books actually banning smoking.
I believe this woman has a pretty strong case, and any company that asked you to sign a waiver regarding what you may and may not eat on the basis of a religious belief, would likely be in violation of religious discrimination laws. If they asked you to ban all food, then fine. If the food caused a real danger to anyone, that would be fine.
But these guys have little to fall back on.
And, personally, I believe they were wrong to do it.
Posts: 1843 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I'm not sure about Florida's laws regarding termination, but if the company had been a tad brighter, they would have come up with a pretext to justify removing her and avoid this mess.
posted
This is ridiculous; it's a business not a church. She can eat whatever she wants. Even if they had a "policy" against it they told her from the beginning that they did not discriminate.... that and of course it's the law of the land not to anyway. This "policy" is wrong and most likely very illegal.
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:I'd say the smell, potential loss of customers and employees, and probably sickness would make a pretty good case against feces.
There are people who have been known to eat feces and not be sick from it. Not on a regular basis, and they are almost always insane, but sanity is not the issue here. It is the disgust-factor, where pork would be equivalent to feces according to the "unclean" status.
quote:Morales, who is Catholic, was warned about eating pizza with meat the Muslim faith considered "unclean.," Local 6 News reported. She was then fire for eating a bacon, lettuce and tomato sandwich, according to the report.
She was warned once, and then did it again. Both pizza and bacon have a distinct smell, and if it is considered unclean, there is plenty case to say it was making coworkers ill to see, smell, or be near it.
My point using feces stands.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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I wish I could be fired for eating pork. The inevitable court settlement would be a much easier way to pay my tuition, that's for sure.
Posts: 1515 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Bacon has a distinctive smell when it's cooking, but were these people walking up on her and taking the bread off her sandwich!
Dictating what people in your employ eat is a little much.
Was she only doing it to annoy them? Possibly. But, they can't fire her for being annoying.
The smell of seafood is very offensive to me. My mother is deathly allergic to it, and having viewed her nearly die from ingesting an egg roll that had shrimp in it when I was a little girl I have a strong aversion to seafood. It is as offensive to me as smelling feces is, maybe more so because Eru knows I've changed a lot of diapers in my day and I'd rather do that than go in a fish market.
so....if I have a business can I fire someone for going to Captain D's for lunch?
Do Jewish business owners have the right to fire people who don't eat kosher? I've eaten with many a Jewish person who didn't seem offended when I ate pork, they just didn't eat it themselves. That seems to me the sensible way to be about it.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Um, I'm not sure that the company is wrong on this one by law. I'll have to look it up, but I think that they have the right to make company policies that require all employees to respect the laws and practices of Islam that are in accordance with U.S. law.
Also, they didn't fire her for being Catholic or not being Muslim. As far as I know, there's no Catholic law that requires practitioners to eat pork for lunch, so they weren't voilating her religious rights, either.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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This particular case will probably come down to whether or not she was properly notified. And no, "Don't eat pork here again!" doesn't cut it. They need to have documented evidence that there was a written policy, and that she read it, and agreed to abide by it.
The idea makes me angry, because it whether or not it technically avoids infringing on her religious freedom it sure does feel like it's infringing on her personal liberties to be able to eat what she wants. However, I support employers rights' too - I are one.
I would say a Muslim or Jewish owner would have the right to make this rule, but that they would have to be clear unpon hiring so that the person knows up front.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:The idea makes me angry, because it whether or not it technically avoids infringing on her religious freedom it sure does feel like it's infringing on her personal liberties to be able to eat what she wants. However, I support employers rights' too - I are one.
She can eat what she wants, just not on company property. There's no infringement on her personal liberties at all.
As a Christian employer, isn't it important to you that your employees respect your religion? Would you want one of them to come to work wearing an upside-down cross or some other symbol of Satanism?
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I think I might fire the woman too if she's insisting on befouling my work place, which is how it's seen.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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No it isn't important that an employee respects your religion. Its important that they come in, on time, and produce the work you are paying them for. Plain and simple. Thats what you hired them for. Not to obey your religious convictions or restrictions. And before someone pops up and tries to be cute and say 'well, what about coming in drunk, high etc....' that comes in under non performance due to being inebriated, high.
Posts: 986 | Registered: Jul 2001
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About the lady getting fired, perhaps it was a little extreme. I agree she should have gotten a written request to stop. If she continued, yeah, fire her.
But this reminds me of an idea someone I know once had after 9/11. Every plane should have a nice bucket of pig chittlins (sp?), fat, and whatever. If any muslim extremists try to take over the plane, throw the pig bits all over him. That way, if he dies he can't go to heaven without the cleansing rituals... I think. I might be operating under false information. But if it's true, Nyah Nyah nyah nyah nyah.
Pummel him with pork.
(I happen to never eat pig products. Kosher goooood.)
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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It's one thing if she was openly challenging her boss or if she was quietly eating in the lunch room.
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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She WAS openly challenging her boss, by making her choice, even if she did it quietly. Assuming she understood the policy as well as they say she should have. I don't see how they can win a case if they didn't have a written down policy, though.
Posts: 1990 | Registered: Feb 2001
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I feel bad for the poor pigs. Getting such a bad rap. They are actually very clean animals... when they are free ranging that is.
So the question is... why did port become an "unclean" meat to the ancients? Are pig meats more prone to food poisoning?
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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I think, Bookwyrm, no one wanted her to follow their religions, just respect them. Could she have eaten the pork elsewhere?
Telp: Clean on the outside isn't clean on the inside. they don't really have pores, so in essence they are scavenging their own wastes because they can't excrete them very efficiently. Foul creatures, but adorable.
quote:As a Christian employer, isn't it important to you that your employees respect your religion? Would you want one of them to come to work wearing an upside-down cross or some other symbol of Satanism?
I wouldn't like it but unless I stated that they could'nt up front I can't fire them for it. I don't get to dictate their jewelry choices. Unless I have a policy that states that jewelry can't be worn, ever. Like my mother has a policy at her office about piercings and noserings and such. But it's in the handbook you have to read and sign.
Now, we do make it clear that we are a Christian company, and no one who works for us has ever voiced a complaint about it. Wes has a Bible with him in his truck, and usually whatever study book he's reading. He wears one of his Grandfather's cross pins (his grandfather was a minister) on his hat. But we don't make people sign a statement of belief before we hire them, nor do we advertise ourselves as a Christian company.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I don't think she can legally be fired for eating pork, but I wonder if she can be fired for insubordination (seeing as how she had been warned before...)
posted
"There is no way the business can make an argument that what she eats impacts the day to day business of the company."
No, but her actions while in the business establisment could. Suppose she had instead said "You are all going to Hell." as greeting each morning, or decided that sacrificing a chicken was the proper way to start the business day. Creating an unpleasant atmosphere, being rude to coworkers does affect the business.
"What if they wanted her to wear a burka at work?"
What if your office wanted you to wear a suit and tie? What if McDonalds wanted you to wear their uniform to work? What if Disney decided that you had to wear a DonaldDuck costume? I'd prefer the burka (Okay, the DonaldDuck costume might be acceptable on cool days)
quote:I'm talking about the other people present--feces can cause those reactions in others regardless of religion.
Not the same with pork.
Sure it is. I can think of foods that just the sight or smell can make me feel ill, even if I am not eating it. That isn't even based on religious faith, just personal opinion about taste. For someone whose personal opinion goes as far as deeming some foods unclean, I don't see how comparing it to someone eating feces in front of you is not the same.
I'm not talking just the gross factor, I'm talking about the actual visceral reaction to the thing being eaten on what is a very basic level. It's not just unclean in the manner that you probably shouldn't eat it. It is unclean in the manner that it is filthy and should not be eaten.
Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
at first thought I sided with her...but on second thought I think I will gave to go with the company
Regardless of religion, if they feel that pork is disgusting, then she should not eat it. Of course they should make it a written policy, and not simply a verbal one...but I think the company should be able to control the work environment.
When I worked at a grocery store there were all kinds of rules about what you could and could not wear. You had to wear black shoes and a black belt, you could not wear more than a couple rings. Girls could wear one ear ring in each ear (boys could NOT wear ear rings at all), you could only have a small amount of perfume/cologne. All of these rules were to provide a better environment for the customers (and some were to provide a good work environment).
I think the woman was being rude and disrespectful of her coworkers. They found pork to be revolting, yet she did it anyway...even after being warned by management. I don't think religion is the main issue here...it is about respect of your coworkers.
I do think the company should make it a written policy that pork is not allowed, rather than having a verbal policy...but I do feel that the company should have the right to decide what is proper within the company walls. Of course if she wanted to go outside to eat her pork then they company should not be able to say anything...as long as the pork never comes into the building.
posted
I stand by everything I said in my first post, but my personal opinion aside, really the company has illegally exercised religious discrimination in their action. They could not ban a food, only all food. They could ban feces because, as far as I've ever been aware, feces have never been considered food stuffs--in fact is considered a human waste by product, and therefore the analogy is not very apt.
The fish analogy is more apt, but I don't know of any companies who have successfully banned it.
In all my years in Human Resources, I have never lost a labor determination, nor has my company ever been sued over our labor policies because we adhere to the laws of the land. We actually had Satanists work for us, and, no, you can't do anything about it. However you can state that no one may wear any jewelry--and you'd better be prepared to enforce it. Otherwise descrimintaion is happening. We enacted a policy of eliminating all printed tees, not just Satanist ones, and were successful in doing so.
This company is finding out that you can't enact specifically descriminating policies without getting challenged.
As was said earlier, the smarter thing to do would be to find other reasons to get rid of her.
But if they want to make a stand, more power to them. Just hope they aren't annoyed too much when it costs them loads of money to defend a, very likely, losing case. Someone tripped on this one.
Posts: 1843 | Registered: Aug 2003
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More than once, I've heard people say that the compoany should been dishonest about why they got rid of her. That makes me really sad that honesty is considered a poor buisness policy.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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"They could not ban a food, only all food."
Then a heckuva lotta companies are outta compliance with the law. It is quite common to forbid microwave popcorn at work while allowing other foods to be microwaved. And I doubt that very many companies would allow durian fruit, real natto, real dried squid, real kimchee, or real daikon pickles to be eaten on the premises.
quote:really the company has illegally exercised religious discrimination in their action.
No, they haven't. They didn't fire her for being Catholic or for not being Muslim. That would be illegal. They fired her for doing something that they told her not to do. Also, they are allowed to enact company policies in accordance with their religious beliefs, as long as they are not contrary to U.S. law.
quote:In all my years in Human Resources, I have never lost a labor determination, nor has my company ever been sued over our labor policies because we adhere to the laws of the land. We actually had Satanists work for us, and, no, you can't do anything about it. However you can state that no one may wear any jewelry--and you'd better be prepared to enforce it. Otherwise descrimintaion is happening. We enacted a policy of eliminating all printed tees, not just Satanist ones, and were successful in doing so.
They did do this - no one in the company is allowed to eat pork on the premises, regardless of what religion they are. I'm sure that if one of the Muslim employees had eaten pork in their building, they whould have fired him or her as well.
As someone who has worked in HR and labor law, I would say that their mistake was in not following the proper disciplinary steps, which are generally verbal warning, written warning, termination.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
It would be religious discrimination if she belonged to a religion that required her to eat pork -- which she does not seem to be claiming.
As to whether the company has a legal leg to stand on, I agree with those who said it depends on whether they have written documentation of her having been told before that she cannot bring pig-derived products into the workplace before.
As far as Jewish businesses go (specifically ones where kosher food is served/prepared -- otherwise it's not a big issue), the ones around here that I am aware of generally provide a small area (and given SoCal weather, sometimes that place is outdoors) for non-Jewish employees to eat their lunches.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I'm not even so sure that eating pork in the presence of a Muslim or observant Jew is really all that rude. Is it rude to drink coffee or beer in the presence of a devout LDS member? Is it rude to eat chocolate (or whatever) in the presence of a Catholic observing Lent? Is it rude to eat at all in the presence of a Muslim observing Ramadan?
Posts: 2069 | Registered: May 2001
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I would say that the answer in each of those cases was yes, ifyou had already been asked not to do so.
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