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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Star Wars(Getting Worse?) (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Star Wars(Getting Worse?)
SteveRogers
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I don't want to offend those of us who worship Star Wars..............but the movies are just getting worse. I know the final one is to come out soon..............which is why I am saying something now. The last two didn't get very good reviews.............and overall I thought they were crap. I am just going to stick to the original trilogy. Whos with me?
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quidscribis
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Fahim and I are. For sure.

Still, I want to see the next one only because I need to complete the thought. But I know it's not going to be that good. It's a compulsion, I guess. [Angst]

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Synesthesia
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I have the original trilogy. A nice guy gave it to me.
But, I just want to see the 3rd one out of how did he become darth vader curiousity.

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Dagonee
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I liked both I and II. I think II especially has one of the best villian taking over the world story arcs ever filmed.

There. I said it.

Dagonee

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TomDavidson
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I used to be curious, until I saw him strapped to a table with his arms bent up like a velociraptor.
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Choobak
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I am a star wars addict and I think Episode 1 and 2 are interesting to understand the trilogy 4, 5 and 6. But it's right there is a lack. I think the "broken arms team" of Solo, Chewy, and Luke against Empire is that. In the Episodes 1 and 2, Jedis are strong and unbreakable. Humours of dispute between Hann and Leia, Hann and Chewy, Chewy and C3PO... All ingredients of a good movies.

And In the 1 : Jar-Jar... No jock between the master and the rookie.

But, All the 3 episodes lead to a disaster. That why humour become less and less present and let take place to darkness.

There is no other issue... Maybe G.Lucas could try to avoid to create Jar-Jar... [Wink]

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Anna
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I'm not a Star Wars addict, but I think pretty much the same of episode 1 and 2 than of Matrix 2 and 3 : it wouldn't be so deceptive if it wasn't supposed to be part of a great movie. I expected better a following for a movie as the first Matrix, and better a beginning for Star Wars.
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AvidReader
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At first, I hated these movies. Then I saw the general level of crap LucasArts was licensing these days.

I've mentally relegated the new movies, the New Jedi Order series of books, and RPGA's Living Force campaign to a nearby parellel universe. None of these things are Star Wars; they're merely Star Wars-esque.

Since then, I've discovered that if I'm doing something else while II is on, there's actually a few cute lines I can enjoy.

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mr_porteiro_head
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I view SW I and II like I view Matrix II and III.

I consider them fan fiction, with a bigger budget than most fan fiction, but no more validity.

[ January 04, 2005, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]

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xnera
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I'd say the fact that I haven't bothered to download the Ep III trailer is proof that I have pretty much lost interest in most things Star Wars. Which rather sucks, because I practically worshipped that trilogy when I was younger. [Frown] There's a possibility that I won't even bother seeing the movie in the theater, but I will probably give in and go. No party for it, though.
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skillery
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I loved the journey through the core of Naboo in Episode I. The pod race was cool. Jar Jar was difficult to watch.

The chase scene through Corruscant and the chase scene through the droid factory in Episode II was cool. The water planet was cool. Natalie Portman was hot. The arena monsters were awesome. Anakin's whining turned my stomach.

I don't like the CGI additions to the original trilogy.

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mackillian
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Remember, Luke was also a whiny bitch. It seems to run in the family. [Smile]
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Boris
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Episodes I and II suffer from Lucas's attempt to please an excesively large group of insanely die-hard Star Wars fans. You know, the kind that machine molds to create their own Stormtrooper outfits and get married dressed as Han/Leia or Anakin/Amidala, with the best man dressed as either Chewbacca, Wicket, or R2D2. Every time I watch either episode I or II, I keep seeing little things plugged into the dialogue or story that is meant only to make these fans chuckle with reminiscence. The bad thing about that is it destroys the story for the average person. Just go to the Star Wars official forums and see how many people request certain characters to show up in the movies. I don't even know who half these characters are, and I KNOW none of them were created by Lucas himself. I would personally like to see the whole story for Eps. I-III that Lucas wrote in the first place, just to see how much the fandom has invaded the story. I personally think the dialogue for Anakin in all the new movies ("It's working, it's WORKING!!!" *vomit*) was a bit...amature. And the casting of Older Anakin leaves me wondering who was trying out for the part. Natalie Portman is really good in the movie, but goodness, someone shoot the guy who plays Anakin and put him out of his whining misery.

That said, I actually did enjoy the movies, with the exception older Anakin, who gets on my nerves. Ewan McGregor was a perfect choice for Obi-Wan, and the Yoda fight-scene left me saying, "COOL!" about fifty times (On a side not about Yoda in the newer episodes, did his dialogue seem forced to anyone else?). In honesty, I don't think I've made it all the way through Episode II since it left the theatres, since most of the coolness wore off after the first couple viewings, and the story was left bland. I expect the last episode to have the same problems, bad/predictable dialogue, Anakin with long hair (How much time passed between the last two movies, and how long does it take to grow a heavy-metal hairstyle like that? Hair extensions must be popular Long ago in a galaxy far far away.) So yeah, I'll watch the 3rd episode, mostly to get the whole story. But I'll probably only watch it once or twice and forget about it, just like the others.

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Boris
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quote:
Remember, Luke was also a whiny bitch. It seems to run in the family.
Yeah, but Mark Hamill is so much better at being whiny without making me want to puke. That and he wasn't also trying to be every teenage girl's poster fantasy boy like the new guy is.
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TomDavidson
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"Episodes I and II suffer from Lucas's attempt to please an excesively large group of insanely die-hard Star Wars fans. You know, the kind that machine molds to create their own Stormtrooper outfits and get married dressed as Han/Leia or Anakin/Amidala, with the best man dressed as either Chewbacca, Wicket, or R2D2."

You obviously do not know any such fans, or you would not make this statement. At best, Episodes I and II suffer from Lucas's failed attempt to please those fans in a way he thought might appeal.

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mackillian
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quote:
get married dressed as Han/Leia or Anakin/Amidala, with the best man dressed as either Chewbacca, Wicket, or R2D2."
*hangs head*

You figured out our ceremony.

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beverly
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The lowest of low points in the prequells was Amadala confessing her "love" to Anakin.

I can't think of any moment in all of cinema that sunk lower than that.

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mr_porteiro_head
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He's dressing up as R2-D2?
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xnera
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quote:
Remember, Luke was also a whiny bitch.
So very true. But he had a boyish charm that very much appealed to my childhood self. I had SUCH a huge crush on him. [Smile] I still like him now, but I'm not so blinded to the whinyness.

quote:
I would personally like to see the whole story for Eps. I-III that Lucas wrote in the first place, just to see how much the fandom has invaded the story.
Read the drafts of the original trilogy. There are many, many hints to things that ended up in the prequels in them. They're also a fascinating read in the transition from original concept to final product.

quote:
At best, Episodes I and II suffer from Lucas's failed attempt to please those fans in a way he thought might appeal.
Agreed, Tom. I don't think Lucas really knows what he is doing anymore. He's too fascinated by technology and effects, and overlooking things like story. I used to think he was brilliant when I was younger, but the older I get and the more I learn about the history of Star Wars, the more I wonder if he just wasn't surrounded by the right people at the time. Both Empire and ROTJ had large portions of the dialogue rewritten by others, and I feel Empire greatly benefitted from the direction of Kershner.
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blacwolve
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Amidala has pretty dresses. That's the appeal of the prequels for me in a nutshell
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mackillian
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I'm in love with Hayden Christiansen.
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IanO
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I think a number of things are involved in the two trilogies and their differing styles (in addition to those mentioned):

The age of the fans and who GL wrote for. How old were we when the original trilogy came out? I was 3 when SW:ANH came out and 6 when I saw Empire. To me, it was a revelation and I literally became obsessed with the SW universe to the point that I would watch anything that had anything to do with SW in anyway.

I was 25 When Phantom Menace came out. And while I didn't think it was the end of the world (I still think that, for an intendedly campy universe, the manipulation of Palpatine of the whole Naboo affair to get himself elected Chancellor is pretty well done) I much more able to see the flaws (many of which were in the first but have been hallowed by age and emotional memory).

And I was disappointed at the CRAP the GL had put in to cater to children (except that I had been a child who loved SW and it missed some of those things). The stupid Gungans, as a society (who puts a bumbling fool who was banished because he was clumsy in charge of the army? Accidental involvement in a treaty does not make one fit for command) and as individuals (the way Jar-Jar destroys droid after droid accidently). The dialog ("I'm a person, and my name is Anakin!" "I'm sorry. I'm new here and this is a strange place to me."- I cringe), the accidental destruction of the Droid ships through random piloting ("Let's try spinning. That's a good trick!"), the FARTING beasts of burden (I picture GL with his CG team looking at their dailies of the beast farting saying, "I want to see more effort there," or with the sound crew, "It needs to be wetter!" and hang my head in shame at how low he has sunk.)

What was he thinking? We are not four year olds. We are grown up fans who don't remember any of that crap in the originals when we were kids. What was funny in the originals?
"You know, sometimes I even impress myself!" "That doesn't sound too hard."
"Either I'm going to kill her or am starting to like her!" "Chewie, take the professor in the back!" "Will someone get this walking carpet out of my way!" "Hey, it's me!"

But it wasn't just funny. It meant something. It wasn't demeaning or embarressing. It was mythic. GL wasn't pandering. He was giving his vision, his intended myth.

But with the prequels (and really, I am talking about TPM and a few snippets of AotC) he had been a 'god' for years, nearly 2 decades. His touch was golden, he thought. His fans had grown up on his vision and loved him. He could do no wrong. Plus, they were snapping up his sanctioned EU books. They were hungry and if it came from the master they would be satisfied. Besides, the story would be so cool. The fall of Anakin Skywalker (which still works when stripped of the stupid elements that marr it). Now, he did have to pull in a whole new generation of kids. So he went back to the well- and it was spare- the dialog weak (as in the original). So he filled out the story with Buster Keaton and child heroes.

And who would tell the master, tell the man who had stood up to hollywood and done things his way, told the stories he wanted to tell, made some of the highest grossing films of all time, had turned the thematically dark tide of SF and inspired a generation of filmmakers with his vision- who would tell him, "Uh, George? I don't think Jar-Jar belongs in the SW universe (or any universe, for that matter). Maybe we should make this more adult." And why would he listen to them? He was George Lucas!

Well, hubris and all that, right? So he brought in help for AotC and it did work, for me at least, for the most part. Yeah, the SF was pathetic (midichlorians, clones, etc). But then again, so was the SF in the original. It's not actually SF, but fantansy, anyway. But the heart of the tale, Anakin going bad, worked well for me (and anyone who says he can't act is wrong. "Life of a House"? Hello?) Indeed, I thought it made the original trilogy better, not through comparison (wow, this makes the origianl trilogy even better, this one is so bad!), but because when I looked at Vader and listened to his defeatist too-late-for-me conversations with Luke, I saw the pain and could imagine the way he might look back in resignation and fatalistic acceptance of his final position and the casual violence he had perpetrated. It made Vader a deeper person for me and one I could pity even as I wanted his defeat.

I will see the last one. This one is supposed to be dark and so the need to make it humerous (much more subdued in AotC than PM- so he was listening) is not there. I think that this will be a good movie. I hope so. The darkness will help. It's supposed to be sad. There is no hope, really. It is the blackest moment and I believe it will be done well.

(edit: glaring spelling)

[ January 04, 2005, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: IanO ]

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Marlozhan
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And what's with Lucas' obsession with CG? I noticed in the trailer for E3 that even Anakin's robe was computer animated. What, he can't even let a piece of normal clothing be left alone? Maybe Lucas should just let Pixar help him with his films, so at least we know in advance that the only real footage in the films will be the people (at that only applies to some of the people).
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mr_porteiro_head
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I don't have anything to back this up, but I also have a hunch that he has populated Skywalker ranch with people who will never tell him he is wrong.
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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
I'm in love with Hayden Christiansen.
*pukes*

[ January 04, 2005, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]

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Paul Goldner
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Just something to keep in mind, the original star wars trilogy was hugely popular for not just kids, but adults, too.
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IanO
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It was, because it was not insulting. The stupid elements in the prequels were.
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mr_porteiro_head
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Let me point out that Lucas was already starting to show his prequel colors in RotJ.

One word: ewoks

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lem
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mph, are you Hobbes? [Confused]
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IanO
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Not nearly as bad. As 'cuddly' as they were, they were noble. And keep this in mind. In the last original editions he gave an interview and stated that Endor was originally supposed to have Wookies. But he wan't sure he'd get to them, so he put them in the first movie. After establishing a technological Chewie he couldn't make the residents of Endor be primitive Wookies. So he cut them in half and called them Ewoks. And as I said, while "cuddly" they weren't stupid. They were primitives but noble, heroic, self-sacrificing, and they were crucial. The Emperor fell, in the end, because he disdained the power of friendship and those he thought were unimportant. That's what led to the destruction of the shield.

And while GL gave in to kiddie-marketing, like SW cereal, SW cartoons, there was still heart. The Ewok moview and Ewok and Droid cartoons (I watched them recently with my son) and thought that, for what they were, they were rather well done. Yeah, they were for kids. But there was darkness to them (especially the movies) and an amount of depth to them. Yeah, they're kids movies. They were intended to be. SW was not. It was to appeal to all ages, and that is where GL lost focus.

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lem
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quote:

I can't think of any moment in all of cinema that sunk lower than that.

I can.

The end of Four Weddings and a Funeral:

Hugh Grant: "It's raining."
Andy Mcdowell: "I hadn't noticed."

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Insanity Plea
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My friend made a very astute observation on EpI & II and a prediction of III, he said that I was noteworthy in how horrible it was, II was better, THUS III will be even better until we get to IV, which was movie magic at it's best...there's a reason its called "A New Hope."

And for anyone else, the only remastered ORIGINAL IV-VI (unedited) with better than VHS quality video/audio is on Laserdisc, whichI have access to and have made DVD backups of...if anyone may want the original in a form less volatile than VHS, I might be willing to share. Email me if anyone is interested. And be very glad my friend decided against making his LD backups to betamax instead.
Satyagraha

[ January 04, 2005, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Insanity Plea ]

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
mph, are you Hobbes? [Confused]
No. I was being silly.
But probably tasteless.

[ January 04, 2005, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]

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Ginol_Enam
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quote:
And what's with Lucas' obsession with CG? I noticed in the trailer for E3 that even Anakin's robe was computer animated. What, he can't even let a piece of normal clothing be left alone? Maybe Lucas should just let Pixar help him with his films, so at least we know in advance that the only real footage in the films will be the people (at that only applies to some of the people).
Well, first, the trailer for E3? Then that was probably for the video game wasn't it? I haven't seen it, but was it for a transition or something? They might not have been able to get the real cape to move the way they wanted or something.

Anyway...

Besides that, I don't really understand why people are complaning so much about the CG. You think if CG was around in the 70s Lucas wouldn't have been using it as much as he has today? He was using the best in special effects back then, and he is now. If you dislike CG, complain about the whole industry, not just Star Wars.

***

The only prequel that I can understand all the hate for is TPM. I was eleven when I first saw that movie, and the first thing I said to my dad as we were leaving was, "It didn't feel like Star Wars."

AotC, however, I think was pretty good. Bad dialogue aside, I think its right up there with the best of the classic trilogy. Its certainly better than RotJ (except for RotJ's space battle; that always makes me happy).

And what's wrong with Anakin? How can you say that its okay for Luke to be whiny but Anaking not? That's just biased. And I don't see how Hayden is trying to be a poster boy anymore than Mark was in ANH.

I don't know. Some complaints I can understand. Some I think are just people who were shocked that the movies weren't just like the classic trilogy and reaching for "legitimate" things to complain about.

I just don't get it..

PS: Lucas is definetely not trying to please the hardcore fanbase. There are too many things invalidated for that to be true. EG: Obi-Wan no longer being Uncle Owen's brother (as told in the RotJ novelization), the timeline and reason for the Clone Wars (and a bunch of other stuff), Boba Fett's origin.

Lots of stuff.

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Lyrhawn
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You have to take the prequels with a grain of salt. First of all, the time arc is much broader, Lucas has to do more in the same amount of film as the original trilogy, and it's not easy. The time span of the first three films was only a couple years. But the time span of the prequels is more like a decade and a half. He has to stuff a lot of story and explanation into three movies, and the result is whiney fans and non fans who complain because they aren't getting a masterpiece.

Personally I liked Episode One, and I really liked Episode Two, and I'm VERY excited about Epsisode Three. One had to be done to set up two and three. I think the problem people are having with the movies is overzealous expectations. Everyone wanted a magical masterpiece and hyped it up so much that no one could possibly make a movie that would make everyone happy. Everyone needs to step back and give them a real evaluation. Anakin was whiney sure, but didn't he have reason to be? In the second movie he had massive internal debates going on, and he missed his mother, which ate away at him, also he killed a village of relatively innocent people, also adding to his guilt and hysteria, and then people call him whiney? Sorry, I call him human.

It really leads to an in general problem with people and movies these days. Everyone is too critical. No one can enjoy a movie anymore without hacking it to pieces and finding its faults.

I look forward to Episode Three. I think it could be the best of all six. The preview has me incredibly excited. Questions will be answered, the Old Republic will fall, and Darth Vader will be born. Some people are just impossible to please.

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IanO
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As I said, I like TPM, especially Palpatine's machinations. And I really like AotC. The Anakin plotline was, for me, very well done and gave DV much more depth, pain and made me able to understand him.

That said, what irritated me was the stupid crap GL put in the appeal to kids. Jar-Jar, farting beasts, repeated accidental success against enemies, etc. It was so childish and juvenile, things that were NOT in the originals, despite their campy serial-like setting.

I do believe (hope, anyway) that Ep3 will miss a lot of those childish things because it's theme is so much darker. I hope and believe so.

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The Silverblue Sun
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Saying Luke is too whiny in IV, V and VI is like saying Jesus is too preachy in the New Testament.

If you go back and Watch Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back you will notice that Lucas created 2 almost flawless movies, Lucas created 2 of the greatest movies of ALL TIME.

yes. Return of the Jedi was a bit of a fumble, and I and II aren't as good, but please remember, the middle trilogy are based upon heroes, and the first trilogy is based on the Villian, there is no way the Villian can be more entertaining and enjoyable than the heroes.

It's funny that so many people like to complain about Star Wars, considering this is the GENERATION that CANNOT create it's own heroes.

Lucas built his franchise from scratch, where as now everything is based on a friggin' TV show, or a remake, or a lame ass version of a comic book.

Well, if there is one thing America is best in the world at, it is Complaining!

While were at it, would you sons of bitches
get Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan and Hillary Duff out of my sight!!!!!!!!!!

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mr_porteiro_head
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What's wrong with TV shows or comic books?
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Strider
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nothing. I think his point is that so many movies now are adaptations of previous work, be it comic books or tv shows or something else. Nothing is original any more.
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Paul Goldner
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" but please remember, the middle trilogy are based upon heroes, and the first trilogy is based on the Villian, there is no way the Villian can be more entertaining and enjoyable than the heroes."

This statement is utterly false.

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mr_porteiro_head
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Villans, or at least villan/heroes are much more interesting than plain heroes.
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The Silverblue Sun
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quote:
What's wrong with TV shows or comic books
Catwoman.
Daredevil.
All previous Batman's.
Duke's of Hazzard.
Bewitched.

For every Spiderman II there are a 10 crap fests, for every one M. Knight Shalayman there are 20 writers or directors who are willing to cash a paycheck for putting out old crap.

Lucas created something entirly original, he should win mega points for that.

quote:
" but please remember, the middle trilogy are based upon heroes, and the first trilogy is based on the Villian, there is no way the Villian can be more entertaining and enjoyable than the heroes."

This statement is utterly false.

Can you prove it utterly false?

my favorite movies of all time are

Raiders of the Lost Ark (Indy/ Hero)
Empire Strikes Back (Han/ Luke/ Leia/ Chewwy, R2 / hero)
The Natural (ROy hobbs/ hero)
Forrest Gump (hero)
The Matrix (Neo/ Hero)
Ghostbusters (the boys/ heros)
Passion of the Christ (Jesus/ Hero)

where is your list of superior evil people movies?

quote:
Villans, or at least villan/heroes are much more interesting than plain heroes.
Well, I guess that's why people Elected Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney, so they wouldn't be bored!
[Taunt] [Big Grin] [Wink] [Cool] [Kiss]

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AvidReader
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quote:
there is no way the Villian can be more entertaining and enjoyable than the heroes.

The Thrawn trilogy by Timothy Zahn. Thrawn is the coolest Star Wars character ever thought of.

Edit to add: Michael Douglas in Falling Down is the main character and the villan. The bad guy in Se7en. If you count Ben Affleck in Chasing Amy, he wasn't so much a bad guy as a selfish jerk.

[ January 04, 2005, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: AvidReader ]

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Book
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But the prequels have utterly failed to make me care about what happens to the characters. In the originals, when something went wrong I was on the edge of my seat wondering if they were going to get out of it, such as Luke dueling with Darth Vader at the end of Jedi and the huge battle around the partially built Death Star. I was seriously jumping up and down.

The prequels lack this entirely. When something goes wrong, I'm not interested in what happens to the people as much as I am mildly amused at the graphics and technology. For instance, the sonic mines left behind for Obi Wan or the "feeding to the animals" thing in AotC. When Quai Gon died, I shrugged and said, "Muh?"

Lucas has lost the ability to create sympathetic, interesting characters and instead has substituted action and special effects in their place, interesting concepts of technology (some were pretty neat, I won't deny it) and flashy combat scenes instead of plots and people. This works initially, but tires out quickly. Eventually he will understand that the word and concept WOW! is very short and doesn't last long and once you say it you need something interesting to happen to keep you involved.

Needless to say, I don't think he has or will learn this in time. It'll be another orgy of special effects with wooden acting, poor dialogue, and lukewarm passion.

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The Silverblue Sun
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at the end of the day...

Will star wars III be worth 6.50?

to me, yes.

to you? your choice.

but compared to something like,

one trillion dollars,
and a million lives to tame
Iraq to our western ways and have it
as our middle eastern base,

star wars III looks like a very fair deal

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Annie
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quote:
I can't think of any moment in all of cinema that sunk lower than that.
Oooh... I win on this one. From Wimbeldon: "But in tennis, love means nothing!"
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Sopwith
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Thor:
quote:
Lucas built his franchise from scratch, where as now everything is based on a friggin' TV show, or a remake, or a lame ass version of a comic book.
Umm, might I direct you to the works of Akira Kurosawa? Check into his films from the 1950s and 1960s. Sit back and enjoy, trust me, even with the subtitles, you'll be in familiar territory.

The Seven Samurai and Yojimbo were co-opted by Hollywood in their own right, but GL lifted characters and plots wholly from Kurosawa's work for the original Star Wars trilogy. He even readily admits it.

Back then, though, if you weren't either from Japan or a film student, chances are you'd never see Star Wars and say, hey isn't that really The Hidden Fortress or The Throne of Blood?

Are GL's movies getting worse? Nah. But Kurosawa hasn't made anything recently for George to borrow from.

[ January 04, 2005, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Sopwith ]

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Olivetta
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Yeah, it was a rip-off. I loved SW as an 8 year old.

But now... I only watch the prequels to see how many different ways they'll tie up Ewan McGregor. Or drench him with water. Or dangle him from high things.

[Big Grin] [Blushing]

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bCurt
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I have liked the prequels so far. I haven't loved them. Of course, I'm not that picky and don't analyze movies to death, either. The story is good but the execution (script) is not. I blame that on Lucas doing the script writing. The bonus is the great CG effects.

The very fact the movies are sequels takes some of the surprise away because you know what happens later. I think that takes some suspense and excitement away because you mostly know where the main characters end up. Who really cares about the side characters though they may provide entertainment and filler? It is hard to create suspense and excitement with them.

What about rumors of postquels (there's probably a better term)? The prequels have made enough money that Lucas may feel justified to continue making Star Wars movies though maybe on a different level of participation (actually, his reduced involvement sounds good).

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Are GL's movies getting worse? Nah.
I don't see how I could disagree more.
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