Hatrack River
Home   |   About Orson Scott Card   |   News & Reviews   |   OSC Library   |   Forums   |   Contact   |   Links
Research Area   |   Writing Lessons   |   Writers Workshops   |   OSC at SVU   |   Calendar   |   Store
E-mail this page
Hatrack River Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Video games and women (Page 1)

  This topic comprises 6 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6   
Author Topic: Video games and women
Destineer
Member
Member # 821

 - posted      Profile for Destineer           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Surprised this hasn't been brought up here:

http://www.polygon.com/2014/8/28/6078391/video-games-awful-week

quote:
On Monday, prominent media critic, Anita Sarkeesian, posted a video to YouTube that criticized the use of women as background decoration, particularly in violent and sexual ways.

Many of those who shared the post received threats and harassment.

...

Death and rape threats forced Sarkeesian to leave her home for safety. These threats are merely a cross section of the cruel and frightening harassment Sarkeesian has faced in her career.

I actually disagree (mostly) with Sarkeesian's perspective on games, but it's really tragic to see the kind of backlash she receives just for expressing that perspective.
Posts: 4512 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Eh, much of her perspective, what I remember from watching her stream...hmmm, about half a year ago?...seemed pretty darn spot on to me. As for this?

Frankly it would be significantly more surprising if her perspective were wrong. As a culture we're climbing out of the history of generalized misogyny. There's certainly a case to be made for that we're definitely more out than in that hole now than ever before. But videogames has been, until recently, an overwhelmingly male hobby. Female videogamers aren't considered surprising by some people on the basis of nothing, after all.

Take a broader society growing out of systemic problems with misogyny. Take a subset of that society, make them largely male. That subset is also often, though much less often now as generations shift, sometimes considered weaker, unmanly, etc. Is there something in that background that can be disagreed with? And if not, is it really a surprise that there would be a problem with female perspectives in video games?

Posts: 16405 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scifibum
Member
Member # 7625

 - posted      Profile for scifibum   Email scifibum         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The hate being directed at Sarkeesian makes me sick, but it also makes me sick when would-be representatives of the PROUD MEN OF GAMING excuse, minimize, or obscure it by harping on their view of her sincerity or qualifications.

To the latter: grow the *%*^ up, you ridiculous, pathetic gamehumpers. The market will continue to feed you what you want to buy. Stop feeding the trolls by displaying your insecurity. Personally, I think you could learn something from listening to Sarkeesian, but whether or not I'm right, "SHE IS A LYING LIAR WHO JUST HATES GAMES AND MEN AND WANTS ATTENTION" is not a response that reflects well on you.

N.B.: I have no problem with gaming enthusiasts in general and I've enjoyed many games that contain the things that Sarkeesian is criticizing. No really, it can be a really good game even if it really truly reflects and perpetuates adolescent views of women and sexism.

Posts: 4008 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Destineer
Member
Member # 821

 - posted      Profile for Destineer           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't necessarily disagree with her diagnosis of the culture, but I think she mistakenly approaches games from what you might call the perspective of "media" rather than "art." I think it can be worthwhile for art to explore, and even exploit, our darker natures. Halloween is a good movie. Deep Red is a great movie.

There should probably be more games that don't have that exploitation element, but I don't think it's a problem that many games do have it.

Posts: 4512 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scifibum
Member
Member # 7625

 - posted      Profile for scifibum   Email scifibum         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think one difference between games and other forms of art is the amount of time a consumer might tend to spend immersed.
Posts: 4008 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have been very affected by Anita Sarkeesian's work within Feminist Frequencies. It has totally changed how I view female characters in video games. I think virtually all the things she has been saying are spot on, and I think it's absolutely disgusting what the response to her videos has been from male gamers.
Posts: 14261 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Raymond Arnold
Member
Member # 11712

 - posted      Profile for Raymond Arnold   Email Raymond Arnold         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think receiving death threats is sort of positive evidence for the argument she's making.
Posts: 4107 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
One of the more common 'rebuttals' I've seen is that Sarkeesian is to be blamed even for the threats of death and rape, or both, not always in that order: that she solicits them by posting things she knows will cause upset, and that since they could have been expected it's deceptive or whiny for her to complain.
Posts: 16405 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Destineer
Member
Member # 821

 - posted      Profile for Destineer           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
I think receiving death threats is sort of positive evidence for the argument she's making.

No, it's not. It's evidence that gamers are like all people everywhere, and a certain percentage of them will make sickening threats in an anonymous internet venue against people they see as attacking them.
Posts: 4512 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
DustinDopps
Member
Member # 12640

 - posted      Profile for DustinDopps           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've thought about this a lot over the past few days and I think it is more a problem with the anonymity of the internet than it is a problem with this particular topic or with Sarkeesian.

If you visit the website of a conservative blogger, for example, you see the same kind of hate and anger. They get death threats every time they post something new.

To be fair, because she is a woman she gets some "special" threats that are horrendous. I acknowledge that. But on the whole, I don't think she gets more threats than most other internet celebrities.

Does anyone have a link to a study about this topic? I'd be interested in learning more.

Posts: 260 | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Destineer
Member
Member # 821

 - posted      Profile for Destineer           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think feminist internet celebrities probably get more threats than most other kinds, but I doubt that the threats from the gaming community are worse than the ones from other communities where feminism has come under fire.
Posts: 4512 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Destineer
Member
Member # 821

 - posted      Profile for Destineer           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
I think one difference between games and other forms of art is the amount of time a consumer might tend to spend immersed.

It's entirely possible. Someone should do a study about whether that makes a difference to anything.
Posts: 4512 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
the ****ing worst part about this is that anita's videos are pretty goddamned patient and comprehensive and actually do a pretty damn good job of advocating her point very well and providing lots of things to think about and does in a lot of ways advocate being much more careful with how women are used and portrayed in the medium of video games.

and this drives the various scum hives of gamers and MRA's absolutely insane and she gets this as a result, it's ridiculous

Posts: 14163 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
though at the same time the zoe quinn thing is ridiculous on all ends and there are only villains
Posts: 14163 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dogbreath
Member
Member # 11879

 - posted      Profile for Dogbreath   Email Dogbreath         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
the ****ing worst part about this is that anita's videos are pretty goddamned patient and comprehensive

Yeah. After reading about them and the responses, I was expecting them at least to be rather shrill, or maybe ignorant of the games referenced or taken out of context. I actually watched them this morning and they're quite fair and use specific examples in a reasonable manner. She also mentions that she enjoys many of the games mentioned, and participates in the gamer community, and goes out of her way to avoid offending gamers or making any generalizations or stereotypes. She simply talks about the sexist tropes used many in video games.
Posts: 1147 | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
DustinDopps
Member
Member # 12640

 - posted      Profile for DustinDopps           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The Zoe Quinn thing is a huge mess. I read her ex-boyfriend's account with all of the accompanying chat messages and it's clear she is a liar and cheated on him repeatedly. But having said that, what right does he have to ruin her reputation?
Posts: 260 | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dogbreath
Member
Member # 11879

 - posted      Profile for Dogbreath   Email Dogbreath         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
what?
Posts: 1147 | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Destineer
Member
Member # 821

 - posted      Profile for Destineer           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I didn't know about that Quinn story. Sounds kind of like the gaming version of the Anthony Weiner scandal: why would someone's private life matter to these people?

quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
the ****ing worst part about this is that anita's videos are pretty goddamned patient and comprehensive

Yeah. After reading about them and the responses, I was expecting them at least to be rather shrill, or maybe ignorant of the games referenced or taken out of context. I actually watched them this morning and they're quite fair and use specific examples in a reasonable manner. She also mentions that she enjoys many of the games mentioned, and participates in the gamer community, and goes out of her way to avoid offending gamers or making any generalizations or stereotypes. She simply talks about the sexist tropes used many in video games.
Yeah, she is pretty thoughtful and fair-minded. She's just starting from what I would call a mistaken opinion about aesthetics, assuming that it's bad for games to include sexist tropes. [Wink]

But many people are moralists about art these days. She's not alone in making that assumption.

Posts: 4512 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
'These days'?

Anyway, by this strange metric you're using, all anything needs to be to be free from criticism is to call it art. Which is in any event an oversimplification of many video games. People don't tend to imagine themselves as the Thinker, projecting their own lives onto his and imagining adventures for it. People don't tend to go to conventions dressed in the garb of Renaissance figures, much. They don't spend tens or dozens or even hundreds of hours experiencing a single piece of art, however masterful.

Some form of art is necessary for a good game. Visual, aural, in terms of storytelling. But for better or worse, games- of all kinds-involve more interaction than art does. It's not just art, it's a game.

Posts: 16405 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Destineer
Member
Member # 821

 - posted      Profile for Destineer           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't think it should be free from criticism. I just object to the leap from "This work of art has morally problematic aspects" to "This work of art should not have been made, or should not have had those problematic features." Sometimes the thing to do is instead to note the morally troubling aspects of the work, pay attention to the role they play in the work, and enjoy it with that understanding in mind.

And of course while Sarkeesian herself focuses on games, others like her are swarming all over other art forms of all sorts, especially movies and TV--look at any random Jezebel article.

quote:
People don't tend to imagine themselves as the Thinker, projecting their own lives onto his and imagining adventures for it. People don't tend to go to conventions dressed in the garb of Renaissance figures, much. They don't spend tens or dozens or even hundreds of hours experiencing a single piece of art, however masterful.
That may or may not make much of a difference to what people take away from games as opposed to, for example, other forms of fiction. It would take some careful work in social psych to really answer a question like that.
Posts: 4512 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I put fiction on a similar level to...well, games that tell a story, for obvious reasons. Not all games do this, of course-and quite a lot of art tells a story too, and can be enormously powerful and meaningful. It's just usually shorter is all, and less of the viewer becomes invested in the story.

As for disapproving of the content, you know as well as anyone that moral and ethical judgments of art and story aren't new at all. It is in fact so very old that when people try it-to completely separate art and story from social conventions of morality-the result is often scorned. They'll lose funding or be threatened with boycotts or even from time to time attacked.

In any event, I don't see what is problematic in saying 'this conveys a toxic message, and we should work on getting over that toxicity as a society'. That's simply one of the ways culture grows and changes.

Posts: 16405 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Destineer:
I don't think it should be free from criticism. I just object to the leap from "This work of art has morally problematic aspects" to "This work of art should not have been made, or should not have had those problematic features." Sometimes the thing to do is instead to note the morally troubling aspects of the work, pay attention to the role they play in the work, and enjoy it with that understanding in mind.

Which is, straight up, exactly what Sarkeesian makes sure to put down her position as:

quote:
Remember that it is both possible (and even necessary) to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of its more problematic or pernicious aspects.

Posts: 14163 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Destineer
Member
Member # 821

 - posted      Profile for Destineer           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
But I think her view is that the games she criticizes would have been better without the problematic aspects. I disagree with that.
Posts: 4512 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Destineer
Member
Member # 821

 - posted      Profile for Destineer           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
But I think her view is that the games she criticizes would have been better without the problematic aspects. I disagree with that.
Posts: 4512 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Huh. Deleted post?
Posts: 16405 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Destineer
Member
Member # 821

 - posted      Profile for Destineer           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No, just a double post.
Posts: 4512 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So are you simply against critique of art, then? Because what you seem to be describing-'Here is how this might be better, here is what was especially good about it'-seems to be the heart of criticism of just about anything.

Her problem is not that people make games she disapproves of, it is this expression of cultural sexism. That's what she really disapproves of. So it seems as though when someone encounters an aspect of culture that they disapprove of, they should...what, just try to see the silver lining and be quiet or something?

I don't think that's what you're actually saying, mind. But this seems like one of those esoteric Destineer viewpoints, rather thoroughly divorced from real experience. I mean, 'now' people are moralistic about art? People should not criticize art and story they find problematic? And isn't this a bit ironic anyway>

Posts: 16405 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Destineer:
But I think her view is that the games she criticizes would have been better without the problematic aspects. I disagree with that.

What do you think she defines as the 'problematic aspects?'
Posts: 14163 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Destineer
Member
Member # 821

 - posted      Profile for Destineer           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
So are you simply against critique of art, then? Because what you seem to be describing-'Here is how this might be better, here is what was especially good about it'-seems to be the heart of criticism of just about anything.
No, I'm very much in favor of critiquing art as art. What I object to is people who act like the step from "there is a moral problem with this work of art" to "there is a problem with it as art" is obvious and doesn't need to be filled in.

Moreover, I object to people who criticize art on the basis that it cultivates harmful attitudes in people. Probably it does, probably watching Deadwood is likely to make some viewers more sexist, but that doesn't mean the artistic vision that went into Deadwood was in any way flawed, or that the show should have been made differently.

Let me give you an example of the way legitimate criticism of art can involve moral issues.

In the most recent season of Game of Thrones, there was an episode where Jaime Lannister raped Cersei. The director of the episode later revealed that it was ambiguous, in his opinion, whether the sex was consensual.

No sane person who watched the episode could possibly reach that conclusion. It was just a rape scene; she kept saying no the whole time. So there were at least two big things wrong with that episode as art. First, the director did not achieve his aim in creating an ambiguous scene. Second, Jaime--who had been garnering audience sympathy for some time now, which sympathy was important to his role in the story--suddenly looks like a horrible human being who would rape the person he loves the most. So we end up disgusted with a guy we're supposed to be rooting for, and nothing good for the story is achieved thereby.

Now, the moral badness of the scene is part of what makes it a bad scene aesthetically. It's a piece of the puzzle. But just pointing out the moral problems with it is not enough to criticize it aesthetically. I need to also do the work of showing that the moral faults of the work lead to aesthetic problems with it.

quote:
I don't think that's what you're actually saying, mind. But this seems like one of those esoteric Destineer viewpoints, rather thoroughly divorced from real experience.
On the contrary, I think the view takes a bit of nuance to state, but it comes from a place of common sense. Anyone who has enjoyed a mean joke while fully recognizing how mean it is knows that moral badness can be funny. And humor is a form of art. What isn't always so obvious to people is that moral badness can be beautiful, or poignant, or good in all sorts of ways that matter to art.

quote:
What do you think she defines as the 'problematic aspects?'
Well, for example, I gather from one of her videos that she thinks the scene with the dead hooker's ghost in Bioshock is problematic.
Posts: 4512 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MrSquicky
Member
Member # 1802

 - posted      Profile for MrSquicky   Email MrSquicky         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This is a difficult one for me. I more or less see the problems in gaming that Anita points out and I think that people are definitely anonymously sending her terrible, misogynistic threats online.

On the other hand, I've found the videos of hers I've watched to be shallow and sometimes inaccurate and it disturbing that she disallows comments and doesn't engage with people who disagree with her respectfully. Just listing examples that you think (sometimes inaccurately) match your thesis without analysis or followup seems of limited use to me.

But that's fine. However, I've gotten a strong scammer vibe from her and a little bit of looking into her seems to potentially back this up. She's claimed to be a gamer, but there's video of her from before she was on this route saying that she never really played video games. I'm not doubting that she's received some pretty awful stuff, but she has struck me as consciously farming outrage to promote herself, similar to Susan Wilson.

In any contentious, emotional issue, there is plenty of room for people to con people without putting too much effort into it. This is a shame because they tend to be a lot better at attracting attention than people legitimately concerned with addressing it and they crowd these people out. Several seem to have glommed onto women in STEM and I get the feeling (though I could be wrong) that Anita is one of them.

So, I was primed to be skeptical of this and with that frame of mind, if you look at the tweet screenshot, there's a far bit about this that suggests to me the Anita may be behind this. Specifically, the screen shows someone looking at the tweets 12 seconds after the last one was posted. There was no search filled in and the user was logged out. It's possible that Anita (or whomever took the screen shot) somehow legitimately ended up with a screen like that, but that looks a lot like someone wrote those tweets, logged out so that the name wouldn't show up, and then took the screen shot.

Posts: 10132 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Destineer
Member
Member # 821

 - posted      Profile for Destineer           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Which screen shot are you talking about?
Posts: 4512 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MrSquicky
Member
Member # 1802

 - posted      Profile for MrSquicky   Email MrSquicky         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Here it is (warning: that link contains some really awful written statements)
Posts: 10132 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Destineer
Member
Member # 821

 - posted      Profile for Destineer           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Seems unlikely that she'd put her home address up like that. And her parents' address.
Posts: 4512 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Destineer
Member
Member # 821

 - posted      Profile for Destineer           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'd be interested to read respectful critics of her views, if you have any links you can share.
Posts: 4512 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MrSquicky
Member
Member # 1802

 - posted      Profile for MrSquicky   Email MrSquicky         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Destineer:
Seems unlikely that she'd put her home address up like that. And her parents' address.

If she faked the tweets, why would you think that she'd use the actual addresses in them?

They are blacked out in Anita's post and the tweets were quickly taken down, so they were only available for a likely very short time.

Posts: 10132 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
When we're talking about disallowing comments is that that she is blocking Youtube comments on her Youtube video posts

I have no idea why that isn't considered a universally appropriate move. It's Youtube.

Posts: 14163 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Destineer
Member
Member # 821

 - posted      Profile for Destineer           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've seen some fine, fine Youtube comments from time to time.
Posts: 4512 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have a few academic critiques of her points and her general analytical methodology and questions for her base premises but they get lost in an ocean of hate so
Posts: 14163 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
are we going to retroactively decide that she purposefully got her own videos taken off youtube to feed her feminist conspiracy or
Posts: 14163 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MrSquicky
Member
Member # 1802

 - posted      Profile for MrSquicky   Email MrSquicky         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Dest,
It's been a while since I looked at this. Most of the criticism were YouTube videos posted in response to hers. There are a wide range of them that are not abusive and raise what I felt were good points, although it is admittedly hard to determine at a glance between those and the abusive ones.

A lot of them were the of the sort that her opinions were simplistic and lacking in context (e.g. much of her Damsels in Distress focused on games from the 80s, but didn't acknowledge the context of games in the 80s). Many also pointed out that her descriptions of some of the games were way off base (the strippers in Hitman is a recent example of this). A few talked about how games are largely aimed at boys (and some men) because they are the ones by far the ones buying the games (Mass Effect and femShep from the Ms. Mister one springs to mind).

---

I do remember a few instances of bad behavior that also colored my opinion.

For example, she stole someone's art work to use in her videos.

Or that it looks likely that she is lying about her history of being a gamer.

[ September 01, 2014, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]

Posts: 10132 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MrSquicky
Member
Member # 1802

 - posted      Profile for MrSquicky   Email MrSquicky         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
When we're talking about disallowing comments is that that she is blocking Youtube comments on her Youtube video posts

I have no idea why that isn't considered a universally appropriate move. It's Youtube.

No we're not. At least I'm not. I'm talking about disallowing comments on FeministFrequency.com.

[editing out something unhelpful]

[ September 01, 2014, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]

Posts: 10132 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MrSquicky
Member
Member # 1802

 - posted      Profile for MrSquicky   Email MrSquicky         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
are we going to retroactively decide that she purposefully got her own videos taken off youtube to feed her feminist conspiracy or

I'm not sure what the right way is to respond to this. I think that we'd all be better off if you behaved respectfully, but that doesn't seem like something that is going to happen.
Posts: 10132 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Destineer
Member
Member # 821

 - posted      Profile for Destineer           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That's a tone argument, dude. Tool of the oppressors. [Wink]
Posts: 4512 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BlackBlade
Member
Member # 8376

 - posted      Profile for BlackBlade   Email BlackBlade         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I know this is apologetics but why couldn't she be a gamer who lost touch with them (Around 2010) and then reconnected with them since because she decided she was passionate about exploring the theme of feminism within the medium?

Maybe she felt embarrassed to admit she played video games growing up?

I dunno, I mean I'd be very interested in hearing her response to those clips for sure.

Posts: 14261 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Destineer
Member
Member # 821

 - posted      Profile for Destineer           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm actually not super interested in the question of whether she's a real gamer. Seems like an ad hominem to me. Whether she's a member of the community or an outside critic, it doesn't change the aptness (or not) of her observations.
Posts: 4512 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
are we going to retroactively decide that she purposefully got her own videos taken off youtube to feed her feminist conspiracy or

I'm not sure what the right way is to respond to this. I think that we'd all be better off if you behaved respectfully, but that doesn't seem like something that is going to happen.
the right way to respond to this is to probably chill and not feel so immediately and directly assailed. especially don't use that assailment to patronize someone else's foregone apparent lack of capacity to behave respectfully.

the conspiracymongering around anita is at present literally insane. it really is. there is no denying it. i do not doubt for a second that people are going to literally accuse her of setting up her own youtube video takedown which was a real thing that actually happened.

Posts: 14163 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rakeesh
Member
Member # 2001

 - posted      Profile for Rakeesh   Email Rakeesh         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have seen one of the links Mr. Squicky shared, the one about her being a 'real gamer' or not.

I admit I have a problem seeking out evidence that might contradict her claims like I should. It's not the way a skeptic should think about things, but damnit, I *have* followed up on more than a few critiques of hers on the Internet and holy freaking hell, they so often tend to be horrifying, shameful expressions of violent misogyny to the extent of 'embarrassed to be a male gamer' occurs to me more than once. I know that's not the sum of criticism of her work, of course. Destineer for example criticizes her work and is entirely free of that sort of thing. (I'm not trying to damn you with faint praise or anything, Destineer. You're just an example is all.) You do as well, Mr. Squicky.

Now that said, the video linked there does seem to leap to its own desired conclusion. There is a flat out contradiction indicated by her lecture footage. The fact that it proves she is not or was not a 'real gamer', on the other hand, isn't quite proven. She certainly appears to be deceptive on that, and it would take some significant explanation before it could be set aside as an example of dishonesty, yes. But the question is: was she misleading in those lectures, or misleading in her critique of videogames?

I suppose my question becomes, though: what if she is a clever media manipulator? That's a problem if true and should definitely color perceptions of her and call for increased skepticism when viewing her work. But if she is? If all it needed was a little nudge to lift the lid on all this disgusting cultural slime bubbling just under the surface in gamer culture? Hey. I may not end up liking her as an honest commentator on culture, but that's still a useful freaking service.

(I say 'lift the lid' as though it's not known to anyone with even a little experience delving into an online video game or forum.)

Posts: 16405 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ElJay
Member
Member # 6358

 - posted      Profile for ElJay           Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:

So, I was primed to be skeptical of this and with that frame of mind, if you look at the tweet screenshot, there's a far bit about this that suggests to me the Anita may be behind this. Specifically, the screen shows someone looking at the tweets 12 seconds after the last one was posted. There was no search filled in and the user was logged out. It's possible that Anita (or whomever took the screen shot) somehow legitimately ended up with a screen like that, but that looks a lot like someone wrote those tweets, logged out so that the name wouldn't show up, and then took the screen shot.

Here's what it looks like to me. Someone starts getting horrible tweets directed to them in their timeline. They note the poster's handle, then hit block. The sooner you block someone, the sooner they are likely to stop tweeting at you since they know you won't see it anyway. (Or at least make a new account and start again.) But when you block someone, you can no longer see their tweets, and tweets that are harassing and threatening usually get deleted quickly to remove the evidence. So as soon as you block them, you log out and go to their timeline so you can grab a screenshot and have evidence that it happened. If you were online when the abuse started, which you likely were because the abuser probably waits until you tweet so they know you're there, you probably end up with a screenshot very much like that one.

Some women who deal with this tell their followers not to report the abuse to Twitter, because if Twitter agrees it's abuse all they do is delete the tweets, and if that happens before the person being harassed sees it and gets screenshots they don't have any evidence it happened for their "in case something happens" file.

Posts: 7911 | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MrSquicky
Member
Member # 1802

 - posted      Profile for MrSquicky   Email MrSquicky         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Destineer:
I'm actually not super interested in the question of whether she's a real gamer. Seems like an ad hominem to me. Whether she's a member of the community or an outside critic, it doesn't change the aptness (or not) of her observations.

It is an ad hominem and intended to be so. I'm not trying to discredit her arguments; I'm trying to demonstrate why my image of her is someone who I could see creating fake rape tweets to garner publicity, which led me to react critically to this situation.

It is possible that I am majorly biased, but does my analysis of the posted screenshot seem completely off base to people? Do the things I noticed not seem kind of hinky? Is there an obvious other path to get those results that is completely innocent that seems reasonable?

Posts: 10132 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MrSquicky
Member
Member # 1802

 - posted      Profile for MrSquicky   Email MrSquicky         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And Eljay provided one right before I posted. Yeah, that sounds reasonable. The piece I was missing was needing to log out to see the blocked poster. Given that, I think my initial suspicion is very likely wrong and this is more of the horrible stuff that's been dumped on her that no one should have to go through.
Posts: 10132 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 6 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2