posted
I had an interesting revelation today. In my French class (it's an advanced conversation and phoenetics course, so we have to do a lot of talking), one of the Moroccan students did her presentation on the media. She made a point about how the media represents religions in a way that leads to misunderstanding. She really emphasized the point that people who commit violence in the name of Islam are just as extremist as people who lynch blacks in the name of Christianity. It's a point we've heard often these days.
However, what I was surprised to hear was that before she came to the US, she held the understanding, taught to her by the media, that Americans were not religious at all. She was shocked when she came and lived with a fundamentalist Christian family for a while that they were such devoutly religious people. This struck me as odd because most of my foreign friends are European, and are always mentioning how religious Americans are. It didn't strike me that, in the Arab world, we're seen as entirely Godless. It makes sense, though, because that's exactly what our network television portrays us as.
So here's the question - why do we have the stereotype of being religious loonies to Europeans and Godless monsters in the Middle East? Where do these stereotypes come from, if these people are seeing the same media?
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posted
It's easy. We worship the same God as the Europeans, but do so far more rigorously; to the Europeans, then, who recognize our faith, we appear outrageously faithful.
We do NOT -- effectively -- worship the same God as Muslims, or at least do not believe that we do, and so they do not recognize in us any elements of faith. I'd imagine that if you asked a Muslim to decide whether the USA or the Netherlands were more "godless," he'd eventually choose the latter -- but that's like asking an American whether India or Bali is more religious.
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The media portrays religious people as the fanatical minority and the main characters/protagonists as secular.
The bad guys are the religious homophobes, bible thumping extemeists who are the minority (in the media).
The good guys are the secular atheists who are never shown attending church or speaking out positively on conservative issues, but are plagued by the bad guys.
Those views are received and viewed by the different parts of the world, differently.
Also, no religious programming other than Islamic is allowed to be broadcast.
None of them have ever seen a Billy Graham TV special on their televisions. It's against the law to promote any religion other than Islam.
But they have seen Baywatch (which was the #1 show in the world when it was at it's height if I remember correctly)
posted
A large portion of Americans, though, are religious. I think it odd that none of this leaks out into our TV and movies.
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posted
This girl is from Morocco, which is, I believe, among the liberal Arab nations. I'll have to ask her if there is any state-sanctioned promotion of religions other than Islam.
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posted
Touched by an Angel Buffy the Vampire Slayer Charmed The Passion of the Christ The Last Temptation of Christ Jesus Christ Superstar Joan of Arcadia ...and so on.
In fact, I'm genuinely hard-pressed to think of a single show -- with the exception of Star Trek: The Next Generation -- in which any of the main characters were positively-depicted atheists or agnostics.
Characters in TV shows and movies regularly go to church, find comfort in their faith, and surround themselves with Christian (usually Catholic) iconography. If a character without faith is presented in a show, he will almost always FIND faith of some sort by the show's resolution.
The real disconnect is this: the American media is full of Christians, but most of these Christians do not behave in a particularly moral way. Is this a distortion of reality?
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posted
It's funny that they're mostly Catholic. Now that I think about movies, I agree with that. Is it because our entertainment is so heavily weighted toward New York City?
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When I think of American TV, I think of Friends and The Simpsons, both of which I see as depictions of atheists/agnostics. Maybe, though, to me, someone who doesn't attend church functions 5 nights a week translates as an atheist.
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The simpsons definetely are not atheists. Friends, never saw it...
Tom's right. Other then star trek, there are no positively viewed atheists or agnostics on television. There may be athiests, but they are usually angry or depressed, and seeking to find faith.
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quote: Tom's right. Other then star trek, there are no positively viewed atheists or agnostics on television. There may be athiests, but they are usually angry or depressed, and seeking to find faith.
Law and Order: All of them. The Practice NYPD BLUE Will & Grace CSI: All of them. ER SCRUBS etc. etc.
Who are the religious main characters in any of those?
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It seems to me that most of the characters in most of the shows are not positively identified as atheists, agnostics, or believers. Either they are atheist/agnostic, or their belief doesn't really make much of a difference to their lives.
Take Friends. Religion practically never comes into play for any of the people.
Pheobe is a believer, but is portrayed as a nutcase.
Joey grew up going to church, but I have seen no indication that he actually believes anything.
I've seen no indication about the beliefs of any of the other main characters.
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The entire Simpsons family goes to a Protestant church every Sunday. Lisa is a Buddhist, and Apu and his family are Hindu.
Of the "Friends," I believe -- although I'm not sure -- that Ross and Monica are both reform Jews. Monica and Chandler were married, I believe, by Joey, who got himself "ordained" by the Universal Life Church but is himself Catholic. Rachel and Ross had a Christian wedding. And, IIRC, Phoebe is a New Ager. Chandler MAY be agnostic; I honestly have no idea. The key to "Friends" was, I believe, that the characters never actually discussed anything important.
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Actually, the Simpsons go to church all the time, their just not fanatics like Ned Flanders. I love the episode where the church is broke and they sell out to corporations, via advertising.
As far as atheists on TV, isn't Peterson's character, Grissom, on the original CSI an atheist scientist? He comes across well.
[edit: Crap! Too slow again. Good list, Strawman]
But I would agree most atheists and agnostics are portrayed negatively on Amercan TV, except for PBS of course.
posted
I have to admit, I haven't watched enough of anything to make much comment. (I've seen one season of the Simpsons, two episodes of Friends and three of Seinfeld)
posted
Maybe most people who are identified as atheists come across negatively -- I don't know, and I'll have to watch closer in the future.
But I still say that most characters in most shows could easily be athiests or agnostic, but are never identified either way.
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quote: CStroman, in those shows you mentioned, most of the people are never identified as believers or not, although Lt. Curtis is definitely a believer.
True, but wouldn't the actions of the people help define what their beliefs are?
What do their actions lead us to believe?
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posted
They aren't identified either way, because when push comes to shove... they are portrayed as celebrating christmas with their family, or praying for guidance, or something of the sort.
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Tom, you are correct about Monica and Ross; they are Jewish. There have been several episodes that foreground Ross' beliefs (e.g. "The One With the Holiday Armadillo.")
Chad, Grace of Will and Grace is Jewish. That comes up on the show at least once per episode, often more.
I'm reasonably certain that Carla on Scrubs is Catholic.
Judaism was a pretty major repeating theme of Seinfeld, although never in a serious way.
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posted
The cremonies are traditional, but they aren't merely traditional. Worf absolutely believes Klingon teachings about the afterlife (Stovokor, or however you spell it,) and in the eventual return of Kahless.
And all the Bajorans on DS9, including Kira were deeply religious. And not just the fanatics. The portrayal of the religious conflicts on Bajor was pretty nuanced.
[ September 24, 2004, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Vera ]
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Was she? I don't recall ever seeing anything about her beliefs, except insofar as she wasn't Jewish. But then, I didn't really follow Seinfeld that closely.
quote:Despite being Jewish, is there ever indication that Jerry believes anything?
Not that I noticed (again, didn't watch that often), but then, I think that has a lot more to do with the format of the show than anything else. I would guess that there have been very few sitcoms out there that focus deeply on the religious beliefs of the characters.
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If a person can watch an entire season of the Simpsons without noticing, perhaps you do have to go pretty deep before they'll notice.
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They don't have to show a deep belief, just some belief. Almost none of the shows ever talk about the family going to church, any church activity, any type of church participation at all. Nothing about religious education for the kids. Most of the people would be non-practicing Christians. Just look at their behavior. The few times religious ceremonies are show, it seems like it is mainly used to show what hypocrites the people are.
Also, Joan of Arcadia, just like Touched by an Angle, are not Christian. They never mention Christ. You are making some assumptions if you think they are.
quote:You don't have to go very deep to learn if a person believes in God (in any form).
True. But you were making a point before that if the people in these shows are believers, they believe in such a way that it doesn't impact their lives in any way we can see. My point is just that, while that may be true, the parts of their lives that highlight their belief are most likely not the funny parts.
quote: Joan of Arcadia, just like Touched by an Angel, are not Christian
While I agree with this statement, I think others here were just talking about whether or not American is seen as religious -- not necessarily limited to the Christian religion.
posted
Hatrack has offered many epiphanies for me, and one of them has been that while the religious tend to look out and see a world that is getting further and further from God, whether it be the government, schools, or the media, non-religious see a world that is far more religious than that, in all the above areas. I just think it is interesting how much where someone is standing effects their POV.
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quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Elaine was an atheist. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Was she? I don't recall ever seeing anything about her beliefs, except insofar as she wasn't Jewish. But then, I didn't really follow Seinfeld that closely.
She dated that one guy that was a Fundie who said she was going to hell. I think that's where she proclaimed herself an atheist.
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Ah, I must have missed that one. Not terribly surprising, though, since I missed most of them.
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Puddy was great! And that was episode was hilarious too.
When the two of them go in to see the Catholic Priest,
"She's going to Hell" "I'm not going to Hell!" ... "Wait, you're living together but you aren't married?" "Yes" "Well than it's clear, you're both going to Hell".
posted
As a CSI fan, let me toss in my two cents...
quote:As far as atheists on TV, isn't Peterson's character, Grissom, on the original CSI an atheist scientist? He comes across well.
Grissom is a lapsed Catholic; he believes in God, but doesn't care for organized religion.
As for the others, there's no explicit mention of any religion, one way or the other, so I think it's not really accurate to say it's a positive depiction of atheists/agnostics.
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Is there something to the fact that most of these shows take place in the public sphere, with the exception of friends-- which made a point not to talk about anything important-- and while religion shapes public discourse, it's not something that is directly appropriate to lord around when one is at the precinct or at the practice. If we are supposed to know characters by their deeds, and Jesus is supposed to know them by their faith, then we make our own judgements by the character's actions, and we can only speculate and the writers can only know the characters relation to organized religion.
On the West Wing, Toby is obervantly Jewish, Donna was raised Protestant, Josh raised Jewish but is rusty, the pollster was Quaker, and you can't get through an episode where the President or the first lady don't wrestle with being Catholic. The irony in that this show is concerns the highest levels of government calls scrutiny. Religion is important in the highest levels and at the family levels, but in the middle, it's something not talked about. And for the most part, while we don't have characters who talk about being in one denomination or another, we do have characters in almost all shows who are concerned about doing the right thing, and not just because it will turn a tidy profit.
It could be the case that once you open the door to strict interpretation of organized religious doctrine, and everyone is fully faithful, the show is over, the show loses it's quality of thought and questioning, the characters become predictable, even ordained, and unless the story concerns someone's persecution, we are without a plot.
quote:Hatrack has offered many epiphanies for me, and one of them has been that while the religious tend to look out and see a world that is getting further and further from God, whether it be the government, schools, or the media, non-religious see a world that is far more religious than that, in all the above areas.
I don't know... as a person of no faith, I look at the world and see it moving further away from God little by little while still having a lot of religion left. So perhaps the two POVs are much the same.
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quote: As for the others, there's no explicit mention of any religion, one way or the other, so I think it's not really accurate to say it's a positive depiction of atheists/agnostics.
I would say that it's not a positive depiction of atheists/agnositics.
It's a positive depiction of not believing/or acting in a religious way.
They don't have to be atheist/agnostic. I don't think it's "if their not religious then they are atheist/agnostic" by assumption.
That's just my opinion.
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