posted
Prior to Kat's thread which I read this morning (I'm not sure when it was started... I'm out of sync with most US time zones), I'd never heard of "Wicked". Since I've come to work today, I've seen references to it in three separate webpages. I feel so left out.
I better buy the book or something.
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posted
I would've been left out but I saw them on The Today Show or some such a few weeks back. I'm ahead of the game!
Posts: 5422 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Will some of you explain to me why you liked the book? I've heard several people tell me that they just loved the book (including OSC and some English majors in my grad program...)
I hated it. I felt like he didn't tie up ANY of the loose ends that he created....
Anyway, that's my rant. I have heard that the musical is awesome though and I've seen some of the great visuals, so I need to check it out. Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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Don't you think someone who's actually seen the musical...in its entirety...has more basis for judgment than someone who saw a two minute Tony performance?
(Let's not bring up family credentials as a basis for judging musicals. I'll cream ya every time)
Considering over 8 people in my family are professional musicians, or have been at one time...
Including 3 opera singers, one of whom performed at the Met,and who's teacher was a very famous voice instructor....
And the fact that I auditioned for the DSO when I was 17....and came in second, out of 101 applicants...
You don't know anything about me, really, so don't be so sure.
My point is that I am perfectly capable, far more than most, of judging music...live or canned.
Once again, I didn't say not to see it, did I? I simply said that they didn't do a good job at the Tonys.
Do you disagree with that?
I KNOW the Tonys are primetime...my uncle was the President of the Dancers Union on Broadway for 4 years, too. I have seen a few shows....and once again...
My point was that Wicked was fairly mainstream. Nothing more, nothing less.
I saw the woman who played Glinda on PBS the other day, and she was excellent. She was singing all sorts of classic show tunes, ad really got into it...not only were the vocals FAR better than her performance at the Tonys, but her acting on stage was great too.
JenniK, my wife, wants to see it....adn while I was less than impressed with the performance at the Tonys I would still go and see it with her....sometimes a performer has a bad day. It happens to everyone, eventually.
After seeing that PBS special, I think it would be worth giving it a chance....
And I have heard good things from people who saw it live too.
posted
I just wrote a long message out...but I lost it, dammit.
I played Baritone, French Horn, Trumpet, Aux Percussion (mainly Timpani), Flute, Clarinet, Saxophone (which was my worst), and Tuba.
I began learning Trombone, but ran out of time to really learn how to play it.
My band in High School was nationally ranked, and I was first chair flute.
We were on national TV 11 times in 3 years.....
And marched in the Orange Bowl, and the Fiesta Bowl.
And I was the male soloist for honors choir, as well as having 3 flute solos for them....gotta love that. Talk about a busy concert!
I only play the Flute now, and I hurt my vocal cords years ago singing with Bronchitis, so now I croak....? Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I said family credentials as a basis for judging musicals ...and you've only mentioned instrument playing and/or opera.
I've been in over 30 musicals, including some where I was director and vocal director.
I've seen over 18 Broadway musicals.
I've seen over 100 other musicals.
I've been in over 30 musicals, including some where I was director and vocal director.
My mother is a voice major and has performed in numerous musicals.
My father has a MA in Music and not only used to do the vocal direction for Kutztown University musicals, but has also written lyrics and music for children's musicals, and directed a few shows himself.
My SISTER has been in over 20 musicals.
My dog sings really well, whenever somebody strange comes to the house.
I would like to point out, also, that I never accused you of not having the proper credentials until you brought up your credentials in the first place. I simply said you shouldn't judge the whole musical based on that one performance (as you had in another thread) and then you countered by saying you "know a thing or three about music" -- so if you're not telling people the show is probably bad, what are you doing?
The irony is, I completely agree that they performed horribly at the Tony's. But Idina Menzel still won best actress.
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posted
Kwea, that's impressive! I wish I could play that many instruments. Hardly anybody in my family does music... actually, nobody. But it's a major part of my life, it's my one passion, is singing.
(edit: My little sister does a lot of music as well, but I was referring to relatives who are older than me.)
posted
Leonide, I just wanted to let you know a little more about Kwea's family and their musical background. My mother is a lyric coleratura (spelling?), my grandmother was a genuine contralto... my mother was one of 2 students of her voice teacher who did not continue to the MET. [ Dolores Hope ( wife of Bob Hope) was the other.] My origional college major was musical theater. After auditioning, and realizing that having "mommy" as a voice teacher was laughed at in New York, I changed it to something else I'm good at;languages (I speak 7.) I have seen Phantom on Broadway 13 times....and seen 19 other Broadway musicals. I have been in 14 musicals and been the musical director for 3. I auditioned for Les Mis when I was 17. I obviously didn't get the part. I have performed with the Voices of Liberty at Walt Disney World Florida as a cast member. Musical Theater is my passion.. my first solo performance was as Annie ... when I was 6 years old! My entire life has revolved around music....and yes, I can even sing light opera. My Grandmother performed with Leontine Price ( for those that don't know, a famous soprano in her day.), and my mother still conducts vocal music although she has retired from teaching.
Kwea can add his own bit to this, but his origional point was not to say the entire show would suck, but to say that with what he saw on the Tony's he was not impressed by that particular performance, as they did "go flat" just a bit in several places. I agreed as i tend to cringe when I hear pitches that are "off". (I'm told that happens often to people with perfect pitch, but as I'm not one of those all I can say is that it does grate a little on the ears when you hear unintentional discord. I thought the overall performance on the Tony's was very good and still want to see the show - based on seeing that little clip at the Tony's. I would never tell anyone not to go to a Broadway Show for any reason....well, except the nuns of St. Mary's when they wanted to take a group of their school girls to see Miss Saigon ... I didn't think they'd appreciate the whole plot of the musical!(I suggested another musical that was appropriate for a group of Catholic school girls instead .)
Posts: 325 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
This is Kwea..I forgot to have JenniK log out...
Leonide, the point is that you DID accuse me of not having those credentials, even though I do.
I didn't mention them until you posted
quote: BUT YOU SHOULDN'T JUDGE THE ENTIRE MUSICAL ON ONE PERFORMANCE.
kill.
That is a little more than defending the musical, don't you think?
So I mentioned that I knew more than a little bit about music, as you seemed to be challanging my view of their performance.
Then you told me that I shouldn't challange you on musical knowledge....even though I had not done so up to that point. Nor an I doing so now...lol..
Damn, that is a lot of plays!
But you seemed to think that your family had a lock on musical knowledge, when you knew nothing about me, or my family.
In fact, we have been involved (one way or another) in the Broadway scene for 30 years or so....My uncle, after of long run of dancing in many Broadway plays, taught for years, and eventually became the President of the Dancers Union.
And I was in the pit for 4 musicals, with solos in all of them, while still in high school.
I would still go see Wicked because I have seen her in other performances, and I was really impressed.
And because people, including you , have told me it is worth it.
I think you should start a thread about your musical family.....I would love to hear what your opinions are about some of those plays, and who your favorites have been.
BTW, I have seen 6 musicals on Braodway in the past 4-5 years, and been to 3 others at other venues.
Sounds like we have something in common, doesn't it?
posted
I certainly wasn't commenting on your credentials in that post (i'm assuming that is Kwea, not JenniK in that last post) -- if everyone walked around basing the quality of musicals/books/movies on one little excerpt they had seen/heard/read...a lot of good musicals/books/movies would not get recognition. I was arguing that No One (since you brought them up -- not even someone with credentials out the wazoo) should judge a SHOW based on one Performance from that show. You seemed to be saying "the show doesn't look very good, I saw a performance at the Tony's and it was bad" and I said "You haven't seen the whole show, I wouldn't judge until you've actually seen the whole thing"
It's like reading a passage from the book, not liking it, and saying the book itself was crap. It's not fair, and i don't think anyone would disagree with me that you need to judge in whole, not in part.
I don't know why we're still arguing the Tony performance, since we all agree it was stinky. The point is, whether you see the musical and Love it or Despise it worse than anything, it's not fair to condemn it on one performance...Which you did and still are denying, which is odd....
quote: Goody, I saw a bit of Wicked, and while I heard that the peole on TV during the tonys didn't do well compared to the show, it was SOOO bad that I will never go to see it.
Ever.
Too bad, because I liked the idea.
Maybe I'll try the book.
Kwea
(bold mine)
I apologize for jumping on you about your family credentials, but I get really upset with uninformed opinions, and whether or not your family created Broadway out of a speck of dust, my opinion is that one should not judge an entire musical on one song. Seeing the musical gets you the credentials, IMO
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posted
And that is your opinion...which I am not trying to change, or refuse you the right to hold..
Which seems to be more than you are willing to allow me.
I didn't like you challenging me on my credentials, since I only mentioned them to defend my right to judge that music....the performance was terrible.
When someone tanks on TV, it IS fair to judge that. And the play gets judged as well, as they are the same performers and the same songs.
As far as the comment I made in another thread, I meant it...but then I remembered that I had seen the woman who had performed Glinda do other things, and I liked them, so I decided that I would give it a chance...since my wife wanted to see it anyway.
I guess I flip-flopped...
But to be honest I didn't like your tone, so maybe I got a bit defensive.... from the kill comment to the personal challange of my credentials. ( I know you weren't serious about the "kill", but it was a bit too much. It amde it seem like you were completely disregarding my right to an opinion at all)
My biggest point at this time is that you should be a little less snide when commenting about people you don't know well. I don't care how many semi-professional (or professional) productions you have done....at least make an effort to see what someone means before you make personal attacks on them, or their credentials.
You didn't ask why I didn't like it...perhaps there were other reasons I wouldn't go see it (there were, at first), but that I didn't want to go into them for fear of going on too long about it.
You didn't ask why I thought I was a good judge of music...not that I have to be to have my own opinion.
You said, without knowing a thing about my family or my history, that your family would "cream" mine in musical knowledge...or on musicals...implying that your opinion was far more important than mine....since your family was so much more qualified than mine....
Who you don't know, and never asked about.
I have heard good things...and I have heard some bad things....about this play. I would go see it with my wife, but not alone, and not just because of one poor performance (although that DID play a big part in my feelings about it).
There are so many other plays I would want to see first....and Wicked isn't really high on my list.
Jenni really wants to see it though, so I will be seeing it, more likely than not.
I don't really know a lot about you or your family either....which is why I haven't commented on your "qualifications"....but it sounds like we all, both of our familes, really love music in general, and musicals in particular.
I would still like to hear about your opinions on different musicals, as you seem to be very interested in them.
Perhaps another time.
BTW...I was refering to my comments in this thread for most of it. I wasn't denying I had said that at another time, but that I had not said any such thing in this thread, since I had changed my mind. Jenni reminded me that the woman I had seen on PBS was the one in Wicked, which is why I changed my opinion...at least a bit....) Kwea
posted
We're going to have to agree to disagree. Though I can't see how you still can't admit that it's not fair to condemn a musical based on one performance. I never challenged your right to the opinion that the Tony performance was bad, but to condemn the whole musical? you still haven't explained to me how that's reasonable.
I did not bring up credentials -- you did. I said it wasn't fair to judge, not that your judgment had no juice to back it up. There's a difference, and you brought up family credentials, which was the first snide comment i saw from either of us, though i certainly won't deny to following up with my own.
Basically: you said that you wouldn't see a musical based on a performance you saw, i said that wasn't very fair. You said that the performance was very, very poor and i said that it wasn't very fair to judge the whole musical based on that one performance. you said you weren't doing that, then proceeded to (rather out of left field) say that you certainly had the credentials to judge a musicals worthiness.
I again point out that i wasn't initally questioning your credentials, or your right to condemn the performance, but rather the fairness in judging the entire musical.
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posted
I think it may have just been one of the famous "misinterpetation" situations...I thought it was a bit snide for you to order me not to hold an opinion, and then to dismiss my opinion by saying kill.
If that isn't a bit rude, then what is?
So I mentioned that I knew a bit about music, and could form my own opinions...thankyouverymuch.
I didn't say you didn't have a right to have an opinion...or that my faimliy would "cream" yours......
I don't know you, or your family...nor do I think that mine is any more qualified (or less, either) to judge music than your.
You implied...hell, you flat out said...that yours was.
I think that I can judge, at least a bit, the quality of music I am hearing, and since I have so many plays I want to see, I haver to have some sort of screening process. I can't afford to see them all.
So I don't think it is too much of a strech for me to say, based on a small performance, that I won't bother seeing one....since I would have to see it in place of one I really want to see.
4 of my friends have seen it, and 3 liked it...but the one that didn't is the one who's opinion matters the most to me, as he is a very talented musician and we have similar tastes in music.
It seemed to me that you were dismissing my opinion, shouting at me , as if I didn't know what I was talking about.
I agree that my opinion would hold more weight if i had seen the whole play, but that doesn't mean that I can't come to at least a peliminary decision, based upon the performance I HAVE hear (and dislike).
I am glad to hear that the play is better than that performance, adn after seeing more from her I am looking forward to seeing it .... eventually.
I didn't justmake a snap decision...I made a conditional decision, and when I found out that I LIKED the woman I saw, I changed my mind and decided to see it with my wife.
How many times have you seen it? You really seem to like it.
Maybe we can have a Hatrack screening? Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
If it's a matter of misinterpreting, then I think we still are.
I don't love the musical, by any means. I don't think I'd spend the money to see it again, unless I could get better seats. I don't particularly like all of Stephen Schwartz's music in the piece, nor some (most) of his lyrics.
My point was never to convince you that the musical was worthwhile and that you'd love it and why don't you love it?!? My point was (and I'll admit to having worked off your opinion in that previous thread, not having realized that it changed) that it isn't fair to judge the entire musical based on one performance. Which i've said again and again.
We've all heard the addage "don't judge a book by its cover." i think it applies readily here. I was *never* ordering you not to have an opinion, in fact, as has happened many times tonight, you misread the post. It wasn't directed at you, it was more like a screamed warning to those who might again read your words and be swayed by what I saw as an uninformed opinion. If somebody tells my friend not to read a book, and i know that that somebody hasn't actually read the book, isn't it my duty to point out that fact?
I think it was pretty evident that my family credentials comment was in direct response to your snide: "i MIGHT know a thing or three about music" which was clearly meant to say that i probably didn't, and therefore wasn't qualified to question your opinion which i wasn't even doing in the first place!
quote: So I mentioned that I knew more than a little bit about music, as you seemed to be challanging my view of their performance.
I think this still hasn't been made clear...I wasn't. I didn't. Not until you said that you played 6 instruments, etc. did I question your background in music. Feel however you like about the performance, everyone's entitled to an opinion. I just don't think anybody - Broadway officianado or tone deaf, should judge a musical based off of a performance.
quote: You didn't ask why I thought I was a good judge of music...not that I have to be to have my own opinion.
You do in order to have an informed opinion, which is what I've been getting at all along. You also, primarily, have to have actually seen the thing you're criticizing.
The Tony performances are never as good as they could be, because the actors don't get a lot of time to rehearse on a new stage, with a new orchestra and set crew. Frequently the orchestra is off from what the actors are accustomed to. In addition, that particular number from the show was a terrible choice for their performance, because it comes at a very emotionally charged place in the musical, and seeing the number out of context would make *anyone* think the actors were acting strangely. Even me, who had just seen the musical myself, thought the actresses looked ridiculous, even though they hadn't really acted any different when I'd seen them! It was a difficult number to do in adverse conditions, and the fact that Defying Gravity is an *incredibly* demanding song vocally, and that Idina had already done it earlier that day, and was undoubtedly nervous about her nomination and the performance itself, all contributed to the number not being up to par.
*is tired*
See whatever you like, that wasn't the point to begin with. Change your opinion, that's fine, it wasn't what I was talking about. In the beginning, I was under the impression that you were still advocating that people not see the musical, (if you read that old thread, you'll see that is basically what you were doing) and I'm sorry I didn't realize (since you began this thread again criticizing the Tony performance, which was your basis for not wanting to see the musical before) that that all had changed.
Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote: You didn't ask why I thought I was a good judge of music...not that I have to be to have my own opinion. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You do in order to have an informed opinion, which is what I've been getting at all along. You also, primarily, have to have actually seen the thing you're criticizing
And who decides on what is informed?
You?
I don't really care, one way of another at this loint.
I have SEVERAL reasons I didn't originally want to see it....you only knew about one, and were rather rude to me...whether you meant to be or not.
Also, I KNOW we were misunderstanding each other....that was my point.
I have already said that, after seing more of the performers work, I changed my mind. That isn't being colse-minded, it is being able to admit that you don't know everything about it from one performance.
I assumed that you like it because of your defence of it...or what seemed like a defence of it, anyway.
My mistake.
I was merely stating what those misconceptions were, from the beginnig. I thought you were disagreeing wiht my opinion...as is your right....and that you didn't feel I had a right to my own opinion...which you do,even now.
You feel I need to be "informed", even though you don't admit that I sauid I had checked into it, and had multiple reasons for not wanting to see it at first.....I just mentioned one in passing.
I have to decide what plays to see based on limited information. I can't afford to see them all.
And if I don't care for the only peice I have heard performed...and one of my friends who has seen it didn't like it either...and the performers don't do well in a very public performance of what is presumably the best parts of it (why else would they choose that peice for the Tonys, right?)....
posted
I can't believe I'm doing this, since I thought I explained myself fairly clearly in my last post, and you still seemed to misread 99% of it.
1)
quote: I have already said that, after seing more of the performers work, I changed my mind. That isn't being colse-minded, it is being able to admit that you don't know everything about it from one performance
I didn't call you close-minded, and I wasn't insinuating that you were. I wasn't commending or berating you for changing your opinion, it's up to you whether you do that or not.
2)
quote: I assumed that you like it because of your defence of it...or what seemed like a defence of it, anyway.
My mistake
This is clearly meant to be a snide remark, when I wasn't at all criticizing you on misreading my like for the musical. It's pretty easy to think that I loved it, I wasn't faulting you for that. I was merely explaining that I didn't, in fact, to point out that my opinion of your judgment was not skewed by my being obsessed by the musical.
3)
quote: and that you didn't feel I had a right to my own opinion...which you do,even now.
Again, let me point out that since you are no longer giving your opinion as a reason why someone shouldn't see the musical...and you did:
As a response to Goody Schrivener's post:
quote:Spamalot opens December 21 in Chicago and runs through January 16.
Other shows playing this season include Richard Chamberlain in Scrooge, Sandy Duncan in The King and I, Mamma Mia, Evita, Oklahoma and Wicked (which from the little bit on Broadway in Chicago's website looks to be an adaptation of the Gregory Maguire novel).
I could go so broke this year just on stage shows......
Goody
You advised:
quote: Goody, I saw a bit of Wicked, and while I heard that the peole on TV during the tonys didn't do well compared to the show, it was SOOO bad that I will never go to see it.
Ever.
Too bad, because I liked the idea.
Maybe I'll try the book.
Kwea
and she replied thanking you for the advice.
Whether or not your opinion changed I had no way of knowing, but I certainly was not off in assuming it had stayed the same given your post:
quote: They even performed (poorly, very poorly) at the Tony awards on TV
in this thread.
The fact is, my point is still valid, because you advised a woman not to see a musical that you yourself hadn't seen. And i don't think that's fair. Luckily, you didn't misrepresent your lack of knowledge about the show in its entirety.
4)
quote:You feel I need to be "informed", even though you don't admit that I sauid I had checked into it, and had multiple reasons for not wanting to see it at first.....I just mentioned one in passing.
I didn't say that YOU needed to be informed...I said that one needed to be informed to make an informed decision. I was actually commenting on how, given your musical background, you did have the cajones to back up your condemnation of the one performance. However, I added on that you also need to have seen the entire show to have an opinion on the show.
5)
quote: And if I don't care for the only peice I have heard performed...and one of my friends who has seen it didn't like it either...and the performers don't do well in a very public performance of what is presumably the best parts of it (why else would they choose that peice for the Tonys, right?)....
Then I don't think I am making a snap judgement.
I never accused you of making a snap judgment, i accused you of pushing your opinion on others with no real experience with the show to back it up. It turned out your opinion had changed, and I rescinded my accusation. You can't seem to admit that, or back off. I apologized, I acknowledged the misunderstandings, and all you can do is continue to say "You're telling me not to have an opinion! I can have an opinion!"
5)
quote: And I don't care if you agree with me about it.
Quite evident given the amount of time and word count you've put into this thread.
posted
And you still seem to be intent on telling me what I meant.
And being wrong about it,too.
quote:This is clearly meant to be a snide remark
It wasn't, I was saying that I had mistaken your point, and your opinion of the play.
quote: I never accused you of making a snap judgment, i accused you of pushing your opinion on others with no real experience with the show to back it up
I haev heard more than one song from it....my friends have seen it....and I wasn't impresed with the music, or the one live preformance I saw.
And that somehow equates to being uninformed (according to you) and pushing my opinion off on people,......who posted on a public board, looking for input.
You didn't say why you disagreed (although you have since then), you didn't state what you did or did not like yourself, offering a different opinon.
You simply attacked me and my family, although you did it rather passive-aggessivly.
quote: You can't seem to admit that, or back off. I apologized, I acknowledged the misunderstandings, and all you can do is continue to say "You're telling me not to have an opinion! I can have an opinion!"
I wasn't doing that at all...I was saying how the misunderstanding started, what I felt you were saying in your first post.
I also said that we were misunderstanding each other, and I tried to patch things up several times....I guess I shouldn't have bothered.
quote: And I don't care if you agree with me about it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quite evident given the amount of time and word count you've put into this thread.
I don't care what you have to say about my right to have an opinion, and I don't need your permission to continue to have one either.
I type fast (although not well,, ), so it didn't seem like a lot of effort to me.
I did care about you, a bit, because I have always read your posts and while we don't know each other well, I saw no reason to alienate you if it was aviodable.
Sorry. For some reason, I read Tom's post in a Valley Girl accent. That's probably because I listened to a This American Life with MoonUnit Zappa yesterday.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Well, I neevr saw that, and I heard it in that accent as well...lol...
OK.....I was tired last night, and got too defensive.
I don't think we are too far apart, really, and I am sorry if things got carried away a bit last night.
The play isn't high on my list, but as you pointed out I haven't seen or heard much of it either. I listened to a few other songs and wasn't that impressed either, but that is fine....eveyone has their own tastes.
I will probably enjoy it when Jenni drags me to it...lol...
I really wasn't trying to be sarcastic them I said "My mistake"....I wrote My bad, but it seemed too cheesy in print... , so I thought that would sound better.
quote:Would you two knock it out? You're acting like wicked witches?
Tom, perhaps given the subject that started it, this is appropriate?? LOL Which one gets to be Elphaba?
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Goody, in case you haven't been up on this thread..lol...
I still don't like Wicked as much as the other plays you mentioned, but I recently saw a performance on PBS by the woman who is playing Glinda....and she was excellent.
It isn't high on my list, still...I have heard mixed reviews, although more good than bad....but it might be worth checking out.
AFTER the rest of them, IMO (such as it is)....lol...
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Actually I have been following and was kind of stunned when it was posted that this whole thing started in response to my mentioning Wicked coming to Chicago early next year. But I just couldn't pass up Tom's comment LOL
I am still planning to see Wicked as well as Spamalot. Mom wants to see Evita but I don't know if I'll have the money for it. I think I've missed out on The King and I, and the others are rapidly losing my interest LOL. I'll post my opinions once I've been to the shows.
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Oh I completely understood that. No worries there. I just thought it was amazing that one single comment could turn into a multipage... um... spitting match, for lack of a better term.
And I just flipped to WTTW as well to see if the documentary is on here..... seems to be about Broadway in general, at least here. I'm on a donor acknowledgement break at the moment.
I wasn't at my best either -- it seems whenever I decide to post anything more than frivolity I end up getting completely carried away.
It's all good.
I didn't really like the music much myself when I first bought the CD (prior to seeing the shoW). It fits in with the show pretty well, but not much of it works on its own, imo. I hope you do enjoy the show, but I think probably you'll have the same problems with it as I do.
I always seem to fight the most with people who are most like me Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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