posted
To me, it's odd that people are so willing to post threads about mishaps in Iraq. Yet, there were 50 Iraqi soldiers that were summarily assasinated yesterday, and no one said a thing about it to my knowledge. Perhaps no one is willing to admit the level of evil we are fighting over there. I find it hard to believe that any person would willingly hand over the lives of over four dozen of their own countrymen without being absolutely and completely EVIL. I find it hard to believe that such people should be allowed to go on without any resistance whatsoever. That's why we're in Iraq right now. We are fighting the most hopelessly evil group of people the world has seen in ages. I'm not talking about muslims, I'm talking about the people who kidnap innocents and parade them on TV, knowing full well that their demands will not be met, and then publicly beheading them. This is evil. This is not defense of their lands, this is not a people trying to save their way of life, this is EVIL! If you can't admit that, then I really think there is something wrong.
End absolute last rant ever (I hope).
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I believe Abu Musab Zarqawi, who is not an Iraqi, has claimed responsibility. Not that this makes the act any less horrible, but it may indicate that the split between Iraqi insurgents and foreign guerillas may be accelerating. Ultimately this (the split, not the massacre) will be for the good. But they can cause a lot of trouble in the meantime.
posted
I was under the impression people were getting tired of threads about how our invasion of Iraq is going awry...
I'd also like to point out that Zarqawi's group claimed responsibility for this attack, and many of those men are not Iraqis but rather foreigners, and thus would not be killing their own countrymen. They were likely foreigners drawn into Iraq by the instability we created there. Furthermore, those killed were not innocents, but rather soldiers - soldiers in an army that had previously been battling Zarqawi's forces.
You certainly can call such an attack evil, but killing a bunch of enemy soldiers from an army out to destroy you is nothing America hasn't done. It's a fairly common evil across the world - one of the worst, but nevertheless commonly accepted by those claiming a practical need to win at all costs.
posted
I'm sure there are some Iraqi's fighting and assisting Zarqawi. Yes there are foreigners, but there are also local Iraqi's with the same goal: A Sunni Islamic State with a Wahabbist (What the Taliban instituted) agenda and laws of Shariah.
Those fighting aren't fighting for the "freedom of Iraq". They are fighting for God (in their minds) and making their interpretation of God's laws to be the laws of the land.
In their minds, if you aren't for their cause, then you are an enemy combatant whether you be a civillian, policeman, or soldier.
My only hope is that with each Iraqi death, the resolve and backbone of the People there get's stronger and harder against those types of peoples and beliefs.
Idyllicly, it would be nice to see the people actually take Zarqawi themselves and his followers and turn on them.
Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
"I find it hard to believe that any person would willingly hand over the lives of over four dozen of their own countrymen without being absolutely and completely EVIL."
Hm. How do you feel about the French, Russian, and American revolutions?
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posted
Okay, these soldiers were UNARMED!!! No weapons, no resistance possible. They were on their way home after training, got ambushed, pulled out of their busses, shot in the back of the head and lined up into three rows of dead bodies. Explain to me how that is something we would do in a war? Explain to me how that is something that happened in the revolutionary war? My point wasn't that their countrymen turned them over, though it seems this may be the case, but rather that evil should be seen as evil and it should be rooted out and destroyed. I don't care what form evil takes, it should be destroyed. I'm saying that right now in Iraq we have a battlefield that lets us do this, and I personally think anyone who has a problem with us being in Iraq right now should think about that. Would you prefer these terrorists come to America and do this kind of crap? Because if Iraq wasn't going on right now, it is possible that that is exactly what would happen.
Okay, that's my last rant. Sorry.
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posted
I don't like getting angry about stuff. But this really bothers me. I'm not appologizing for what I'm saying, but the anger that goes with it.
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posted
That's why the whole "sensitive" war thing scares me a bit. There's nothing "sensative" in the actions you refer to Boris. I'm with you on this one. Sad, very sad.
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quote:I don't care what form evil takes, it should be destroyed.
What if it comes in the form of 50 unarmed Iraqi soldiers preparing to kill you and assist in the enslavement of your people and destruction of your culture?
There is a problem with your view, Boris: It's the same view of the people that you are calling EVIL. The only difference is which side you are on.
posted
Let's think about which one actually IS evil here for a second. I don't care what the guy who chops off an innocent person's head thinks when he does it. I don't care what the person who shoots 50 unarmed men in the back of the head THINKS when he does it. Whatever they are thinking when they do it, it doesn't matter. It's the ACT that matters. Would a group of people who want to do that which is good perform an act that is just as evil as it could possibly be? Don't tell me to look at this crap from the eyes of a terrorist. I'm sick of hearing that garbage. A terrorist is a person who KILLS to get what they WANT! I don't care what anyone says, that's EVIL! Do I want them to die? No. Do I want the middle east culture to disapear? Only the parts that involve the murder of innocents. What do I want? I want people to quit being stupid, quit saying,"Well, we need to look at this through the eyes of our enemy." No. I am NOT going to look at this through the eyes of someone who has the capability of hanging a sword over a contract worker's head and asking them to beg their governments for their lives. The second THEY step back and say, "This is wrong". That's when I'm willing to start seeing through their eyes. I want people to start calling evil evil and start doing something to get rid of it instead of letting it grow and gain strength. That's what I want.
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posted
Evil's too simple a word. It makes me feel morally exausted. This whole war is like that. Thousands dead... Children dying Prison scandals Allawi shooting several prisoners in the head... Bombings and attrocities on both sides. They are all evil... The whole lot of them War in general is dirty, horrible, evil and it destroys what I care about!
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I normally don't read/post in these kinds of threads, but this one caught me by surprise: I hadn't even heard of this.
Yes, it was an evil thing. Murder in cold blood is bad.
But why wasn't this all over the news? I don't watch it alot, but I haven't seen anything on this I'm sure this would boil lots of blood, but I didn't see anything.
I mean, I'm sorry if I'm derailing the thread, but honestly, most of this has become second-page news: the beheadings, the murders, the screw-ups on both sides, everything. When paranoia and death and bloodshed comes with the morning bagel, it becomes about as plain as the bread. People skip over it to read the comics. The media filled the airwaves with it, and we just got sick of it. So the front page is filled with a full-length picture of Bush or Kerry, and scandals and other pointless things. [/rant]
Posts: 873 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Wait a moment... Why were they unarmed? Why weren't they, like foreign civilians in Iraq being protected better? It's like... some leaky boat or soemthing. Endless problems and just being here hearing about it and not being able to do a thing to change it is driving me NUTS with constant rage.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote: GWB wanted to get rid of Saddam Hussein. He ordered people killed to accomplish that. So he's a terrorist too?
Ya know, I specifically asked for people not to respond to my rant because I knew someone would try to twist my words into something that favored their political views. I honestly don't appreaciate it. It's rude, it's underhanded, and I demand an apology.
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Boris, I didn't post on this because I'm sick of arguing about it. Yes, its horrible. Perhaps it was even evil.
But the fact of the matter is that Iraq is a country that is occupied by a foreign army which invaded without just provocation. Those Iraqi's who are cooperating with the US, are viewed by many of their countrymen as traitors. That view is understandable.
In WW II, there were many among the French who collaborated with the Nazis. The free French fought against them just as they fought against the German troops. When the allies invaded France, we fought along side one groups of the French and against another.
In the American revolution, there were colonists who fought with the British. Were our founding fathers evil for attacking their countrymen who stood along side British troops?
I do not support Zarqawi or anyone else who uses violence to achieve their ends. Nonetheless, I am forced to admit that what Zarqawi's men did in killing those 50 Iraqi soldiers is considered legal under international law.
If the US were invaded and occupied by a foreign power, would you fight against the occupying army? If some Americans decided to cooperate with the foreigners, would you consider them traitors? If the foreign power started training US men and women to fight with them and started putting them on the front lines, would you stop the fight?
If we knew the location of an Al Qaida training camp, would you wait until the trainees were armed and prepared to attack.
Once again, I do not support the methods of these men, but before you condemn them you must ask if you would do the samething.
We as Americans must realize that we invaded a sovereign nation without just cause. As long as we continue to occupy that country, our presence will provoke horrors like this one. We are a destabilizing influence. We are inspiring the opposition and will be until we apologize and start making amends instead of defending the indefensible. We are as much or more responsible for the deaths of those 50 men as Zarqawi and his followers.
[ October 25, 2004, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Under what international law is OK to summarily execute prisoners of war?
Did I say it was justifiable to execute prisoners of war?
As best I know, we were talking about an attack on a group of soldiers at a training camp, I said nothing about executions ans kidnappings.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Did I say it was justifiable to execute prisoners of war?
As best I know, we were talking about an attack on a group of soldiers at a training camp, I said nothing about executions ans kidnappings.
Yes, you did, when you said, "I am forced to admit that what Zarqawi's men did in killing those 50 Iraqi soldiers is considered legal under international law."
quote:Col. Jassem Mohammed Alaiwa, commander of the Iraqi national guard, said the soldiers were killed "execution-style" -- along with their four drivers. They had been forced to lie down and were shot in the head. The killings occurred about 80 miles east of Baghdad.
posted
And Dag, You didn't answer my question. If a foreign army was occupying the US -- what measures would you justify in fighting that army?
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
I posted this in a great deal of anger and unhappiness at attitudes towards this war. I think people are justifying acts of evil and I think that is wrong. I was stating an opinion and after writing it, realized that there was probably going to be someone who wanted to twist my words to suit their views. That is honestly one of my biggest pet peves. It's an overly agressive debate tactic that should not be used. The fact that someone did that is justification enough for me asking people not to respond. But I guess this subject runs deep in too many people for them to be quiet about it...(Sorry about demanding an apology. That was me getting to ticked off too fast and not stopping to think about it).
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posted
Honestly, if there were people trained by a foreign military in an ocupation of the US, if I had an opportunity to capture them, I'd capture them. I'd let them face trial in court as is required by the constitution. If they had guns and were trying to kill me, I might fight back, but only in defense of myself and those who are fighting with me. I would not take a group of them and become judge, jury, and executioner. Because a person has a different viewpoint than me does not give me a right to be a cold-blooded killer.
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posted
I'm not justifying it. Wrong is wrong. Killing is wrong no matter who is doing it... But dammit, things like this wouldn't have happened if... arg!!
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quote:if I had an opportunity to capture them, I'd capture them. I'd let them face trial in court as is required by the constitution.
And if the courts were now being run by the occupying porce and the constitution had been suspended and you had no prison in which to keep them until you had won the war, what would you do?
Once again, I am not saying what they did was right. It was ruthless and brutal.
I do however think it is rather disingenuous of Americans to complain about the tactics of Iraqi's who are feel they are defending their homes against a vastly superior invading army.
If we hadn't invaded Iraq, Iraqi's wouldn't be attacking US soldier's and the Iraqi's they train. We are as much to blame as the men who pulled the trigger.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:The only thing that really fits here is "the world was perfect".
B.S. If we hadn't been training those troops to fight against their own people, they wouldn't have been killed. If we hadn't invaded Iraq, those men would not have been executed by Zarqawi's men.
If we had focused on the war on terror instead of Saddam Hussein, maybe we would have captured Zaraqawi rather that Saddam.
If we had been fighting Al Qaida instead of Iraq, maybe the key leaders would be standing trial right now at the ICC.
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posted
Well, these tactics weren't used by Iraqis, were they? They were used by foriegners.
quote:If we hadn't invaded Iraq, Iraqi's wouldn't be attacking US soldier's and the Iraqi's they train. We are as much to blame as the men who pulled the trigger.
Incredibly specious argument. The people who pulled the trigger bear more responsibility than everyone else on the face of this planet put together.
quote:Incredibly specious argument. The people who pulled the trigger bear more responsibility than everyone else on the face of this planet put together.
I don't see it that way.
When you start a war, you are in the end responsible for all the atrocities that occur as a result of the war.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Well, these tactics weren't used by Iraqis, were they? They were used by foriegners.
Zarqawi isn't an Iraq but most of the men who follow him are. Unless you have more information than the News regarding the men who actually pulled the triggers, you can not make that conclusion.
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posted
You know, if I was looking for a place to air my rant without reply, an internet forum that dedicates itself to civilised discussion and populated with intelligent and passionate (and perhaps a little obsessive compulsive when it comes to posting) people might not be the first vacuum I chose to holler into.
Just a little note for next time.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote: You know, if I was looking for a place to air my rant without reply, an internet forum that dedicates itself to civilised discussion and populated with intelligent and passionate (and perhaps a little obsessive compulsive when it comes to posting) people might not be the first vacuum I chose to holler into.
You're right, but this is all I've got right now...
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Oh, hey, I dig that Boris. A lot of us come here to rant into the abyss. But this abyss has a quirk of answering back, which is cool once you get used to it. But there ain't no rant that can silence the abyss, y'know?
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Sure, Tom. You don't get the impression that international law is a tool? If it's the right tool for the job it's pursued doggedly and if it's the wrong tool for what you want to do it's discarded with neither a second thought nor a shred of remorse.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote: It may be an overly aggressive debate tactic, but sometimes it is necessary to be overly aggressive. You posted with a clear signal that you were not willing to consider any viewpoint other than your own; that's one of my pet peeves, and I've found that the best way to get someone to look at both sides of the story is to demonstrate that their accusations go both ways (which most accusations do).
I stand by my post, but I'm sorry if it offended you. I'll try to be more careful in the future.
Well, honestly, twisting words makes me less willing to listen to someone else's arguments. But I appreciate the apology.
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