I avoid the tv news like the plague, but saw this today. We have such riot issues with young sports fans in Massachusetts. Are other places as bad?
Last year it was at UMass, and some dummies got hurt. One guy jumped into a crowd from two stories up, assuming people would catch him. They all moved away and he was badly hurt.
Now, this lovely, bright young woman is dead. Did the officer, swamped by a mob, do the wrong thing? I just don't know. What could have been done to prevent this, and what will work to prevent more violence in the days to come? What if the Sox DO win the Series? Is this what fans have waited for all these years? Bedlam?
Sadly musing, wishing I could feel all happy-joy-joy again.
[ October 22, 2004, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
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posted
Until people learn how to be civilized, this will never end. I don't blame the police. I blame these morons who act like animals.
A drunken mob, though it consists of humans, is one of the most brainless and destructive entities known to man.
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The police will no doubt pay dearly for this. The riot control device in question -- a capsule filled with pepper spray -- is not intended to be shot at a person's head.
this young lady was shot in the eye.
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I saw another article that said the police have apologized and taken full responsibility for her death. It turns out that when they looked at videos, the group of people she was with did not do anything wrong. Don't remember what paper it was though...think it was on google news somewhere
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"I do not believe that the officer meant to shoot her in the eye."
Possibly not. And probably not the eye. But if you had witnessed police riots, you would have noted that cops tend to begin by swinging their clubs at the faces of "cute lil young girl"s first.
Whether or not the woman was a specific target, the shooting itself was an act of pure vicious malice. The officer who pulled the trigger was quite aware that tear gas cannisters are not supposed to be fired into a crowd at head level.
posted
In defense of the officer who fired the round... my chest is at or above face level of many women. Granted I would not be an easy target to miss, but I can see how this could easily happen with no malicious intent.
When the University of Arizona Wildcats won the basketball championship a few years ago, some minor riots popped up around Tucson. One UA student lost his eye when a rubber bullet hit it. Everyone cried foul, malice, and all sorts of bad names until they learned that the round was a ricochet off the ground, and truly was an accident.
I have no respect for mobs, mob participants, or anyone who feels destroy other peoples' or public property is an acceptable form of celebration. Maybe that's because I'm in a profession that provides potential targets, I don't know. I know at least one person died in the riots in Boston after the Patriots won the superbowl, so this can not be helping their image. Even in the most exciting highs after sports victories (or the lowest lows), if I see a police officer in riot gear, I'm going to find another place to be, and very quickly. Bystanders, while certainly not as ill-willed as active participants in a riot, provide an audience and motivations for said crowds. I suppose my point in this is while the girl's death was a tragic accident, it was her actions that lead her to be there in the first place. The police officer was most likely protecting the peace and property of the general Boston populace, and doing so in a way that is primarily non-fatal (unless he was truly aiming for her face. If that can be proven, charge him with second-degree murder).
Feyd Baron, DoC
PS: Thankfully, I'll be in Boston the week after the World Series has ended. Maybe the car fires will have been put out and the debris removed by then.
Posts: 1368 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Ya bloody well don't fire 'em at people's chests either. And that particular police officer is one of the bad eggs that slip through screening. If he didn't have the badge, he'd be amongst the jerks setting fires and overturning cars.
posted
It wasn't a cannister, it was one of the new pepper bullets.
Also, claiming this was done with malice is a load of crap. I have been in fenway, even if it wasn't the palyoffs, and the crowds get really rough sometimes.
I feel bad that this happened, but I feel almost as bad fro the officer who was responsible. The whole point of non-lethal weapons is that they are safer than the alternitive, not that they are completely safe.
I have seen cars on fire after a WS, adn police cars flipped upside down in the middle of the street......so I don't blame the police for worrying.
Not that the girl deserved to die like that....it is a waste.
But until more is known, automatically condeming the oficer is not the right response...IMO.
Just a sucky situation all around, for everyone involved.
posted
Nailin' the officer is a correct response. This automatic coverup&exoneration is what encourages bully boys to try to slip into the police departments where they can hide their sociopathy behind badges.
posted
People are reading a lot more into my response than intended.
BPD will pay dearly for this regardless of whether it was deliberate or a terribly tragic mistake.
The reason is that a young woman was killed by a projectile fired by one of their officers. Automatic lawsuit. I'm sure the city's lawyers are already drawing up a compensatino offer to the family.
I really doubt this was a deliberate act on the officer's part. And it's true that chest height on a male might be head-height on a female. That fact will not exonerate the department, even if it is determined that the officer did everything right.
Alcohol and crowds don't mix. Rowdy fans are stupid and make for nervous times for the people we underpay to defend us in such situations. Typically, whenever something like this happens the department's policies and procedures are called into question. Is the officer a "bad egg?" Was there specific training on how to safely use the enforcement gear, including the pepper bullets?
Also, I would have to question the statement that police officers on riot duty start by banging their nightsticks on the heads of young females. Is there data to back that up? I've seen lots of riot footage in my day and I think I would've recalled such performances.
posted
I guess my point at THIS point is, how can we prevent this from happening? Menino is not declaring an alcohol ban in the vicinity, because it does seems like one guy owns mostt of those bars, and he probably has some clout other than just political. (sorry, jaded view of Boston mob-laden politics coming through, coupled with too much watching of the Sporanos)
Is there any way to prevent riots after a sporting event like this?
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I'm picking up a lot of anger in you (from all your posts above) toward the authority of cops in general. Now, you may have reaason, due to a negative personal experience, that has caused you to feel this way. But I pray it will not color your overall view of police forces, nor make it so that you always assume the worse of police in every news story you read.
It really may have not been his intent to hit the girl. He may really really feel bad. It may be tearing him apart as a police officer. He may have a daughter of the same age -- you just don't know.
So please don't assume the worse of the person involved in this incident. You weren't there. You could be right -- but just as easily you could be wrong.
posted
We were talking about this yesterday at the party I was at. And we finally came up with a comparison. You know how when Georgia gets about an inch of snow and everyone is freaking out and we think wow we could send them some expertise? Well the guy I know from New Orleans commented that perhaps the cops from NO could lend a hand to the Boston and Western Mass. police. Every year they have to handle thousands of druken people and you rarely hear about people getting hurt. What is different about their approach?
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Sarah, I wonder if the people are more used to celebrating, and know how to handle themselves, thus making THEM smarter, and not needing as much babysitting.
I just read an article that said they are taking tv coverage out of the bars. (as in news coverage of people drinking their livers off and going "Yeah! Whoo!") Apparently, it gets the whole group even more riled when the cameras are there.
[ October 23, 2004, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
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A lot of people get seriously hurt in NO every year for Marti Gras, so I don't know how much it would help.
NO has a much larger police force on duty during MG, which makes a difference as well.
I didn't say that the officer shouldn't be punnished. I just said that you were jumping to conclusions....and you accused me of supporting a cover up and enabling bully boys....
Whatever.
You obviously have you own axe to grind here, for whatever reason.
My point was that it is a horrible situation for all envloved. Keep inmind that the officer in question was a Boston police officer, and he would have probably rather been celebrating in that crowd than doing riot control...he probably is a Red Sox fan too, and understood how cool it was for the Red Sox to have owon....
And now he has to live with the fact that an innocent (as far as we know right now, anyway) girl died because of his actions.
Just because a weapon is called non-lethal doesn't mean that a person can't die because of them...it just is far less likely tahn with other weapons.
I just found out that someone I know, an 18 year old family friend, was there that night in that very crowd. It very well could have been him that died.....
posted
I think the notion that police beat the "young pretty girl" first stems from what does often happen at riots. There's a large line of nervous police a big open space and a huge throng of mob. Someone in the mob who wants out of the mob can't push through the human crush and so they run into the big open space. The nervous police officers are then able to fixate on one rioter (who may want to throw a malotov cocktail at the police or may just want to get the heck out of there) and they can deal with one lone person and so they do. The recipe is just right for it to happen.
Mob mentality is a crazy and frightening thing, as is having to stand against the mob. Having never really been in either position, I'm not going to take it upon myself to judge those who have been.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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The kid that I used to babysit is a freshman at Northeastern and went out with his friends after we won the other night. At 12:45 am he called his mom and said "mom listen", she said "what is taht?" "It's the biggest Yankees suck chant you'll ever hear!" "Where are you?" "At Fenway!" "Be Careful!" That was how the conversation played out. It could have been different. Kyle is extremely upset that having fun, while sober, he could have been hurt or killed accidentally. From what he said a group of people had lit toilet paper on fire and were throwing it and bottles at the cops. Last year at UMass (aka ZooMass) Amherst, people were severely injured because of idiots doing things like that, and some were completely sober, just all riled up by the crowd, and using the Red Sox as an excuse to behave like animals. Kyle left when he heard the police start firing pepper spray "bullets". He was scared. Sometimes accidents happen. Sometimes people make mistakes. Who is to say that the officer that fired that shot will not live out the rest of his life hating himself for what he did, wishing he could go back and change it all, wishing he hadn't been there that night. I had a friend who lived that .... he accidentally shot his best friend in the face, killing him 2 days before he would have turned 16. He didn't know it was a real gun. He didn't know it was loaded. He hated himself and never forgave himself for what he did. He died last year from leukemia, so he doesn't have to continue wishing that he were the one that was dead. Perhaps that officer feels the same. Put yourself not only in the shoes of the victim, but in the shoes of the officer. Riots have caused many officers to be injured, maimed , and even killed. That officer didn't know what was going to happen to him and he did his job. What he was trained to do.
Have you ever been in a scene like that? Have you seen the girls on their boyfriends shoulders? An officer could fire "above the crowd" and not see the girls up on shoulders and hit them without even knowing it. I am short. My eyes are at about chest level to most guys, and yes thhe pepper spray "bullets" are meant to be aimed at the chest because they break open and do what they are supposed to ...get pepper spray in the person's face. So if I were standing next to a normal guy... about 5'10" and someone fired at him , I could easily be hit in the face. No one knows exactly what happened last night, no one's story will tell the truth. What "kid" is gonna say "I threw a bottle at the cop" they aren't really that stupid, they'll cover their own backsides. So it's impossible to say that the cop deliberately aimed at her face, or that it wasn't a terrible mistake. You can't just assume that the police are going to cover up what really happened...they may never know what really happened. When you assume you "make an ass out of u and me" (ass/u/me). If you want to say things like that, show us the facts to back them up, so that we know it's not just from some personal grudge. That's what it sounds like from Aspectre's view point. They also didn't use tear gas canisters... they used plastic pepper spray filled pellets.. sort of like a paint ball pellet.
All that said, it was a terrible tragedy, and since Kwea and I will be in Boston tonight ...on Yawkee Way..... right outside Fenway (at a poolhall called Jillian's), hopefully there won't be another mob scene. Go Red Sox!
posted
Jillian's is where they usually bradcast live from, so we can all see the drunken college students. Not tonight. Figures, we could have seen you guys!(not to imply that you will be either drunk or a college student, and also not to imply that all foolish Boston drunks ARE college students)
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That it killed her was more of a freak accident, though precipitated by intent. If she had merely been blinded in an eye I still think it would have made the news. Sure the things are pretty much like painballs, but goggles are required in paintball venues.
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posted
The problem is that in a mob that size, with so many people moving around constantly, with folks right in the officers face and things flying through the air and the tremendous noise, we will never know what the officer could see. We will never know for sure what he thought he was shooting at. The scene moves so quickly that what he saw and what was actually there do not neccesarily match up. If the officer merely reacted to what was going on and shot into the crowd...who knows? He may have never seen the girl, or he may have aimed at her deliberately...
The situation is the problem. Convincing people that a sporting event is not a good enough reason for destruction and mayhem is the problem. This unfortunate accident takes the focus off the fact that thousands were out there causing the problem.
The girl would be alive if the people of Boston had shown more sense. If the officer did not mean to shoot the girl in the face, then it is the thousands of morons on the street that killed her.
posted
We'll never know what happened until "Hall of Heads" technology is perfected.
Actually, two nights ago I dreamed that a woman was killed at a sporting event when someone's elbow hit her in the eye. Hardly prescient, but in the dream I was wondering "How can being hit in the eye kill you? That's very strange." Before you begin to worship me, it was an ice skating event and the woman was gymnast Shannon Miller. The guy whose elbow struck her eye socket was a fellow from my high school Latin Club.
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posted
According to my sources, police riot squads are now using paintball equipment with pellets - glycerine shell, just like paintball that easily split on impact as long as they aren't cold - filled with pepper spray. The intent is to hit midchest, which causes the pellet to explode and release the pepper in a cloud.
My brother was hit once in the face with a paintball pellet. He was coming up out of a bunker and intercepted the pellet's existing flight path - in other words, he wasn't there when the shooter let fly. It hit him at enough of an angle where it knocked his protective goggles off his face, impacted on the orbit just below his eyeball, splashed paint and glycerine shell into his eye cavity. Needless to say he was immediately rushed to the emergency room, where first the doctors screamed at him for not wearing equipment (uh, duh, he WAS!) and second informed him that if the pellet had come in at a slightly flatter angle, he'd have lost the eye entirely.
One part of the problem causing this situation is that the riot squads may not be trained completely and appropriately for the gear they are using. Shooting someone from five feet away as was mentioned earlier in this thread is absolutely a no-no, even on a gamefield, without protective equipment in place. Shooting in the face is absolutely a no-no, even WITH gear. The pressure regulators in typical paintball guns (Angels, RTs, Mags ... NOT the cheap guns sold at Walmart) are touchy and absolutely not to be messed around with once set correctly for the tank in use, and parts are not to be swapped around willy-nilly. If these officers are not already paintballers, they really need to be closely watched in range situations and trained well.
I certainly hope that the officer involved did not aim for her face. I hope that she intercepted a shot, much as my brother did, rather than believe that his aim was off and he was shooting for someone standing next to her. The fact that the pellet apparently penetrated the skull to cause internal damage sufficient to cause death is very frightening. That's either a very close-range shot, a cranked regulator, or perhaps both.
In any case, I fully expect a statement by Forrest Brown, who is one of the major head honchos in the painball community, in the next day or two if it hasn't already been released.
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Thanks for the interesting perspective. I've never been on a paintball course, but I've heard that minor injuries are common. I thought the protective eyewear was because the paint would irritate the eye. It really hadn't occurred to me just how damaging a shot from one of these pellets could be.
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posted
Interesting how perspectives can differ. I never thought of paint being an eye irritant--I assumed the masks were to keep pellets from penetrating the eye.
Like very small racquetballs. o_O
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
A friend of mine's son has a pellet gun, and I ask her not to let him use it when my son is over. I told her that, otherwise, I could not let him play there. Her son is not very careful with things like, well, guns.
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posted
Minor injuries LOL... Steve comes home bruised every week. One of his teammates got popped in a rather sensitive spot.... where apparently he's pierced in addition to it being a normally sensitive spot. After the gog-shot, Steve was black and blue and swollen for weeks - but now his vision in that eye is better than it was before he got hit.
Yes there are occasional major injuries, but from what I've been reading, virtually every single one is tank-related. The regulator is set incorrectly, the tank itself is at the wrong pressure, a line isn't fully connected. Major incidents from impact with a paintball pellet are so rare that they don't appear on the various statistical reports I saw, yet I know it must happen because it did to Steve.
Nothing is infallible. We can only hope that people use common sense and follow the rules set forth.
And Elizabeth, I applaud your concern and watchfulness over the pellet gun. Renegade ball, which is what the paintballers call "pick-up" games that take place outside of a sanctioned (and therefore insured) facility are the most dangerous of all because of the lack of supervision. If this other child is less than trustworthy with his "toys", I'd certainly not want them around my child either, and I'd probably be pressuring his parents to remove them entirely from his reach.
posted
Probably not a surprise, but Boston PD has suspended use of the gun in question pending investigation.
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Now I'm worried for my brother at Northeastern, who frequents Fenway.
a snippet from the school paper Oct 21 on our riots: "if Boston does well in the World Series, he [the director of police and security] will reevaluate the need for a National Guard presence." I know how crazy it gets here, and at zoo mass. I can't imagine what it's like right outside Fenway...
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quote: The whole point of non-lethal weapons is that they are safer than the alternitive, not that they are completely safe.
Part of the problem is that in order for anything to be even mildly effective at stopping people, it has the possibility for lethality. As pooka pointed out, if the conditions are right, very small things can kill us.
There are only two things that can be done to make sure the police don't accidentally kill rioters. Either make sure there aren't any riots, or let the rioters have their way with the town. If the police have to use any force to stop things, somebody will eventually get killed.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Linkage (story on Comcast, I don't think it requires login)
As I suspected, two of the Boston police officers involved were not trained on use of the paintball-type guns. One apparently refused to shoot, the other did not. The one who did not refuse is the one that is alleged to have hit the college student.
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
You know, I love chile peppers a lot. I grow very hot ones, and have occasionally, after cutting them, been stupid enough to touch my eye. This is just a little of the oil on my hands, and I thought i would surely go blind. How much capsaicin does one of these bullets have in it? Also, isnt it supposed to get into the eyes, or is it suppoed to burn the skin?
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I don't know much about it, but what I do know is it is NOT 'sposed to touch the face, *especially* the eyes. It's meant for making your eyes water from the dust and your body stunned from the impact.
Posts: 3636 | Registered: Oct 2001
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People are just out in the streets of Boston right now. They've closed off the area around Fenway, and riot police are everywhere. Local News coverage has their helicopters out, just waiting for riots.
Where I am isn't bad at all, and I live near Boston I go to a women's college, which explains half of that.
Posts: 1757 | Registered: Oct 2004
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We had mounties! And doggies. And police cars literally lining the quad. Only a few quick fires... our celebration was quite wholesome Posts: 3636 | Registered: Oct 2001
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