posted
Is this word offensive? If so, what does it refer to?
AFAIK, human races are grouped into three main groups -- Negroid, Caucasoid, and Mongoloid. That's the only meaning of mongoloid that I know of. But apparently it is sometimes offensive. Can you enlighten me?
posted
Of course, that meaning could also offend some. From dictionary.com's "race" entry.
quote:The notion of race is nearly as problematic from a scientific point of view as it is from a social one. European physical anthropologists of the 17th and 18th centuries proposed various systems of racial classifications based on such observable characteristics as skin color, hair type, body proportions, and skull measurements, essentially codifying the perceived differences among broad geographic populations of humans. The traditional terms for these populations - Caucasoid (or Caucasian), Mongoloid, Negroid, and in some systems Australoid - are now controversial in both technical and nontechnical usage, and in some cases they may well be considered offensive.
posted
Crap. There goes a useful word that I can no longer use.
What is a word that I can use instead of mongoloid? Oriental is technically inappropriate, as is Asian. If I understand correctly, the word oriental never correctly refers to people. Also, there are many people that live in Asia that aren't "asian".
posted
As I understand it, the old racial theory held that there were five races of humanity. They were: Caucasoid (whites), Negroid (blacks), Mongoloid (Asians and Native Americans), Australoid (aboriginal Australians), and Capoid (African Bushmen).
This theory is no longer accepted in the scientific community at large. I believe most scientists now have abandoned the very idea of there even being different "races", not because race is un-PC, but because it's just not supported by evidence beyond the purely superficial outward physical differences. Scientifically speaking, deep down we are pretty much the same.
People with Down's Syndrome are sometimes called "Mongoloids", presumably because the condition gives their face an appearance that reminds others of Asians. The term is considered highly offensive in this context.
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I've never seen it. Maybe he was comparing them to the Mongol Hordes, saying they were basically just steppe barbarians? Much like people in WWI called the Germans "Huns", even though the real Huns (who were an Asiatic people) are not related to ethnic Germans.
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posted
My high school health textbook referred to a symptom of Downs Syndrome being a mongoloid appearance. Huh. If it has offensive connotations, they must be recent.
(on a related note) - Has anyone seen the Belgian film The Eighth Day (Le Huitième Jour)? There is a character with Downs who makes allusions to Mongolia himself, and it's done quite sweetly and touchingly. (Fabulous film, btw)
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
Somehow this seems fitting, *apologizes ahead of time*:
PRINCETON Say, Kate, can I ask you a question?
KATE MONSTER Sure!
PRINCETON Well, you know Trekkie Monster upstairs?
KATE MONSTER Uh huh!
PRINCETON Well, he's Trekkie Monster, and you're Kate Monster.
KATE MONSTER Right.
PRINCETON You're both Monsters.
KATE MONSTER Yeah.
PRINCETON Are you two related?
KATE MONSTER What! Princeton I'm surprised at you! I find that racist!
PRINCETON Oh, well, I'm sorry! I was just asking.
KATE MONSTER Well, it's a touchy subject. Now, now all Monsters are related. What are you trying to say, huh? -- That we all look the same to you? Huh, huh, huh?
PRINCETON No, no, no, not at all. I'm sorry, I guess that was a little racist.
KATE MONSTER I should say so. You should be much more careful when you're talking about the sensitive subject of race.
PRINCETON Well, look who's talking!
KATE MONSTER What do you mean?
PRINCETON What about that special Monster School you told me about?
KATE MONSTER What about it?
PRINCETON Could someone like me go there?
KATE MONSTER No, we don't want people like you --
PRINCETON You see?!
(sung)
You're a little bit racist.
KATE MONSTER Well, you're a little bit, too.
PRINCETON I guess we're both a little bit racist.
KATE MONSTER Admitting it is not an easy thing to do...
PRINCETON But I guess it's true
KATE MONSTER Between me and you, I think
BOTH Everyone's a little bit racist, sometimes. Doesn't mean we go around committing hate crimes. Look around and you will find, no one's really color-blind. Maybe it's a fact we all should face. Everyone makes judgments... based on race.
(spoken)
PRINCETON Not big judgments, like who to hire or who to buy a newspaper from --
KATE MONSTER No!
PRINCETON No, just little judgments like thinking that Mexican busboys should learn to speak goddamn English!
KATE MONSTER Right!
(sung)
BOTH Everyone's a little bit racist -- today, so, everyone's a little big racist -- okay! Ethnic jokes might be uncouth, but you laugh because they're based on truth. Don't take them as personal attacks. Everyone enjoys them -- so relax!
(spoken)
PRINCETON All right, stop me if you've heard this one. There's a plane going down and there's only one parachute. And there's a rabbi, a priest...
KATE MONSTER ... and a BLACK guy!
GARY COLEMAN Whatchoo talkin' about Kate?
KATE MONSTER Uh --
GARY COLEMAN You were telling a BLACK joke!
PRINCETON Well, sure, Gary, but lost of people tell black jokes...
GARY COLEMAN I don't.
PRINCETON Well, of course you don't -- you're black! But I bet you tell Polack jokes, right?
GARY COLEMAN Well, sure I do. Those stupid Polacks!
PRINCETON Don't you think that's a little racist?
GARY COLEMAN Well, damn, I guess you're right.
(sung)
KATE MONSTER You're a little bit racist.
GARY COLEMAN Well, you're a little bit, too.
PRINCETON We're all a little bit racist.
GARY COLEMAN I think that I would have to agree with you.
PRINCETON & KATE MONSTER We're glad you do.
GARY COLEMAN It's sad, but true! Everyone's a little bit racist -- all right! Bigotry has never been exclusively white --
ALL If we all could just admit that we are racist a little bit, even though we all know that it's wrong, maybe it would help us get along!
(spoken)
PRINCETON Christ, do I feel good!
GARY COLEMAN Now there was a fine upstanding black man!
PRINCETON Who?
GARY COLEMAN Jesus Christ!
KATE MONSTER But Gary, Jesus was white!
GARY COLEMAN No, Jesus was black.
KATE MONSTER No, Jesus was white!
GARY COLEMAN No, I'm pretty sure Jesus was black!
PRINCETON Guys -- Jesus was Jewish!
BRIAN Hey guys, what are you laughing about?
GARY COLEMAN Racism!
BRIAN Cool.
CHRISTMAS EVE Brian! You come back here! You take out lecycuraburs!
PRINCETON What's that mean?
BRIAN Um. Recyclables.
(Everyone laughs)
Hey, don't laugh at her! How many languages do you speak?
KATE MONSTER Oh, come off it, Brian!
(sung)
Everyone's a little bit racist.
BRIAN I'm not!
PRINCETON Oh, no?
BRIAN Nope! How many oriental wives have you got?
CHRISTMAS EVE What? Brian!
PRINCETON Brian, buddy, where you been? The term is Asian-American!
CHRISTMAS EVE I know you are no intending to be, but calling me oriental -- offensive to me!
(spoken)
BRIAN I'm sorry honey, I love you.
CHRISTMAS EVE And I love you.
BRIAN But you're racist, too.
CHRISTMAS EVE Yes, I know.
(sung)
The Jews have all the money and the whites have all the power and I'm always in taxi-cab with driver who no shower!
PRINCETON Me too!
KATE MONSTER Me too!
GARY COLEMAN I can't even get a taxi!
ALL Everyone's a little bit racist, it's true. But everyone is just about as racist as you! If we all could just admit that we are racist a little bit, and everyone stopped being so P.C., maybe we could live in -- harmony!
CHRISTMAS EVE Ev'lyone's a ritter bit lacist!
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posted
If anyone's curious, the word "Mongoloid" was used in Europe to refer to children with various birth defects, including Down's Syndrome, many years ago, based on the false idea that such children were expressing a distant Mongolian ancestry, dating back to the Mongol invasion of Europe and the rape of European women.
Naturally, that's absurd, even given the era's scanty understanding of heredity — first off, such children don't really look at all like Mongolians, and Mongolia if anything was one of the most successful and brilliantly-constructed empires of all time — hardly a culture to be associated with mental defects, but there you have the mindset of the time.
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posted
Yes! I've been studying all day too, Eruve. You mean animal biology? I'm actually not coming up with anything that ends in 'oloid'. The closest I can get is 'diploid' and 'haploid'..
And, would anyone care to explain how scientists no longer accept the idea of race? as Verily mentioned up there. I get the idea of human race, and that it doesn't translate well to the sense of people being racist. That's the discrepancy, neh?
Posts: 1056 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Sorry, Annie, But "Le huitième jour" is a french movie. (My condition of French need to rebuild the truth )
About races, During my studies all my Professor of Biology (really all !) teached me that, they are no human races. I guess it's right : today, we are all the result of a wonderful mixe of asian, african, european,... In Paris, this mixe is looked all the day.
About Mongoloid, We make the part between "mongolien", familiar term for everyone who have down's syndrome, and "Mongol" and by extension "mongoloïde", first being inhabitants of "Mongolie", country in the north of China, and second being an unappropriate term for the physical type "asian".
Don't forget that the sufixe (? i hope it's the same word) -oid (or -oïde in french) refere to a physical type. We said "humanoid" (who have the physical aspect of human), "android" (who have the physical aspect of a man), "Fongoid" (who have the physical aspect of a mushroom), or "Astroid" (who is like a celest corp).
Posts: 1189 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote: My high school health textbook referred to a symptom of Downs Syndrome being a mongoloid appearance. Huh. If it has offensive connotations, they must be recent.
Not really - it could be you had an old, outdated textbook or the editors of the text had a fondness for old, outdated terminology.
quote:(on a related note) - Has anyone seen the Belgian film The Eighth Day (Le Huitième Jour)? There is a character with Downs who makes allusions to Mongolia himself, and it's done quite sweetly and touchingly. (Fabulous film, btw)
Let's not confuse the actor's personal views with what the screenwriters had him say, eh?
The term "Mongolian Idiocy" was replaced by "Down's syndrome" back in 1961. Not by some "PC" activists, but by the editor of The Lancet, after being lobbied by geneticists. The World Health Organization adopted the term later on as well.
For anyone curious about John Langdon Down, his work and the times he lived in, here's a pretty good - and long - article:
posted
thanks ARND. I agree with you, Sndrake, about the term of Down's syndrome. That's the good term to speak about 21 trisomy. When i said "familiar word", i would say "bad familiar word".
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posted
Sndrake : have you seen the movie ? The actor really has a trisomy 21. And he's a wonderful actor nonetheless. He had a price along with the second "principal actor" of the movie. Link
[ December 14, 2004, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Anna ]
Posts: 3526 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote: I thought of that, but I've never seen one that looked like he has Mongol ancestry.
Random: My in-laws are Czech but they all have a distinct Asian look to their eyes from what they believe is a Mongolian influence. This made an interesting mix in my husband when added to his Native American background. People often argue that he looks Asian, Native American, or just plain white. (A good argument that race doesn't mean anything.)
Anyway, here's a pic of his two Czech relatives that live(d) in the states. They are the two older people closest to the camera. Their eyes are really interesting!
quote:Sorry, Annie, But "Le huitième jour" is a french movie. (My condition of French need to rebuild the truth )
Sorry about that. I assumed since it was set in Bruxelles and had Dutch available as one of the subtitles that it was Belgian. Is the director Belgian? (What's his name.. Dormael?)
And thanks, sndrake, for clearing that up for us. I hate when my ignorance makes me sound bigoted.
posted
Oh, and I think that the scenes in the film are purposely making fun of the"Mongol" stereotype. There's one scene where Georges (the one with Down's) is yelling obscenities at Harry (the man who became his accidental rescuer.) He is angry and yelling crude words which he ends with, "Mongol!"
Harry, calmly, responds, "Non. Mongol, c'est toi." (No - you're the Mongol) and they both start laughing. It is then that you realize that Georges is just reciting things that people have said cruelly to him, and it's very bittersweet.
I highly reccommend the movie, again. It's one of the best I've seen.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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it didn't sound bigoted to me. It sounded like having misinformation, and I try very hard to tell the difference.
Anna,
I've seen bits and pieces of "The Eighth Day," but haven't watched it all the way through yet. It's on my list.
Edit to add: I'm pretty sure that literally everyone I've encountered who has seen this movie agrees what's been said here. That includes a number of family members of people with Down syndrome - I haven't talked to anyone with Down syndrome who has seen the movie, though (as educational access for people with DS has increased, so has the number who can read and could watch a subtitled movie).
quote: Yes! I've been studying all day too, Eruve. You mean animal biology? I'm actually not coming up with anything that ends in 'oloid'. The closest I can get is 'diploid' and 'haploid'..
Not specifically "animal biology", just high school generic biology that include animals. I finished, though! At 3 in the morning.
Oh, I think I meant to type "oid" and ended up typing "oloid". Posts: 4174 | Registered: Sep 2003
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My husband's grandfather was 100% tartar-mongol. Just about the only "typical" characteristic Vladimir doesn't have is the epicampic fold in his eyelid. Otherwise he has straight black hair, olive skin, brown eyes, and a lithe build. His beard is pretty sparse, though as he's grown older it has become quite a bit thicker. Just about all he could grow when we first met when he was 25 was a goatee and mustache.
In Russia, they talk about two types of russian. There is the 'black russian' that my husband is typical of, and the white russian that is almost purely slavic.
Here is a picture, that illustrates also how my very pale western european blood mixes with his dark 'black russian' blood:
quote:And, would anyone care to explain how scientists no longer accept the idea of race? as Verily mentioned up there. I get the idea of human race, and that it doesn't translate well to the sense of people being racist. That's the discrepancy, neh?
Okay, the thing about there not actually being races. Race groups people more or less by skin color; there are other characteristics that they go by, but they're not all that accurate, really. The thing is, when DNA is compared, there is, on average, more difference in, say, a person with "black" skin from North Africa and one from South Africa or Jamaica than there is between that same person with black skin and a neighbor of his who happens to have "white" skin. There is, on average, more difference between any two random "blacks" living in the American South than there is between a tall white man from Finland and a tall black man from Nigeria. It just doesn't make sense to refer to "races" when all you're grouping by is outward appearance, and inside, people aren't that different. I must add that the differences there are, aren't all that extreme. More correct is the notion of "ethnicity", people who have traditionally lived in an area and intermarried sharing a genetic heritage; for instance, blacks are more prone to sickle-cell anemia, Ashkenazi (hope I spelled that right) Jews to Tay-Sachs disease, people of Irish descent to phenylketonuria, etc., especially when they marry someone with a common heritage. However, there are problems even with this idea because there has been so much "mixing". We are no longer bound by physical barriers to stay in one small village all our lives, so there is a lot of diversity in all our genes. That's why scientists discount the idea of race; it just doesn't really make sense.
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posted
Intresting addendum, though; studies show that even children who have not been exposed to the idea of "race" will, at age 3, more readily group people by skin color than other characteristics (such as height, etc.). Also, if shown a picture of a "white" and a "black" and told a story about one child picking on another, one person stealing from another, etc., and asked to pick which of the pictures is of the "bad" person in the story, children will pick the picture of the person of their own "race" as the "good guy" and the other as the "bad guy" until age 4 or so; from age 5, white children have the same result, but black children begin to pick the black person as the "bad" one and the white person as the "good" one; and then by age 8, it swings back to each picking their own race as good and the other as bad.
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posted
Wait, a black child will pick a black person as the bad guy with *no* exposure to the concept of "race"? I find that hard to believe.
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posted
Well, that was a different study. Sorry. Should have clarified that. The study with "no exposure to race", of course, can't be totally accurate, but the researchers used their own children, so they did their best.
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That's true. I don't think I've ever seen such a consistent blending of attractive characteristics in an entire group of children before.
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quote: Well, that was a different study. Sorry. Should have clarified that. The study with "no exposure to race", of course, can't be totally accurate, but the researchers used their own children, so they did their best.
It would be interesting to know when the study was done.
"No exposure to race" may not be the same thing as "not exposed to barrage of media images featuring mostly white people as the most successful, wisest, and attractive people in the culture."
For any study done up through the 1970s, that would definitely be the case - all the positive role models were white in mainstream media. A child wouldn't have to know anything about "race" to be affected by it. Even now, when it comes to network TV, it's still a predominantly white world world, I think.
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posted
From what was explained about the study in the book I was reading, for the one about "no exposure to race" they basically kept their kids home a lot for the first few years and didn't let them watch TV or listen to the radio news or anything.
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posted
Cool! Thanks, kq. Your explanation was what I was vaguely thinking.
So would you say 'racist' is an incorrect term for what it means? We should start saying 'ethnicist' or something.
Posts: 1056 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
No, racist is correct for what it means. Judging people by skin color or other outward signs of "race" is racism. It's just that racism is wrong for many reasons, one of them being that race is a fairly invalid concept, scientifically.
There are several probable sources for the perpetuation of the term "mongolism" - people picking up the term from various sources:
*Physicians and other professionals who learned the term during their training and either haven't bothered to check the terminology in the last 30 or 40 years or are just resistant to change.
*Picking it up from friends and family who learned the term, possibly from the above source or maybe even the next one:
*Too many old copies of Benjamin Spock's book on childrearing floating around. A friend of mine has written a lot about children and adults with Down syndrome and how their abilities have grown as expectations have increased. Here's a quote from one of his articles:
quote:...Dr. Benjamin Spock's influential book Baby and Child Care (1946) suggested that babies born mongoloid should immediately be institutionalized based on the premise that "If (the infant) merely exists at a level that is hardly human, it is much better for the other children and the parents to have him cared for elsewhere" (p. 478)...
posted
My 9th grade Health textbook, which was fairly modern in other respects, and not all that old (published less than 10 years ago) was still using the old term in addition to Down's Syndrome. I think it was something like "Trisomy 21 causes Down's Syndrome (mongolism), which is characterized by..."
posted
FWIW, the most current usage in the technical field is to eliminate possessives from the names of syndromes, e.g., "Down syndrome."
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