posted
We're getting 2 kitties this weekend that will be outdoor pets. We figured they'd help keep mice away and they also don't currently live in the best conditions. (They live in a garage with their mother and have very little human contact).
Here's what I'm trying to decide. Should I spay and neuter them? I'm of 2 minds about this. On one hand, we could be spending money on 2 cats who will run off and disappear somewhere - everyone around here has at least 3 acres, so that's a possibility. I've always spayed or neutered our indoor pets, so it feels *wrong* not to do it. On the other hand, we really don't care if we end up with litters and litters of kittens. Cats are cheap to feed, and we plan to give the rabies shots ourselves.
Mr. Opera had outdoor cats growing up, and he said that usually the population takes care of itself. Some cats disappear, some get taken by animals, etc.
posted
The population will take care of it's self, but your kids may become attached to one of the more unfortunate cats, thats my only concern with not getting the cats fixed....
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Fix them. Seriously. It's the responsible thing to do. If they bought the kittens to you, that would be not so bad, but if it's a male cat impregnating females everywhere and then... Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Geez, I'd say it's better to spay and neuter than to knowingly create litters of kittens that are expected to be eaten by wild animals. And if you don't alter all of the surviving offspring, you could very quickly end up with a huge feral cat population on your land. Which is bad for plenty of reasons. And, while the male cat might get some enjoyment out of being intact, I'm pretty sure that intact female cats have a pretty rough time of it, and often don't survive the experience. Not to mention altering your pets can significantly reduce the risk of reproductive cancers.
Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Zeugma, the really sad thing is that these 2 kitties *are* practically feral. As I said, their current living situation is staying in a garage with their mother. They have almost no contact with the people who own them. The lady told me the other week that they had them inside for a few minutes, and that when her husband tried to pick one up it started hissing and pooped all over the place. I told her that it was most assuredly because the cats haven't been socialized at all. The way they currently live is a huge part of why we're taking them.
posted
Well, fixing them will certainly make them a lot more approchable by humans as they get older. Spayed females roam less, and neutered males... well, there's plenty of benefits to a neutered male pet.
I definitely think it would be inhumane to let these cats roam free without altering them. The female would be having a litter about once a year, and the male would be siring countless more (and roaming further to do so). So you're talking dozens and dozens of innocent little furballs every year that are expected to be killed and eaten by local predators. Like a little kitty butcher shop. Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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It is really not fair to call a common farm practice an inhumane kitty butcher shop. The cats would be around to serve a purpose (destroy small rodents) and the more cats you have, the less rodents you have.
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Please, for the love of all that is holy, spay and neuter the cats. Not only will you be saving unborn generations of cats from miserable lives and deaths, you will be doing a good thing for the environment. Feral cats can wreak havoc on bird populations.
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I hate to be mean, but odds are, the cats would be more then content and most people who live in town baby their pets way too much.
I mean I can see why you wouldn't want a couple dozen cats running around if they were pets, but it sounds to me like these cats aren't pets, they are rodent control, which means they are working class livestock, would you encourage some one to get a draft horse fixed?
Posts: 1094 | Registered: Mar 2004
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JT, I don't really think you have any idea what you're talking about. Having some cats around the property to take care of rodents is fine. Planning to have two intact cats produce thousands of feral offspring, intending for most of the newborn kittens to be eaten, is inhumane and often against the law. Cats are a domesticated species, they aren't meant to be wild animals, both for their own sake and for the safety of the actual wild animal population. The thought of deliberately creating a feral cat population is enough to make me want to camp out and protest or something.
I really respect your presence here, Space Opera, and I know you'll do the right thing. I am, however, a little shocked by the idea.
Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Zuegma, start camping... We have "feral" cats around our farm. They have been here for as long as i have been, at any given point in time we have between 6 and 20 cats running around. We feed them, and they supplement with any small creature that they can catch. Obviously this has had an immense impact of the wild birds that come to my mothers bird feeder year round.
Posts: 1094 | Registered: Mar 2004
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JT, part of your problem is that you're lacking in a grasp of basic math skills.
quote:Feral and homeless cats are a huge part of the growing pet over-population problem everywhere. The number of feral cats in the U.S. has been estimated at 60 million. Ferals are the wild offspring of domestic cats, and ALWAYS the result of pet owners who fail to spay or neuter their animals. The HSUS estimates that a pair of breeding cats and their offspring can exponentially produce over 400,000 cats in 7 years.
Many people think pets can regain their so-called "natural" instincts and hunt to survive if they are abandoned or lost. The truth is - they can't. Their lives are a grim struggle to survive in back alleys or in rural areas on whatever scraps of food they can beg or steal. Unless they are cared for by a feeder, most die young from disease, starvation, abuse, and accidents - or die violently as food for a predator. The ones that are lucky enough to end up in shelters are usually put to death. Shelters are forced to kill millions of homeless cats each year at a hefty tax bill for citizens, and at an untold emotional burden to shelter workers.
quote:Title: (Criminal Law & Procedure (Miscellaneous Offenses) 35-46-3-7 Abandonment or neglect of vertebrate animals
   Year: 1987
   Summary: Prohibits recklessly, knowingly or intentionally abandoning or neglecting a vertebrate animal in one's custody.
   Penalty: Class B Misdemeanor (35-50-3-3) maximum 180 days confinement; maximum $1,000 fine. Any law enforcement officer or other person with authority to impound animals who has probable cause can take custody of the animal involved.
quote:IC 35-46-3-7 A person having a vertebrate animal in the persons custody who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally abandons or neglects the animal commits cruelty to an animal, a class B misdemeanor. What this law means is a person cannot hurt or injure an animal by beating, kicking, or any other means of causing pain or suffering to the animal. Additionally, a person cannot neglect the animal, such as not treating injuries, allowing an animal to suffer from lack of medical treatment, not feeding and watering, or not providing proper shelter. This also means a person cannot abandon any animal, i.e. taking an animal to a rural area and turning it loose, moving and leaving any animal behind, or leaving the animal at a veterinarian and not going back to pick it up.
quote: The HSUS estimates that a pair of breeding cats and their offspring can exponentially produce over 400,000 cats in 7 years.
This estimate is probably assuming that the cat has lets say 6 kittens per litter, has one litter after another with no down time, and that all the kittens survive.
2.
quote: Many people think pets can regain their so-called "natural" instincts and hunt to survive if they are abandoned or lost. The truth is - they can't. Their lives are a grim struggle to survive in back alleys or in rural areas on whatever scraps of food they can beg or steal.
These cats are not being dumped in an ally, they are not begging or stealing, they are being fed.
3.
quote: Unless they are cared for by a feeder, most die young from disease, starvation, abuse, and accidents - or die violently as food for a predator.
These cats will have someone feeding them (a caregiver). Space Opera is planning on getting the cats in question their shots. I honestly doubt they will be abused, unless you definition of abuse is lack of a store bought scratching post. Accidents are part of Farm/Rural life, it will happen whether they are fixed or not. And as far as being a meal for some wild animal, the cat would have to already be sick, or injured to be easy prey for most north american predators.
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quote: What this law means is a person cannot hurt or injure an animal by beating, kicking, or any other means of causing pain or suffering to the animal. Additionally, a person cannot neglect the animal, such as not treating injuries, allowing an animal to suffer from lack of medical treatment, not feeding and watering, or not providing proper shelter. This also means a person cannot abandon any animal, i.e. taking an animal to a rural area and turning it loose,
Having cats run around on your farm is not abandonment, and as to treating injuries, I would, and have taken injured cats in to the vet, and if the animal is beyond help, bullets are cheap. we've already established the animals are fed and water is plentiful on farm. Proper shelter, I.E. a barn is also common, however, a hole into the foundation of your house would be considered proper shelter be any rural law enforcement agency.
and Don't go on that whole, "It's inhumane to shoot an animal regardless of it's situation." point of view, because farmers all over the world do it and do it legally.
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Space Opera, I'm sure you will do what ever you feel right about doing, but don't let people tell you that what your doing is wrong, either way.
Zuegma, I'm sorry to have made you feel ill, but I'm willing to bet, you've never had the farm expeirence, and I invite you to have it around here anyday.
Posts: 1094 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I have had a farm experience, JT, and you're making me ill, too. It's your responsiblity to provide a reasonably long life for any animal in your care, and any offspring they happen to have through your negligence. I have two cats in my barn at the moment, one spayed because she's catachable, and one not, becasue she's not. If it ever got to the point where we COULD catch her, we'd take her to the vet and get her spayed.
Let me give you an exagerated example. Horses are my species, though you would do the same thing with cattle or sheep.
I have five broodmares and one stud on a small farm. I turn the stud out to breed the mares, and each mare has a foal the next year. Say I get lucky, and get two males and three females. This happens for the next few years, and I don't separate the herd, or geld any of the colts. Soon ALL of my horses are starving, and fighting.
THe same thing is happening with your barn cats. EVEN if you feed them. the dominat ones will get the food, and the other ones have to scrounge.
Let's assume for a moment that the two cats either aren't enough to control the rodent population or one or the other disappear or die or they otherwise just want to get more cats.
There are still enough homeless cats around that Space Opera and Mr. Opera can get more without a lot of difficulty. Check out the newspapers, the local pount, the SPCA. There are always more cats that someone is giving away.
This supports spaying and neutering.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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kwsni, providing a reasonable long life for the cats is an important part. After rereading my previous post I can see how you would feel ill, but the purpose of the cats is to keep the rampart rodent population out of the feed. The cats are fed in several different locations and spread out over 140 acres. Most of our cats die from unavoidable accidents. Barnyard cats, in general have short life spans, it's not that they aren't cared for (I give them all, even the hard to catch ones, their shots). But due to the nature of occupation (rodent search and destroy) they usually don't live too long. They die off at nearly the same rate as they repopulate. my point to Zuegma is that allowing for this to happen is not always wrong. Yes if I lived in the suburbs, it'd be wrong, and inexcusable. but in the middle of no where, it is the most practical thing to do.
Quid, you wouldn't want to go to the shelter and get a cat for the purpose of rodent control. They are too tame and will only hunt for pleasure, not out of instinct.
And if you get a cat fixed, they will loose some of their feralness and not hunt as much.
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Cats are domestic animals, not wild. Spay and neuter your cats. Give them shelter from the cold and provide plenty of food and clean fresh water for them daily. It's the only humane thing to do. Humans have a moral and legal responsiblity to care for their domestic animals.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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*opens door and lets domestic pigs, horses, barn cats, chickens, goats, and ostriches in*
There, happy?
I hate to break peoples hearts, but most of the meats you eat, lived much worse lives than animals on a small farm like mine. If you want to talk about inhumane lets talk about the Industrial chicken farms, where they cut the beaks off the birds so they can put them in tiny cages and not worry about them fighting with each other.
oh, and lets get something strait, I'm talking about barnyard cats, you should always get you pets fixed.
[ December 29, 2004, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: J T Stryker ]
Posts: 1094 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Um, anyway, I'm glad you're taking in the kittens, Spacey. Good luck with them. You should take pictures once theyre comfortable with you, to share with us Posts: 3636 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:What's the most responsible decision as a pet owner?
...to become a non-pet owner.
Hip replacement surgery for pets, training woofie to doodle in a Tupperware, wiping woofie's bottom, cleaning the litterbox, paying to have the critter's genitalia modified, driving around with woofie on your lap...
Stop playing with your food, and eat!
Posts: 2655 | Registered: Feb 2004
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JT, thanks for the education and the other perspective. There's a lot I don't know about non-companion animals. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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i would recommend not ignoring JT's observations and making a judgement based on his experience and the other perspectives being offered. i doubt many (if any) on the forum know what type of environment you are going to be placing these cats in. it's true that many cats from a shelter will not / cannot hunt mice. it's also true that spay/neutering can curb those behaviors you wish to encourage.
Posts: 494 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I tend to agree with gnmmmshing. Man, that's a hard name to pronounce!
I think the vast majority of us are coming from the perspective of companion animal experiences, and we really just don't have a clue. I count myself into that crowd.
It sounds, though, that JT does know what he's talking about.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Feral cats often carry FIV (Feline Immunosupressive Virus), which they pass on to other cats they come in contact with. FIV is fatal for cats (it doesn't affect people though).
Several years ago my cat caught FIV, and I had to make the choice of keeping him indoors for life in permanent quarantine, or putting him to sleep. My cat was miserable indoors in my teensy quarters (he was used to being an outside cat), and so I had to put him to sleep to protect the other neighborhood cats from getting FIV. It was an awful decision. Please don't let your cats become feral and create this kind of situation for others.
(Note: it wasn't available for my cat back then, but a FIV vaccine for cats is starting to become available, though it's still controversial.)
Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Yeah my cousins live on a farm out in Pennsylvania too. They don't spay and neuter their dogs. So after a litter of puppies my uncle takes them out and shoots all but maybe one. I know that it is "What they do" but it is still a huge waste of life. I don't understand how these people can be so rabidly pro-life when it comes to humans.
Kittens have it even worse than the puppies. At least the puppies are killed relatively humanely. Kittens are even more likely to become prey animals because they are more independent from the mother with fewer survival skills.
I understand that raising animals is a fact of life, however my uncle treats the pigs on the pig farm he superintends better than his "pets". The pigs get air conditioning, and they do make sure the as many of the piglets as possible grow to adulthood. Injured piglets do get killed, but at least more humanely than the kittens.
Space Opera I'd say spay and neuter them. If it physically isn't possible to catch them it is one thing. If we were back in the 1800s and had a more severe rodent problem and the grain was your livelihood, then no. But we don't live back then either.
The lack of raging hormones may also help make them more family oriented, and even if they are peeing outside the male's pee won't smell as bad. (Have you ever smelled fresh cat pee outside?) Not to mention that your dog may develop a fondess for rolling in it, and if you can do *anything* to minimize the stench it is up to you.
If you live far enough out in the country people will abandon pets out by you anyway, and you'll end up with lots of cats after a while without even trying. So when you can prevent population growth you might as well.
posted
Another argument against not spaying and neutering the animals: I know a lot of farmers who DO kill feral cats that come on their land -- there's too many of them, they're a nuisance, and they can't afford to take care of them.
If you help to increase the feral cat population, you're adding to the likelihood that farmers who don't have the money and patience to deal with them are going to kill them.
Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
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and whatever you decide... keep it a secret from hatrack. if you decide it is best to spay/neuter the cats, we don't need to know. and if you decide not to, you'll likely get an earful for it. Posts: 494 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Space Opera, look into free spay/neuter clinics in your area. I recently found one to take my kitten to, since I'm a bit poor at the moment. Ask a vet or look for signs on public bulletin boards.
I also wanted to remark on the cultural differences, even within the United States, regarding the role of domestic cats and dogs. My family lives in an agricultural area and outdoor pets are usually the norm. Families that I know often have several cats and dogs and provide them food and water and usually have them spayed and neutered. It's not customary to spend a lot of money or medical attention on ailing animals and those that are not family pets are usually put down. I recently housesat for a woman here in town that has two incredibly pampered, incredibly well cared-for cats. I mentioned something about having outside cats growing up and she was a bit upset and defensive.
I hope that we can realize that cultural differences come into play here. Rural families are not heartless for making their animals sleep outside, and urban pet owners are not crazy kooks for giving their pets prescription medications (though this was something I hadn't encountered much before). Both groups of people are behaving within pre-defined cultural standards and I think a certain amount of leeway, while still allowing for protection against abuse and neglect, is called for. Let's not be making one another ill over differences in understanding.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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FWIW, I grew up in the fields of my grandfather's farm. Cats were work animals, not pets -- but they were fed and spayed/neutered. No other vet visits, but leaving them fertile was beyond the pale for the mores of this small German farming community.
I remember my grandfather making this disgusting slop for them, and I was horrified. *grin He would stew together crunchy dog kibble, milk, and table scraps of fat until it all mushed together. They ate it, but they never looked particularly enthusiastic about it.
When I would go to his house, I'd sneak a pouch or two of Tender Vittles from our cat's stash. Even the most feral ones adored me.
[ December 30, 2004, 06:21 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
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posted
We had farm cats too-- unneutered, unspayed. Of course, they weren't feral; they had lots of human interaction, and we always set out food (CAT food, mind you) for them.
If you don't want kittens, spay and neauter them. If you want a continuous re-population of cats, don't.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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Scott, it was absolutely horrible. Big round crunchy chunks floating in scalded milk, with little random bits of table scraps being stirred in (pork fat, leftover stuffing, whatever). Sometimes a raw egg. It smelled so bad. I lost a lot of weight when I stayed at my Grandpa's.
[ December 30, 2004, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
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It's pretty clear that 'cultural differences' trump all the good, sound reasons people have given for spaying and neutering cats. If only people were, like, able to change and be adaptable to new information.
*goes off to find some stump water to cure what ails him*
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Living on a farm, and owning many "feral" cats (or what we affectionately like to term "barn cats") -- I would say, please spay/neuter.
Understand -- most of mine are NOT spayed & neutered, so I'm coming from the other end of the telescope -- I have seen the result.
We began spaying & neutering when we had one or two cats. And all was well. However, we have a neighbor (about 1 mile away) who has about 40 feral cats, and of course, those cats eventually found that our place had a lot less competition for food, etc. and began coming here. But too wild to catch to fix. So they began having kittens, and kittens, and kittens! Oh My! And tom cats would arrive for out of thin air -- ones we had never seen before (and we have very few neighbors) to service the females.
It gets totally out of hand. We probably have over 30 cats roaming our land at this time. We have NO mice, I agree -- but it is just embarrasing to have anyone come to our place and see all these cats! (My mom and my daughter won't let me have any of them destroyed). They do thin down every year as the inbreeding causes problems, and then the distemper/feline leukemia takes out a good chunk (because I'm not going to pay for vaccinations for cats I can't even catch or afford to get fixed). And a few get killed by skunks, and possums and coyotes at an early age. (Yes, skunks will kill kittens)
Please - think of your neighbors.
I know that spaying is expensive -- they sometimes want over $100 for it here - but far less expensive than the alternative..
posted
That's a good point, FG-- our little farm was the only one around that was operating. All of our neighbor's cats were pets.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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Is there any way to gauge how spaying/neutering will affect a cat's ability or desire to hunt mice? We have one cat who's fixed, but loves to hunt lizards when we let him outside. Of course, he's also the one that was sexually assaulted by our pet rabbit, so maybe he's limited to very, very small critters.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Don't know how to gauge that -- but our one housecat, who has been spayed for many many years, still frequently catches mice. She LOVES hunting them.
I often have found females are much better mousers than males, btw...
posted
If you live on a farm and wish to maintain a cadre of vigilant mousers why not keep one breeding pair and spay/neuter the others? Surely this is possible just as it's possible to regulate the size of your swine and cattle herds.
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Stormy, please re-read my post. I didn't say that cultural differences mean you shouldn't fix your cats. (in fact, I suggested finding a free spay/neuter clinic) I said that cultural differences mean we shouldn't get all mean and condescending to one another over this.
But if you want to get all mean and condescending, by all means, feel free.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote:If you live on a farm and wish to maintain a cadre of vigilant mousers why not keep one breeding pair and spay/neuter the others?
You can't, Darren. Because this assumes that if you have "one breeding pair" that THAT pair will be the only ones that breed. The truth is, cats will travel miles to breed with others. If you have a cat in heat, you will suddenly have many MORE males show up than the one YOU own. And vice versa - your male will service every other female within several miles if they are outdoor cats.
You have very little control over outside animals, especially cats.
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Farmgirl, can't you keep one or two breeding females? It probably doesn't matter where the tom comes from that impregnates them and you can fix the litter when they're born. It seems like the real problem would be if you had a tom yourself that was going around sowing his oats all over town.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Well then you maintain only a single breeding female. I understand that it would be impossible to regulate the number of stray tom's that show up to woo her but you will still have control of the number of offspring.
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I know that it is "What they do" but it is still a huge waste of life. I don't understand how these people can be so rabidly pro-life when it comes to humans. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
