posted
This is a question I have had for years, and have not quite been able to figure out.
If an alcoholic is coming to a party or a gathering, or you are going out to dinner, is it OK to have a drink? I feel there are two(or probably more) schools of thought on this. I need some ideas. There are lots of different possible scenarios, of course, but basically:
Is it my responsibility not to have a drink around an alcoholic, or is it the alcholic's responsiblity not to have a drink when alcohol is around?
Thoughts?
[ January 08, 2005, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
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posted
I think alcohol should only be available to people who specifically ask for it in a party situation. If it is in a punch that everyone is being served from, what if an underage person comes to your party? Or someone who doesn't drink for religious purposes? Or is on a MAOI and the combination of alcohol and cheese could kill them?
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posted
That's not really what I mean. I would not put out a punch like that if there were underage drinkers, or a nondrinker wo might inadvrtantly have some. I am talking abut it being there at all.
I guess I amwondering what AA says to alcoholics about when they are in social situatuion. Avoid them, or be strong?
[ January 08, 2005, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
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posted
It's not really clear from your question if you're talking about:
a. an active alcoholic (or someone who regularly gets drunk when alcohol is present)
b. Someone who has been trying to quit alcohol for a short time.
c. Someone who has been in "recovery" for years.
The context is important, in answer to your last question. Most people trying for sobriety stay away from situations where there's a lot of alcohol for months or years. As being a nondrinker becomes "normal" over the years for them, they tend to ease themselves back into those situations. (just a general picture here - there are all kinds of variations in how people do it.)
But in any case, the choices people make about taking a drink are always their own. It's their responsibility and nobody else's.
Unless, of course, they are driving home. If you're the one pouring the drinks or providing the alcohol, you need to know when to cut someone off or have someone drive them home. But that's something you need to be aware of with everyone if you're playing hostess.
posted
Well, at Thanksgiving we had several bottles of wine, and my uncle whom I'd never before met came.
He is a recovering alcoholic, which I did not know. I told him that had I known, I would not have purchased any wine, and he told me that he would not want me to do that at all - he would not have any wine at dinner, but he had no problem with others drinking in his presence.
I don't know what is proper, or expected, but I know that next time when I have him over, I won't serve wine just as a courtesy. Not because he asked me not to, but because I just think that's appropriate as a hostess, that I take my guests preferences into account. Since my husband and I drink so very rarely (we might open a bottle of wine twice a year) it's no big loss.
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quote: I don't know what is proper, or expected, but I know that next time when I have him over, I won't serve wine just as a courtesy. Not because he asked me not to, but because I just think that's appropriate as a hostess, that I take my guests preferences into account. Since my husband and I drink so very rarely (we might open a bottle of wine twice a year) it's no big loss.
I guess I can understand that if it is just you, your husband, and your other guests.
If there will be more people, who more or less have learned that moderate wine drinking is something you do when you host, will you announce the change? People might ask. If they do, whether or not you say something about your uncle or not, he will be made uncomfortable because he will know the change in routine is all about him. Even though he told you he doesn't have a problem with it.
If it's a larger group of people who drink responsibly, I'd urge you to go with "business as usual" and take him at his word.
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posted
I asked a friend about this. He has been in recovery for about 20 years. While he will come to gatherings with alcohol, he prefers to know in advance. But if we went out to a restaurant, he would not expect us not to order a drink on his account.
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posted
Yeah, the MAOI thing IS true. I found a good explanation on WebMD, but had a lot of trouble accessing the page as they are in process of working on their site to make it better. I was able to access this page but it was hard so I'll just quote it for now:
quote:Every time you eat chicken liver, aged cheese, broad-bean pods, or pickled herring, tyramine floods into your brain. Normally, MAO enzymes take care of this potentially harmful tyramine excess. But if you're taking an MAO inhibitor, the MAO enzyme can't stop tyramine from building up. This is exactly what happened when the drugs were introduced in the 1960s. Because no one knew about the tyramine connection, a wave of deaths from brain hemorrhages swept the country. Other patients taking MAO inhibitors experienced severe headaches caused by the rise in blood pressure. These early side effects were particularly disturbing because nobody knew why they were happening.
So in summary MAOIs are monoamine oxidase inhibitors, an old antidepressant class that can cause fatalities if a diet containing much tyramine is used.
Cool, huh? Now that we have other less food-restricted choices the MAOIs hardly get used. I read a book in Analog about 12 years ago about a computer that murdered a man by changing his low tyramine diet to a high tyramine diet. I was so impressed when I read that.
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posted
Okay -- well, I'm an alcoholic with nearly 20 years in A.A. So I guess it is okay to give my perspective on this.
It may depend on the person, but it does NOT bother me if my friends chose to drink socially around me. (I'm not talking about getting falling down drunk -- that upsets me just because I don't want them doing that -- but I'm talking a glass of wine or a social drink at a gathering). Most people who know me just know to have something non-alcoholic available, like Pepsi or whatever, so I have a choice.
But the most IMPORTANT thing -both for the new alcoholic and for those around awhile -- is to make sure that no one pressures this person in any way to have a drink. You would never believe how many times I have said "no, thank you" to a drink offer (around people who do not know I'm a recovered alcoholic) just to have them say "ah, come'on -- why not? Just a glass of wine? Everyone else is.... etc. etc." Like it is their social mission to get me to "loosen up" by having a social drink with them. This type of behavior is not okay.
However, I see less and less of that as I get older, simply because there seem to be more people around who make it a personal choice to not drink, not due to alcoholism, but just because they don't want to. So it is becoming more respected now to just say "no" and never having someone second-guess you.
Liz, you're not clear in your initial post whether this is a recovered alcoholic who is current not drinking, or if this is an active alcoholic who you don't want to drink at your gathering.
But you might also think of it the same way you would if you had a severe diabetic at your party.
Off hand say, "Oh, I realize you can't have that chocolate dessert over here, but we did make one with Splenda as a second choice over there." Just let them know there is an option, that you have thought of them in advance. That is very respectful. Don't single them out, but inform them of anything like that they need to know.
As a host, there are times when I might offer something a second time, if I get the feeling that an initial refusal was because a guest thought it was polite, or wasn't sure the offer was genuine. Never, ever with alcohol. such a personal thing, and so many reasons someone might have for not drinking that are absolutely none of my business.
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quote:But the most IMPORTANT thing -both for the new alcoholic and for those around awhile -- is to make sure that no one pressures this person in any way to have a drink. You would never believe how many times I have said "no, thank you" to a drink offer (around people who do not know I'm a recovered alcoholic) just to have them say "ah, come'on -- why not? Just a glass of wine? Everyone else is.... etc. etc." Like it is their social mission to get me to "loosen up" by having a social drink with them. This type of behavior is not okay.
I've noticed this tendency. It also applies to junk food, but is particularly egregious with alcohol.
quote:Assuming we are spiritually fit, we can do all sorts of things alcoholics are not supposed to do. People have said we must not go where liquor is served; we must not have it in our homes; we must shun friends who drink; we must avoid moving pictures which show drinking scenes; we must not go into bars; our friends must hide their bottles if we go to their houses; we mustn't think or be reminded about alcohol at all. Our experience shows that this is not necessarily so.
We meet these conditions every day. An alcoholic who cannot meet them, still has an alcohoic mind; there is something the matter with his spiritual status. His only chance for sobriety would be some place like the Greenland Ice Cap, and even there an Eskimo might turn up with a bottle of scotch and ruin everything!
Alcoholics Anonymous, Third Edition
Straight from the horses mouth, as it were . . .
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The person I am referring to needs to be on that Icelandic cap, I think. I have had the hardest time answering the question as to whether the person is actively drinking, in recovery, or recovering. She is actively trying to recover, but drinks and does really destructive things. I cannot stand her. There are very few people in the world I can say that about. She is my father-in-law's girfriend, and they are mutually destructive, really. Sadly, my husband and I decided that it is difficult to tell whether she is drunk or sober, because she is so unpleasant either way.
She has not been at family functions for a while, because she is not allowed to leave the stae o' Maine, due to a plethora of destructive acts. Now, he has started to bring her around again, and everyone is on pins and needles.
She does not bring out the good in me, I'm afraid.
It is good to know that a truly recovered alcoholic will be able to handle the presence of alcohol, since it is such a part of our nation's social structure. How hard it must be!
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posted
I've been off chocolate since April. While it isn't as inherently addictive as Alcohol, it is much more pervasive. I had been trying to get off sugar and sweets for three years prior, and been battered with continual relapses. But one day it finally took and stuck for me. Still, every Sunday my in laws offer me something to be polite, and then apologize profusely after I say "No thanks". I mean, I can't say I'll stay this way forever. Saying that is one of the surest ways to lose it.
One interesting theory I have read is that the root of most addictions is codependence. Either codependence is causing a lot of the pain that we "use" in order to escape, or codependent situations cause resolve to cave in. Not being able to stay sober around situations where alcohol is available would point to this.
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quote: She is actively trying to recover, but drinks and does really destructive things.
I don't consider her "actively trying to recover" if she is still also drinking. She's just in denial then, and likes to fool herself into saying she's trying. But she's still choosing to pick up the drink. (I've been there, done that -- so this isn't just a judgmental call on my part)
In such a situation, if it were me, Liz, I would just not have the alcohol around at a gathering at your home. Because she is not at that stage yet -- if alcohol was present, she would probably drink it and then do something to embarrass you, which isn't worth it. Sorry you have to babysit like that until she figures it out.
There are many many people I had to apologize to when I quit drinking for good -- for doing very embarrassing things to them or their gatherings - at least the things I could remember.
Understand even if you don't serve alcohol at a gathering she is at -- that doesn't mean she hasn't stashed her own somewhere. Many drunks feel like they "can't" handle the anxiety of a social setting (party, etc.) and interacting with other people without first having a drink to deal with it. Depends on the person.
She is in a terrible situation. My hub's father also drinks, and when he is not drinking he is "just drinking beer." (I love that one)
She needs to be locked up, truly. She has driven drunk and crashed the car a number of times, assaulted a police officer, and assaulted an old man. She is on probation, and keep s breaking it, and I have no sympathy for her anymore, sorry. She is going to kill someone. It is a long story, but I am at the end of my patience.
In general, I think alcohol is less of a social push than it was in my parents' generation and when I was in college. People say "kids these days" are binge drinking, etc, but I think we were more dangerous with our drinking. Think of all the things that have changed since i turned 18 in Vermont in 1981. MADD, happy hours curtailed, drinking age raised, major consequences for drinking and driving, DARE.
I think "kids these days" are much more aware and safe about their drinking than we were. Even at my college, a drink-it-up fest, there are many more restrictions than there were.
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posted
Elizabeth - it's truly okay for you and others to set boundaries for your own personal safety and health. With no need to apologize for it, either. Do what is best for you. It's a sure shot the practicing drunks in your life will not . . .
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posted
FG, I'm glad you replied...I didn't know you were in recovery -- and 20 years! Wow. My husband is 7 years in recovery and passionate about it...goes to meetings and has sponsored more guys that I can count. I love when he sponsors the young guys, teens.
You're right too, about people being pushy with drinking. I don't drink, but out of choice; I don't like it and never have. But as I was travelling for work last year I was pressured heavily by my coworkers to drink with them in the evenings. In the end, I became the designated driver (which I liked, since I wanted to get back to the hotel in one piece). But even at home, with people who know my husband is in recovery, it gets pushed. Tonight we went out with friends (dinner at the Old Spagetti Factory with all our kids), and one of their guests (someone who doesn't know us) bought us a round of drinks. We sent the drinks back with our thanks, but I was pretty surprised. Normally, there isn't any drinking around us, not because we're death on it, but we just don't get into that kind of scene.
Liz, I ditto what FG said...were it me, I wouldn't have alcohol there, because this gal isn't in recovery. ('Course, were it me, there wouldn't ever be alcohol. I don't quite get the enjoyment of it since it always makes me kinda cranky. )
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I don't drink for religious reasons (although the alcoholics in my life confirmed that it was a good decision, regardless), and very open about the fact that I don't drink - at all - for religious reasons. One place I worked a little over a decade all knew about my drinking choice, and yet at all the company functions, especially when a toast was being made, they'd try to force some champagne or other alcohol in my hands. I declined and tried to get ginger ale or something equally innocent, and they continually got all huffy. "It's just champagne. Take the damn glass." And I continued to refuse. They were indignant that I had the nerve.
I didn't last long at that job. But then, I didn't sleep around either, and that seemed to bother them, too. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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If she is drinking and driving, and in violation of her probation, I would urge you to give serious consideration to reporting her to the officer or social worker monitoring her case. These folks are so overworked (usually) that the chances of them actually catching someone in violation is very small. But the consequences of her violations are serious, not just for her, but for the community she lives (and drives) in.
Eventually, she will kill someone. Every time she gets behind the wheel when she is impaired is, to my mind, a chance for involuntary manslaughter. She's doing it willfully, however, so I even think it rises (morally) to a higher level crime.
An innocent life (or lives) will be snuffed out by her uncaring and unthinking attitude.
If you know of violations, rat her out. It's a tough thing to do but the life you save is worth it. IMHO.
Besides, it'll solve that pesky problem of having her around. Guaranteed once she finds out, she won't be coming to your house or meeting you on social occasions any time soon.
posted
Bob, She has lost her license, and Steve's dad is supposedly being better about keeping his keys hidden. You are right, but I don't think I could do it.
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