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The Marines' opinions have been shaped by their participation in hundreds of hours of operations over the past two months. Their assessments differ sharply from those of the interim Iraqi government and the Bush administration, which have said that Iraq is on a certain — if bumpy — course toward peaceful democracy.

"I feel we're going to be here for years and years and years," said Lance Cpl. Edward Elston, 22, of Hackettstown, N.J. "I don't think anything is going to get better; I think it's going to get a lot worse. It's going to be like a Palestinian-type deal. We're going to stop being a policing presence and then start being an occupying presence. ... We're always going to be here. We're never going to leave."

...

Several members of the platoon said they were struck by the difference between the way the war was being portrayed in the United States and the reality of their daily lives.

"Every day you read the articles in the States where it's like, 'Oh, it's getting better and better,' " said Lance Cpl. Jonathan Snyder, 22, of Gettysburg, Pa. "But when you're here, you know it's worse every day."

Pfc. Kyle Maio, 19, of Bucks County, Pa., said he thought government officials were reticent to speak candidly because of the upcoming U.S. elections. "Stuff's going on here but they won't flat-out say it," he said. "They can't get into it."

....

But the Marines said their frustrations run deeper. Several said the Iraqi security forces who are supposed to ultimately replace them were nowhere near ready and may never be.

"They can't take care of themselves," said Lance Cpl. Matthew Combs, 19, of Cincinnati, who added that he didn't think the National Guardsmen "can do anything. They just do what we tell them to do."

....

But Perez said he came to think that war in Iraq was unrelated to his anger. "How do I put this?" he said. "First of all, this is a whole different thing. We're supposed to be looking for al Qaeda. They're the ones who are supposedly responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks. This has no connection at all to Sept. 11 because this war started just by telling us about all the nuclear warheads over here."

Snyder, who was listening, added: "Pretty much I think they just diverted the war on terrorism. I agree with the Afghanistan war and all the Sept. 11 stuff, but it feels like they left the bigger war over there to come here. And now, while we're on the ground over here, it seems like we're not even close to catching frigging bin Laden."

Perez said he thought that in some ways he was still fighting terrorists "and I can see how they might attack the United States in the future. It's a link, but it's not really based in the same thing."

Perez added that he now believes the primary reason for the U.S. presence is to help the Iraqis. "But they don't seem like they want to be helped," he said. "I've only been here two months, but every time you go out, people give you bad looks and it just seems like everybody wants to shoot you."

....

When the Marines returned to their truck, Autin and Kelly began to debate the merits of the American presence in Iraq.

"And, by the way, why are we here?" Autin said.

"I'll tell you why we're here," Kelly replied. "We're here to help these people."

Autin agreed and said he supported the mission.

He added later that it was difficult to wage the battle when American commanders were holding them back.

"We feel they care more about Iraqi civilians than they do American soldiers," he said.

Asked if he was concerned that the Marines would be punished for speaking out, Autin responded: "We don't give a crap. What are they going to do, send us to Iraq?"

MSNBC

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Posts: 1592 | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | 

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Why? You just came out and said that you preferred to believe your two relatives over other evidence.

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I believe those actually involved, not those trying to sell you their "spin".

They're the actual soldiers over there. If you believe John Kerry more than them about what is happening over there, that's YOUR fault.

Trust me, a baker who actually bakes knows more about what he's baking than the person who has only read a cook book.

That was one of the most flawed arguments I had ever seen.

Actually believe the biased NEWS over the people actually living it? No thanks.

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So are the Marines in the article just flat out lying?

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I'm not stupid enough to see a couple of quotes by one soldier (who may agree or may not agree depending on many factors) and assume that is his rock hard stance on the complete war and that it is represents all troops.

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Of course, these Marines do not necessarily represent the general mood of all the fighting men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan. However, I think this article is an important read if you are still undecided about the election and you feel you want to know more about the situation in Iraq before you make up your mind.

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Posts: 1592 | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | 

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Apparently, you are the one who took the word of your two relatives and assume that THEY represent all troops.

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"I believe them over your article any day.
Try again."

Why?

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Posts: 1170 | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Your relative's view: "Iraqi women walking up to the troops and bringing them Iraqi tea."

Marines interviewed by Washington Post: "I've only been here two months, but every time you go out, people give you bad looks and it just seems like everybody wants to shoot you."

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Posts: 1592 | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | 

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You, like President Bush, want to focus on a specific spin of the Iraq war and ignore all other evidence.

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Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Or you like Senator Kerry (and I use the term "Senator" loosely)

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Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Success in Samarra
It's been a busy two weeks here. For obvious reasons I won't talk directly about the recent operations in Samarra. But I would like to point out some interesting discussions on other blogs. Wretchard at Belmont Club has a great discussion on the Samarra operation and how the Iraqi Security Forces (ISF) performed. Jason Van Steenwyck at Countercolumn also has some great observations. Finally Phil Carter exhibits cautious optimism about the future of Iraq after Samarra at Intel-Dump.

All I'll say about Samarra is that, compared to operations in Fallujah and Ramadi in April, the ISF really did a great job. I think that the leadership realized that they were inadequately trained and prepared back in April and the intensive training that they've received since then was apparent in their willingness to engage the enemy in Samarra. There is reason to be optimistic.

Now I just want to mention one thing about the media coverage of the Samarra operation. I just don't understand why the media seems to suggest in every story that US soldiers are, might, maybe, may have shot and killed innocent people. I understand the need to report on the horrors of war and the impact of the fighting on civilians, but it seems like all the stories suggest that US soldiers were intentionally killing civilians.

Reporters flocked to our brigade when word got out about the operation. We had CNN, LA Times, Time, AFP, NPR et al.... CNN's Jane Arraf was embedded with the unit that conducted the raid on the Golden Mosque. They were present during most of the fighting and had a perfect opportunity to report on the fighting between our soldiers and the AIF. I recall reading one of the CNN reports which included comments from family members of people we had killed and all of them insisted that they were innocent people who weren't fighting or involved with terrorists. But of course they're going to say that. No one is going to admit to a reporter that their family members were fighting against us. But I also know that our soldiers are well trained at, and after seven months here they are capable of, distinguishing combatants from civilians. And if an Iraqi male is walking through the streets of a embattled city at 0200 carrying an AK-47 there is a high probability that he is actually an AIF member.

I just wish the media reports I've seen didn't always start from the assumptions that 1) we're losing the fight over here and 2) US soldiers are going to violate the law of war.

Time will tell if our recent efforts are successful. But, like I said earlier, there is reason to be optimistic.

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A Response
I don't regularly respond to comments but I appreciate the comments AzRez made and feel like they deserve a response. They are questions that many Americans have about what we are doing over here. And I understand AzRez's apprehension about what's going. In light of his (her?) sister's call-up it's natural to be concerned about the risks and benefits of our operations. Hopefully I can explain my perspective a bit better.

Why is the Army putting so much effort into rebuilding the Iraqi infrastructure, economy, and government? That is the basic question. It may seem wasteful and somewhat inappropriate to use the most highly trained military in the world to educate village councils on democracy, distribute seeds and fertilizer to farmers, or hand-out school supplies and soccer balls to children. While I've primarily written about our humanitarian efforts you can rest assured that our soldiers still go out and engage the enemy each day. The simple answer is that we put so much effort into humanitarian and civil-military operations because they will help us accomplish our mission and get us home faster.

You see, there's a viscious cycle of violence here in Iraq that, in many cases, feeds off of the poor, unemployed, and disillusioned. The projects we initiate are contracted to Iraqi companies that employ thousands of laborers and provide a much needed infusion of cash into the local economies. (Our soldiers don't actually go out and build all these projects.) We're trying to tackle the economic issues because, as the economy improves, so will security.

We advise local leaders because they really do need some assistance in figuring out how to run a government outside of a dictatorship. Again, it may seem strange that soldiers are advising government officials on democracy, civil society and the rule of law. But I think many Americans would be surprised at the talant and skills that our soldiers and officers have. In addition to being able to "find, fix and destroy the enemy through fire and maneuver" we have engineers, scientists, economists, doctors and, yes...even lawyers whose skills are being used each day. There are undoubtedly other organizations that would be better suited to advise local Iraqi leaders but, for some strange reason, none are willing to come and lend their expertise (at least not outside Baghdad).

AzRez is right. You don't normally go to war to increase the other countries' governmental efficiency. But if we were to stop all our civil-military efforts right now it would likely result in a dramatic increase in violence, a government that is incapable of managing its affairs and, ultimately, the much talked about civil war or "replacement" dictator. If that were to happen, then the efforts of those of us here right now, and those who have died, would truly have been in vain. That is why we can't stop now. Because it's not enough just to kill your enemies. They will only be replaced with new ones. You have to convince them that their future really will be better if they choose to stop fighting.

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Thursday, September 23, 2004
I feel compelled to apologize each time I take such a long hiatus from posting. It doesn't happen intentionally, I just get wrapped up in what is going on that, by the time I'm done each day, I just go back to my room to sleep.

I haven't had the opportunity to go on any interesting trips lately. My work now is mostly with the Brigade staff helping to plan our the course we will take over the remaining months. The year is slowly moving along and many of us are starting to look forward to the things we will do when we get back to Germany next year. But I can't help but wonder if, when we finally do leave, we will have accomplished all that we set out to do back in February.

Each day there are successes and failures. Most are minor accomplishments that never make the news but are very real to the Iraqis and soldiers that participate. We renovate and build schools, hospitals, courthouses, police and fire stations all across our area of operations. We build water treatment plants for villages that have never had clean, fresh water. We just started job training programs to help the many unemployed Iraqis across our province. And less noticeably but perhaps more importantly, our leaders work each day with the local civic leaders in villages and towns to help them organize and manage their affairs.

These efforts are almost always rewarding. The Iraqis are grateful for our assistance and their joy and happiness is infectious. The soldiers that participate in these projects can feel proud that their efforts are truly worthwhile.

But every day there are also setbacks. Not only continued sporadic attacks but also failures, mostly on the part of local leaders, to accept responsibility and do their jobs. It is somewhat understandable that many local officials are unable to really take charge, make decisions and get results. For most of Iraq's recent history (even before Saddam's era) all decisions of any importance were made in Baghdad. Everything was centralized. So now we have local leaders who are incapable of making decisions without approval from the central authority. Even if they are now empowered to make those decisions.

I am still optimistic (most of the time). Yesterday we had an event in Tikrit that even made the front page of the Washington Post. After eighteen months, and multiple delays, the main bridge in Tikrit across the Tigris river was finally reopened to two way traffic. The bridge is a crucial link between Tikrit, Kirkuk and Tuz. It's reopening will provide a boost to the local economy and help bring the city back to a more normal existence. Despite attacks on it's workers, accidents that destroyed critical parts, flooding river waters and hosts of bureaucratic delays the bridge was finally completed. And so I remain hopeful that Iraq, like the Tikrit bridge, will be able to overcome the attacks, acts of nature, and bureaucratic inefficiencies that plague it and eventually become a functional, if not pretty, democracy.

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Tuesday, September 07, 2004
The End Is Near!!
Well it's finally happened. The educated elite in Britain and the States are predicting a breakdown in the Iraqi government and civil war. The three scenarios mentioned as possible outcomes in Iraq are certainly the most widely accepted theories: the Iraqi Interim Government is able to maintain it's grasp on power and hold together the three "warring" groups (Shia, Sunni, Kurd) in one country; the IIG fails to keep a lid on violence and civil war breaks out as the three groups contend for power; or the sectarian violence turns into chaos that spills over into neighboring countries.

Let me propose another possibility based on my own limited observation of what has and hasn't worked over here. The people of Iraq will not put aside their ethnic, tribal or religious differences but will eventually understand that continued violence is only hurting themselves. As they see the benefits (economically and politically) of cooperation and peaceful coexistence with coalition forces they will start pressuring the Iraqis who are attacking coalition and Iraqi Security forces to stop. They will realize that the best and surest way to get the coalition out of Iraq (something almost all Iraqis agree that they want eventually) is to stop those Iraqis in their tribes from attacking us. They will start reporting the foreigners who come into their towns to plan and conduct attacks because they will understand how those attacks personally effect their lives. Once the attacks stop in an area, we can and will start work on many projects to help the people out. They will see the benefits of clean drinking water, new hospitals, schools, roads, radios and television stations. All of these things we have already finished or are working on in many cities and town where the people are allowing us to come in freely without fear of attacks. I think that more and more Iraqis are recognizing the benefits of working with us instead of against us. They may not be overjoyed that we are still here but they realize that cooperation is leading to a better outcome than violent resistence. Allawis' method of negotiating with rebel leaders and groups is starting to work in many parts of Iraq and it is a break from the Iraqi tradition of brutally supressing any form of resistence.

I certainly don't know what Iraq will look like in six months let alone six years. But I do think that the predictions of Chatham house, while still possible, are becoming less and less likely as each month passes.

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Yeah I got a purple heart. I don't care. No soldier wants a purple heart. I'll tell you that much. No soldier wants it. Awards don't mean nothing to me. I don't need anything to prove I was there. I know I was there. I got a constant reminder.

I mean like all the reasons we went to war, it just seems like they're not legit enough for people to lose their lives for and for me to lose my hand and use of my leg and for my buddies to lose their limbs. Like I just had a big conversation with my buddy the other day and like we want to know. I feel like we deserve to know.
Robert Acosta, Purple Heart

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Posts: 1592 | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | 

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Kerry's only source for news of Iraq is the Media and hence, why he doesn't know what is really happening over there.

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Posts: 1592 | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | 

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Again, let me point out the difference between us. I recognize there are dissenting opinions in Iraq. I posted the article so that people will see more than the rosy picture painted by George Bush.

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Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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you hate people who believe other than you don't you Cstroman. Or do you just pray for the souls and hearts of non-bush supporters to be changed?

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Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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But you have to actually show up in congress to get those reports.

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Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jan 1999  |  IP: Logged | 

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umm..ok...and the second part of my "outrageous" assumption?

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Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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And for the record, John Kerry is not getting debriefed on what happens in Iraq as the president is.

Such a claim is blatantly absurd as is the fact of the Presidents First Intelligence briefing once they take office.

I can't believe someone made that claim...

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You do realize that presidential candidates get specialized intelligence briefings not available to regular members of Congress right?

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Such a claim is blatantly absurd as is the fact of the Presidents First Intelligence briefing once they take office.

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You choose to take opinions as FACTS which is the mistake.

You choose to believe the dissenting opinions and ignore the facts.

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Posts: 104 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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I'm sure a I pray for alot more people than you do, if you even pray. Please feel free to inform us of your piety though since you feel inclined to question mine.

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And what religion is it that you consider yourself part of that makes it okay to say things such as this?

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Is this true, or just your speculation? Please link.

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Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Over the past 50 years, challengers have traditionally been given worldwide intelligence briefings in the days or weeks after their nominating conventions.

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Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | 

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I'm sure a I pray for alot more people than you do, if you even pray.

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Posts: 104 | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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And what religion is it that you consider yourself part of that makes it okay to say things such as this?

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Soon after the Democratic convention in 1992, National Security Adviser Brent Scowcroft contacted Washington attorney Samuel Berger to offer intelligence briefings to Governor Clinton. At that time, Berger, who subsequently became Deputy National Security Adviser, was serving as a primary adviser to Governor Clinton on foreign policy matters. Scowcroft and Berger agreed that, as a first step, DCI Robert Gates would travel to Little Rock and provide a worldwide intelligence briefing.

ODCI.gov

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Posts: 1592 | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | 

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I think you're proceeding from a conclusion to which you have already leapt, and are forcing all your information into a mold designed to fit those assumptions.

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Thanks for defining the whole Kerry Platform for us. I knew I had seen that during his campaign.

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