posted
We haven't been to church in 2 Sundays in a row, part of it was just my not wanting to, and the other part was the fact that my van's transmission went out, culminating in us needing to buy a new van. So last Sunday we had no transportation.
Well, we've gotten a lot of attention, and people have been calling, wanting to encourage us to keep going there. Lots of cards and letters too.
One person who called was the president of our session. (the session is the ruling body of the church, made up of elders)
When he asked what was going on, and Wes filled him in on all of our complaints -specifically the problems with the doctrine and the fact that I'd never been allowed to take part in any ministry opportunities I volunteered for, he was stunned.
He said he knew nothing about it, talking about the ministry issues. And, with my plans for the church library in particular, he was very angry, saying that a church-wide ministry like a library should be approved or turned down by the session, not by one person. He was also upset to hear what I had been told by the assistant pastor about the Bible study issue. (the asst. pastor told me no one would be interested in the types of studies I wanted to do and that I was an elitist who would only find people willing to study the types of books I wanted to in a seminary school)
Then he and Wes talked for hours about doctrine, and he requested that we send him all the information that we'd written up and forwarded to the assistant pastor, including our personal statements on doctrinal issues and my proposal for the library. In his words "This church has never had a functioning library and if Adrian wants to put in the time and effort to build one, we should be giving her all the support she needs, not telling her we aren't interested." His main point was that the decision to turn down the library proposal was not the assistant pastor's to make - it should have been made by the session, and instead they never knew about it.
If you're wondering why I didn't submit my proposal to the session in the first place, it's because the assistant pastor asked me to send it to him. He was in the process of gathering ministry proposals for 2005, and so I assumed he was doing that so he could then collect them all and turn them over to the session in one bunch. Now I find out he didn't even turn mine in.
As for the doctrinal issue - he admitted that our doctrinal statement was weak and needed to be re-written. Though, with Wes and I in the minority, we may well find that the new doctrinal statement will deviate even further from our beliefs than the one we have now.
Wes, however, thinks that's okay. He just wants the statement to be strong enough that the church stands for something - even if it doesn't line up totally with us. Like he told the session leader, right now we don't even know how much we disagree because the church doesn't have a stated position.
So where do I stand on things? Well, I don't know. I am having a hard time committing myself to staying and working things out, I guess I went through so much emotional turmoil before I got to the point that I was ready to leave that once that decision was made, it's hard now to change it. Wes thinks we need to give things a chance, especially now that our issues have the ear of the ruling body of the church.
So I think we're back where we started - I have agreed to stay until a new full time pastor is hired, and then we'll see where to go from there. The only problem is if the session approves my library proposal, I don't know whether or not to commit to it - I don't want to take a position if I've not certain I'll be at that church in 3 months.
[ February 07, 2005, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Belle ]
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posted
I hope you can work it out, Belle. You know, it is your church as much or more than it is his. I know how terrible I feel that some of my favorite church members left. I see why they did, but I am so sad, and miss them terribly.
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If I may offer some advice, I'd suggest working on the library anyway. It's important enough to at least get started, and others may pitch in to help or pick it up if you leave.
While I'm not a practicing religionist now, when I was younger I was very involved with our church and I spent a great deal of time in our library. It got to be a joke that there weren't any books there that didn't have my name somewhere on the signout form.
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posted
You know Belle, it actually sounds like the assistant pastor is intimidated by you. He might fear that if he were to give you a real place, you would have more influence than he would like.
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Belle, what did they say about the asst pastor standing you and Wes up as example of what was wrong with other doctrines? Don't know about you, but if it had happened at our church, the pastor in question would be getting all kinds of mail of protest.
Glad to hear you're getting encouraging feedback. Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I'm glad to hear that your and Wes's concerns are being listened to, and it sounds like it was just this ass't pastor. Much peace and clarity to you over these next few months...
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jeniwren, the session president was not there on the Weds. nights when this happened, he heard about it when people called to tell him - we did not call him.
Apparently, our version of events coincided with what he had already heard, so people had complained to him. We were not the only ones that felt alienated that night.
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posted
So it boils down to Assistant Pastor being on a power trip. It's nice to know that it is more one person than a consortium, of people speculating on you.
*hugs* I was thinking of suggesting you stick it out til the new pastor arrives. I think the church needs your voice to be heard, even as a minority opinion while it looks for guidance.
posted
This is great news. I know not all of your problems are solved, but it sounds like a leap in the reight direction. I think you should do the library now. Even if you leave it will be a nice thing to at least start.
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It is good to hear that the session president agrees that the things that have happend are wrong. Maybe now that he knows about the problem, he can improve the situation for you.
I hope things end up working out for the best.
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posted
If they are really sincere, I would expect them to take some sort of action against the assistant Pastor. They may be hesitant to do this while they are searching for a new Pastor but if they don't they are setting a precident for what constitutes acceptable behavior in your church.
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Belle, I'm so glad that there's finally been a positive development! When one person is so unsupportive, it's hard to remember that not everyone feels the same and it's so great when they finally show you that.
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1) you get back to enjoying your church and feeling like it's home to you. 2) The assistant pastor learns to be more of a maker 3) The congregation becomes less fractious.
posted
Okay, I think we've settled things. I actually have peace about the situation - I got here through prayer and working it all out, and I can say I am excited about going to church again.
No, there was no earth-shattering change, they didn't fire the assistant pastor and hold me up as an example of all that was right with our church.
I'll tell you the process, how I came to this place where I feel good about things again. This might be long, so I'll split it up into a couple of posts.
First, I went to the Christian education committee meeting. As the pseudo-librarian (I have a title, but no job, since we don't really have a library yet) I'm an automatic member of the CE committee, so I was invited. While there I was asked if I would sign on as a team-teacher for the college and career Bible study class. That's something I was very interested in doing because that class does some fascinating studies, and they're not always talking about marriage and family like my class is. (not that there's anything wrong with studying Christian parenting and marriage issues, but I've gotten tired of it - I want to do actual Bible studies again, not reading a book written by another person, but like, reading the Bible. Novel concept, that. Currently that class is studying 2 Corinthians, and I had a wonderful time in the Bible Study hour on Sunday.)
We also talked about why our church is not growing - and why we seem to be really good at getting visitors in the door, but very bad at having them stick around.
I decided that I had nothing to lose, so I said "If you really want to know, I'll tell you." I talked about some of the issues I've raised here, that this church has a lot of strong families, and it's hard for someone new, who isn't related to any of the "founding families" to feel like they fit in. I also voiced that some people's opinions are listened to more than others, and some new ideas are not accepted unless they come from one of those folks.
I made quite a few people mad. Not intentionally, but there you have it - some of them were mad. Surprisingly, I found support where I didn't expect it. Some people spoke up in support of my statements and echoed the things I said. I was surprised because they were people who had been there longer than I had, and I kind of figured they were the type of people that did fit in - but one even said "I've been a member for 20 years, but because my last name is not on the list of founders, I still feel like people don't accept me."
Then, we got to talking about doctrine. I didn't go into my problems with the doctrine issue, I figured I'd already stepped on enough toes. But, in the discussion a statement was made that really hurt my feelings. And, it was made by an elder, who was a member of one of those founding families. His comment - "We're going to lose some people, but we'll be better off for losing them. Sure, we might miss some of them, but the church will be stronger in the long run." I guess the way you get stronger is get any dissenting voices to leave.
posted
It's tough when you hatrack while you're in class - I'm trying to slog through all the stuff required in my online classes today right now, the kids are watching tv about 10 feet away from me, which is nice even though I hate making them park in front of the tube.
Okay, I'm going to backtrack a few days. Last week, Wes was called and asked to do some work at a church. It happened to be a Presbyterian church that was on my list of churches I wanted to visit when we discussed possibly leaving this one.
The drive is a downer, it's 35 minutes away, but I figured we could live with that.
So Wes went to the church, met the pastor, and got to talking to him while he was working. The pastor, naturally, asked him where he went to church. Wes told him and the man said "What is going on in your church?"
He then told Wes that four couples from our church had already visited there. All of them cited issues with doctrine as being a major reason they were considering leaving their church. So again, confirmation that we aren't alone in our feelings.
Wes then called me, and asked me to come out and talk with the pastor and tour the church. I did.
It was nice - better facilities than where we are now. Many more children go there, they have a great youth program....everything seemed nice. Pastor was great - he had a wonderful sense of humor. He asked if our elders would be open for a trade - he'd send the guy currently responsible for the maintenance at his church to our church for Wes. He figures that way he wouldn't have to pay for the plumbing work. Then he said "Of course, you have four children and he only has two, so I might have to throw in a player-to-be-named-later to sweeten the deal."
He was very nice to me, he has seven kids and his wife homeschools. We talked about educational issues some. He seemed to respect my opinion - sometimes you get homeschool proponents who think you're the devil incarnate if you want to teach in public schools like I do. He wasn't like that at all.
It was a nice visit. And yet, when I contemplated going to that church on Sunday, which Wes suggested we do, I felt ill. I just knew it wasn't right. This church had everything we were looking for - great programs for the kids, sound doctrine that agreed with our own, and a pastor we instantly liked upon meeting him. But I wasn't happy with the idea of going there.
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posted
Okay. We didn’t visit the Presbyterian church.
Yesterday. I went to church, and the assistant pastor was away, because he's a member of our search committee and they were off listening to a candidate preach.
That meant our sermon was given by our choir director. When we discussed doctrine in open meetings, it was obvious that the choir director lined up exactly opposite of Wes and myself.
Well, when he sat down to write this sermon he must have tried to come up with every single point he could to refute our position, and he was extremely hostile to any other view. Saying things like “There is nothing plainer in all of scripture than this principle, and anyone who doesn’t accept it just hasn’t read the Bible.”
I take issue with that, because if it was the plainest thing in the Bible, why has it been debated for almost 400 years? I mean the Covenant/Arminian debate goes back to the Synod of Dort in 1618. Actually, it goes back further than that.
So I was angry, and upset, but I tried not to show it. Afterwards, the session president came up to me and told me he appreciated everything we gave him, but he was, in his words “completely messed up” now. He said we had inspired him to do a lot more reading and studying and that he was embarrassed at how little he knew compared with how much he thought he knew about his own beliefs.
He said he admired the fact that Wes and I knew what we believed and why. He complimented us again by saying “You guys are standing on a firm foundation. You stand on scripture, and you can articulate what you believe. Not everyone can.”
So that was really sweet. Then, I told him what was said by that elder at the Christian Education committee meeting, without naming names. To which he said “Adrian, tell me who said that – I’ll find out anyway.” So I did.
He said, “First of all, consider the source. Second of all, I want you to know that what was said was untrue – this church won’t be better off if we lose you and the others that feel the way you do. We’ll be much, much weaker for it.”
Again I figured, what have I go to lose? So I said “Glen, I just want to say this straight – if this church wants to change its doctrine, and my covenant doctrinal beliefs aren’t going to be welcome anymore, than just tell me. I’ll go somewhere else. I just want someone to be honest and up front with me, because right now I feel like everyone is just trying to make us uncomfortable so that we’ll leave on our own. This sermon certainly made me feel like that’s the case.”
He denied it was the case, but of course he can’t speak for everyone. Still, he speaks from a position of authority (the highest position currently in the church, as the leader of the ruling body) So that was somewhat encouraging.
Then he said he believed we (meaning Wes and I)were at this church for a purpose, and that he was as well. And I remembered something. He's not a member of those core, founding families. IN fact, in his conversation with Wes last week, he made the point to say no one was more surprised than he was that he was elected to his position, considering he wasn't related to anyone else in the church. And when I thought about it, I agreed - it was odd. In fact, I think a lot of people were surprised.
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posted
I'm glad you are continuing to be in conversation. I hope the situation works itself out so you feel completely comfortable.
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Presbyterian churches are traditionally reformed, covenant theology churches, and this one was too when it was part of a presbytery. But then it went independent, and while it still has a reformed, covenant doctrinal statement (however poorly written) many members take issue with parts of it. Wes and I are in the "conservative" group that wants to stay with the spirit of the church's original doctrine. We just want the doctrinal statement re-written so it is stronger.
Both sides want a new doctrinal statement. At issue is what it will say.
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posted
I read a few links, some Calvinist and some pro-Arminian, and one alarmed about Neo-Theism and its distinction from Arminianism. Pretty interesting.
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Belle, I think that you should really make the most of the Presbyterian form of church government. There are very specific reasons why the pastor (or assistant pastor) does not have all the power, as it is in some other denominations. The session serves as a tool to keep the church body from becoming disenfranchised, which becomes really important in these types of situations.
I'm really interested to hear about the specifics of this doctrinal debate. If your church is beginning to lean towards Armenianism, then they can hardly call themselves Presbyterians any more, since the Presbyterian church has long been rooted in Calvinism via John Knox.
If anyone else in interested in this debate, I highly recommend www.monergism.com. This is their page on Arminianism which does a great job of explaining the debate (albeit from a strongly Calvinist postion). It's really fascinating.
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posted
Belle, I'm glad things are continuing to improve for you at your church.
It's extremely interesting for me to see a real-life arminianism v. covenant theology issue - I spent a lot of time learning about it in college. My Religion and American History prof. would be fascinated.
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posted
Belle, I have been working on a theory that your situation is proving.
The most important thing for a strong open Christian community is study of the Bible.
The most powerful way to maintain an open community that includes both Christians and non-Christians is study of the Bible, by both.
While all non-Christians will gain a deeper understanding of thier Christian neighbors by studying the bible, it is more important for those who are Christian to study it.
Too often there are lazy Christians who just spout whatever their favorite televanglist or Christian politician spews out over the media. They talk in tag lines and scarey all or nothing pop-Christianity, and they do it with a fevered pitch that only those trying to convince themselves ever master.
These are the people who will misinterpret and will do acts in the name of God that will make God cry.
People like you, who study and strive to understand their religion and thier bible are the Christians that, by their actions and by their example, will convert more, and will bring more peace to the world.
I wish you the best. Have 1/100th the faith in yourself as you have in God and you can not fail.
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posted
Okay, sorry I just let this slide for a day or so while I was obsessing over my speech.
Well, the conversation with the elder was very encouraging. Wes and I came home and discussed it. We spent some time reading from the Bible on different topics, and praying about it together.
We decided to stay, commit ourselves to this church, and re-evaluate after a new pastor is hired. The thing that swayed it was that Wes said he really felt like all this had a purpose - even though there has been disagreement, the dialogue is important. More people have come up to us and asked for information on the different theological views. We have a DVD on the history of the Reformation and Calvinism and it's been passed around among church members, in fact we ordered three more copies. So this debate has sparked a desire in many people to learn more about their faith. That's a positive thing.
As for ministry opportunities, I was going to team teach a Bible Study class, but the director of Christian education has asked me to do something else instead. I feel much more involved and like I'm able to serve.
The final decision was easy to make when I realized that I shouldn't be looking at church as a place that is supposed to just make me feel the way I want to feel. It's about worship, and service to others.
When I put things in the proper perspective, I felt better about it and in fact I now look forward to going to church.
Thanks for your attention - having a place to talk all this out really did help. I'll let you know when we hire someone how things go.
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quote:Too often there are lazy Christians who just spout whatever their favorite televanglist or Christian politician spews out over the media. They talk in tag lines and scarey all or nothing pop-Christianity, and they do it with a fevered pitch that only those trying to convince themselves ever master.
Sadly, I agree with you.
The presbyterian churches do a wonderful job of teaching doctrine - that's why my husband was so well versed in it. The Baptist churches that I grew up in, and that dominate the landscape here in the Bible belt, do not.
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When I was in high school, I had a fantastic English teacher who made parts of the Old and New Testament and Quran required reading - not for the religious content, but for the symbology and references made in literature. It wasn't difficult for the Jews, Christians, Sikhs, or Hindus to read religious text that did not belong to their religion. It did, however, help us all understand other beliefs better, even though that wasn't the purpose behind the reading.
I think a great way to understand other people better is to read about their culture, history, and beliefs. Religious texts are a great place to start.
Hey, can we add Book of Mormon to the list and make my narrow-minded brother, the one who calls me the anti-Christ, read it? Just for fun, ya know? Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Then he said "Of course, you have four children and he only has two, so I might have to throw in a player-to-be-named-later to sweeten the deal."![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
and his wife homeschools. We talked about educational issues some. He seemed to respect my opinion - sometimes you get homeschool proponents who think you're the devil incarnate if you want to teach in public schools like I do. He wasn't like that at all. ![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
