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Author Topic: Morbo, where's your neural network thread?
mothertree
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It kept me from going back to sleep this morning at 4 [Mad] [Wink]
I was thinking about whether consciousness is separate from our neural network, and how free will differs from our dendritic connections. How does a neuron decide to form connections, be they positive or negative?

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mothertree
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:bump:
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Morbo
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I deleted it due to lack of interest, in a huffy snit. Only asthmatics can throw a true huffy snit. [Razz]

Here it is, minus some happy BS:

Why hatrack works
I changed the title because I didn't like it. Originally it was "Those wonderful nodes out there in the dark..."
I can't go on with the scene. I'm too happy![cut sentences] There's nothing else - just us - and the cameras - and those wonderful people out there in the dark. All right, Mr. De Mille, I'm ready for my close-up.--last lines of Sunset Boulevard

I've thought since right after I joined HR, that it was a fundamentally different type of social interaction. I thought of it as electronic telepathy, at first. A few months ago I read The Lucifer Principle by Howard Bloom, which extends Hobbes' ideas from Leviathan. In that book, Hobbes claims that the king is the head of an organism, his kingdom, with his subjects making up the body of the Leviathan. The ancients had similar ideas, not as fully fleshed out as Hobbes did.

Bloom showed that Hobbes had a point, that any society could be considered a neural network and analyzed in that way. Bloom goes on to show how this affects individuals and how societies compete to be at the top of the food chain, but I won't go into that here. Marshall McLuhan had expressed similar ideas as far back as the 50s in his Understanding Media and other books. McLuhan believed that electronic communication networks such as radio, TV and telephones extended the human nervous system, in a very real and not just metaphorical sense.

My point is that any intenet forum can be considered a neural network, and we are all nodes in the HR brain. This is why people are constantly exclaiming how HR makes them smarter--because it does. The interaction between large numbers of individuals allows us to quickly solve problems that would be time-consuming, very difficult or impossible on our own. Besides problem solving, HR allows us ready real-time access and interaction with a variety of differing POVs, cultures and philosophies, that would be difficult for anybody except rare socially plugged-in individuals to achieve in RL.

Neural networks are basically any system with
* processing nodes (that's us in this example)
* a high degree of interconnection (provided by the internet and the HR forum)
* adaptive interaction between nodes (our lovely discussions/arguments)

I just found this site while doing research for this post. The "Global Brain" metaphor is exactly what I'm trying to express.
quote:
The "Global Brain" is a metaphor for the emerging collectively intelligent network formed by the people of this planet together with the computers, knowledge bases, and communication links that connect them together. This network is an immensely complex, self-organizing system that not only processes information, but increasingly can be seen to play the role of a brain: making decisions, solving problems, learning new connections and discovering new ideas. No individual, organization or computer is in control of this system: its knowledge and intelligence are distributed over all its components. They emerge from the collective interactions between all the human and machine subsystems. Such a system may be able to tackle current and emerging global problems that have eluded more traditional approaches, but at the same time it will create new technological and social challenges which are still difficult to imagine.

http://www.comdig.de/Conf/GB0/

This website ties consciousness in with neural networks:
quote:
Interaction, together with the presence of individual capacities for modelling, can be a source of new complexity in open systems. Structures, specializations, processes, and institutions emerge in a way that presumably would not be possible without interaction between individual members with social potentials. Communities of cells build organisms; communities of ants build complex anthills. In the human social context we are familiar with systems of government, justice, education, health care and so on which arise as emergent properties of individual social interactions. If we form a conceptual link between these creative activities of social systems and the adaptive behaviour of neural networks, then we begin to have a better understanding of emergent properties, including consciousness.
http://www.nurseminerva.co.uk/fractal_networks.htm

Links:
Good overview of social networks on the web, with links to scientific papers.:

http://www.sztaki.hu/conferences/sunbelt21/15.html

Defines artificial neural networks, I cribbed from it in my definition.
http://www.cs.stir.ac.uk/~lss/NNIntro/InvSlides.html#what

This site discusses a paper that examined the social network in the Marvel comics universe.
http://www.nature.com/news/2002/020218/pf/020218-17_pf.html

Mph, now I'm just rambling--I'll let another jatraquernode pick up the ball and run with it. [Big Grin]

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mothertree
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Thanks! I really liked your post. I don't know if my reply had adequately communicated that.

So yeah, last night I had this image in my head of a neuron sending out dendrites toward another neuron, and it seemed to be happening without consciousness.

I mean, human intelligence apparently can't be reduced to a computational matter. At least I adhere to this school of thought, I think it is the Strong A.I. school.

Oh, yeah. I wanted to talk about the king thing a bit. The thing about hatrack is that it probably couldn't be said to have a king. And I havent' read Leviathan, but I'm not sure about the king idea. Maybe it's an American view, but I guess there are ideals that are stronger than whoever we invest with them as our leader.

[ February 18, 2005, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: mothertree ]

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Kwea
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Thank God, these days.
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mothertree
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Maybe hatrack is a body where every cell believes it is the head. Actually, there seems to be a prevalent belief that "the other" are (undeservedly) running the place. Either the Mormons, or the Liberals, or the Conservatives, or the Atheists. So maybe it is more accurate to say we are all necks that think we should be heads.
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Morbo
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Thanks, I'm glad you liked it. [Kiss]

Consciousness is a higher-level attribute of brains, so ASFAIK dendrite growth cannot be directed consciously. I guess attention and learning can influence dendrite growth, encouraging certain paths while inhibiting others. But I don't know neurophysiology beyond the high school level.

quote:
I was thinking about whether consciousness is separate from our neural network, and how free will differs from our dendritic connections.
This is more complex. Lots of speculation on the topic, but nobody has a firm grasp on the causes of free will and consciousness, IMO. It's fun to wonder about, though. [Confused] [Wall Bash] [Dont Know] [Laugh] [Sleep]
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Morbo
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I didn't mean to imply that HR has a king, that was Hobbes idea (the original, not the Hobbes we know and love) which Bloom took as a jumping off point.

Bloom also has a lot to say about the pecking order and the struggle for supremacy in The Lucifer Principle, among individuals and societies. It's really a fabulous book, I learned a lot from it.

BTW, for the religious, the book has nothing to do with the devil, the title is just a catchy phrase Bloom uses for his complicated thesis about human evil.

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mothertree
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Does it have to do with the myth (and I'm using the word not to imply that I doubt it, but that it is an archetypal story) of Lucifer trying to seize God's glory? Because I think that is a great analogy for the nature of the hierarchy at Hatrack.

In that sense I'd say Hatrack maybe has an absent king, like King Richard in Robin Hood. (OSC is off fighting the crusades). But each poster sees herself or himself as Robin Hood and the "others" as Prince John and the Sherriff of Nottingham. Everyone thinks their own views are the honest reflection of OSC's philosophies while decrying the errors of the titular authorities.

[ February 18, 2005, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: mothertree ]

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Morbo
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Pooka, that's interesting, but I think that Bloom chose to put "Lucifer" in his title as a metaphor for evil. I forget any rationale beyond that.

Teilhard de Chardin (1881 - 1955) was way, way ahead of his time and to some extent predicted the global infomation network, which he thought of as the Noosphere:
quote:
To this end, he suggested that the Earth in its evolutionary unfolding, was growing a new organ of consciousness, called the noosphere. The noosphere is analogous on a planetary level to the evolution of the cerebral cortex in humans. The noosphere is a "planetary thinking network" -- an interlinked system of consciousness and information, a global net of self-awareness, instantaneous feedback, and planetary communication.
He also foresaw a coming covergence toward planetary self-consciousness or unity, which he called the Omega Point. This foreshadows the idea of the Vingean Singularity, though the latter is more about technology than consciousness, as well as James Lovelock's Gaia Hypothesis .

quote:
This convergence however, though it was predicted to occur through a global information network, was not a convergence of merely minds or bodies -- but of heart, a point that he made most fervently.[---from the website author]

"It is not our heads or our bodies which we must bring together, but our hearts. . . . Humanity. . . is building its composite brain beneath our eyes. May it not be that tomorrow, through the logical and biological deepening of the movement drawing it together, it will find its heart, without which the ultimate wholeness of its power of unification can never be achieved?"[--Teilhard de Chardin]

both quotes from: http://www.gaiamind.com/Teilhard.html

[ February 18, 2005, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]

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Morbo
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quote:
But each poster sees herself or himself as Robin Hood and the "others" as Prince John and the Sherriff of Nottingham. Everyone thinks their own views are the honest reflection of OSC's philosophies while decrying the errors of the titular authorities.
Hmmm, I don't see it exactly like this, though others might. That seems too confrontational, between "Robin Hood" (ouselves) and Prince John Lackland or the Sherriff(others on the forum).

Maybe more like Robin and Little John, fighting but becoming comrades.

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Annie
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I nominate Hobbes for King of Hatrack.

Only appropriate.

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Morbo
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Only if you change your screen name to Livia.
[Razz]

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Storm Saxon
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What a fascinating thread. [Smile]
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Morbo
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As far as the King or head of the HR neural network, there is none, as long as you consider KACard and OSC to be outside of it. And they have a pretty light touch when it comes to posting to and moderating the forum, so I think that's reasonable.

I would guess that HR is an isotropic (centerless), semi-hierarchical exogenously-clustered small-world neural net, but who knows? I have no way of estimating the diameter, sparseness or degree of clustering (see small-world link above for definitions) of the net, so it's just a guess.

Whether it is an ego-centered network I leave as an exercise for the student. [Wink] [Razz]

[ February 19, 2005, 02:24 AM: Message edited by: Morbo ]

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mothertree
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I like the isotropic idea. As I expressed in my third landmark, the lame-o "Why I'm grateful for Hatrack" threa, no one agrees with me all the time and no one disagrees with me all the time.

When I was younger one model of the consciousness I liked was a stack of discs, each divided in half containing dialectical pairs (liberal/conservative, mercy/judgement, love/hate etc.) and none of the splits between these opposites lined up exactly, so the whole could remain together.

I think an interesting refinement of this idea would be if the discs have differing diameters, and perhaps in a balanced person would resemble a sphere with the greatest discs at the center and the slightest discs on the ends. It would make a cool way to map the results of a personality test. There is apparenlty an applied intelligence theory that maps onto a 3-d grid of 1,000 units in a 10x10x10 cube. At least according to this telecourse I watched a few months back. Sorrowfully, I lack your diligence with the linkage.

I think if Hatrack is like one brain, it is certainly possible for some of us to be on the left and some on the right.

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Danzig
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I admit I have yet to read the links, but why should that stop me? Does Hatrack make us smarter, or just more knowledgeable? It does expose us (well, at least me) to different perspectives, but is that really an increase of intelligence?
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Morbo
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Good question, Danzig. I don't know, I cannot prove that HR makes you smarter. I think it has helped me keep abreast of current events better than the normal news media do. This often makes me appear smarter in conversations. Others on the forum have mentioned the same effect. HR has also exposed me to material I wouldn't have stumbled on myself.

And it has helped my debating skills. I argued my uncle the judge to a draw at Christmas dinner, even correcting his mistakes several times. The interactivity of forums has helped me focus my critical skills to see weak points and assumptions better than I ever have.

I did get a little link-happy on this thread. Here's one more good one I found last night while trying to define HR's net:
Introduction to Social Network Methods , an online text at the undergrad level written by a sociologist at UC/Riverside, Dr. Robert Hanneman. I've only glanced through but it seems ok.

[ February 19, 2005, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]

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