posted
I just need you to tell me what I can do about it.
This is a dialogue between me, my boss (female, we'll call her 03), and a co-worker (male, we'll call him 11, I think I mentioned him in a thread earlier as being a fundamentalist Christian who is against life insurance... O_o) My thoughts will be in parentheses. (this is mildly paraphrased due to my bad memory)
03: It's been busy today, huh? me: Yeah, I'm so stressed out, 03... I'm gonna cry... (I say this often, mostly when I'm feeling like I could have tears in my eyes. I've only once cried at work, and I didn't ) 03: Oh, just relax, honey, take a deep breath. 11: *sigh* Women. me: What do you mean? 11: Oh, you're so delicate... me: I don't appreciate this kind of talk. 11: Well, it's true, women are weaker than men. me: (more firmly) I don't appreciate this kind of talk. 11: (silences) 03: (pipes up) Well, women are just more likely to show those emotions. 11: Yeah. me: (What?) 03: And that can be a good thing. 11: Well, I mean, it's OK. You're good at things that we're not good at. me: (very coldly and very angrily) Yeah, like we're good at COOKING. 11: Er, yeah, well, and um, you're good at taking care of children, men can't do that. me: (WHAT?)
(At this point my silence was cold and angry, and the conversation just drifted away.)
I was so angry afterward that I made an angry livejournal post (locking it, because someone got fired at my school for posting an angry blog-message last week) and got a headache and the right side of my face broke out in an itchy rash for two hours. I really want to go to Human Resources and file a complaint, because I don't feel like this is appropriate at all. I looked in the policies of my school, and I believe I have grounds.
The problem is I'm not sure wheher I should inform my boss before or after. I like her and really respect her, but in this situation (she and 11 went on talking vaguely along those lines for a few moments longer) I feel like she'd be on his side. I don't want to lose my job, I like my job except for moments like this.
I'm upset and I need some advice. For one thing, could they fire me for this? For another thing, do you advise that I tell my boss before I file the complaint, or after?
posted
If I were in your shoes, I would talk to her first. Explain that you were made very angry and uncomfortable by the exchange, and why. If she's a good boss, then she'll listen to what you have to say, even if she doesn't agree.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
A complaint isn't going to do much to resolve the situation except to make your job more difficult as co-worker and boss will both know about and be upset with you.
Now that you know about dipstick's mindset, you know enough to avoid talking to him for any length of time.
Unless he makes a point to become harassing or offensive on his own initiative, at which point march into HR and let your manager know afterwards.
However, you might consider moving it up the chain first by talking to your manager and explaining your problems with the situation and see what her recommendation is - based on that, you will have more ground to advance the complaint over her head.
posted
It sounds to me like she was gently trying to diffuse the situation. May not have been the bravest thing, but she was probably just trying to keep the peace. Would the complaint be against her or him?
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
I have a small problem with you identifying this guy as only "fundamentalist Christian" instead of just saying 'jerk'
It looks to me like everyone stumbled over their tongue in this one. Some of what they said was inappropriate, but then they made it worse when they tried to clarify whatever the heck it was they meant.
I think just a good sit-down face to face discusssion with them after you've calmed down might help. Maybe they didn't even realize they were suffereing from foot-in-mouth so badly.
If you had been in a good mood, you might have normally have bantered back and forth with them on this -- but you were having a bad day, and took what they said in the worse possible way...
posted
I didn't mean to disparage him for being a fundamentalist christian. I recall making a post here earlier in which he and another non-christian co-worker had a conversation about the relative merits of Life Insurance and whether it was placing trust in man instead of God. That's a choice he makes for himself, not one he should push on other people. I was trying to give context, and apparently I failed.
My problem with him is not his religious beliefs or his beliefs at all. My problem is him taking every opportunity to spout these beliefs at inappropriate times, ie at work. If I were friends with him, I wouldn't mind so much, but he's a co-worker.
Edit: Also, I wasn't in a bad mood before this conversation started. It was just that he talked about it so smugly... It's upsetting me just thinking about it.
quote: If I were friends with him, I wouldn't mind so much, but he's a co-worker.
I don't understand that. I personally would be very annoyed if it were a friend (somebody who I liked and respected enough to choose as a friend), but it wouldn't bother me nearly as much if a co-worker, who I have no control over, did it.
Posts: 1002 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I agree with AntiCool. Friends you choose. Co-workers you tolerate out of necessity. That is the way of things.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I don't understand. Maybe I need to read it when I have more time. You say you weren't upset before the converstation. But this is the conversation in which you told your own boss you were so stressed out you could cry? I can't imagine telling a boss that. I'm sure this guy would never do that either.
And he does this all the time, right? Talk like that about women? Does it affect his work? Are you personally insulted/offended enough to make him lose his job or get some sort of black mark on his record? Realizing that doing it might backlash on you at work?
Posts: 1990 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I agree, there is no grounds for a complaint.
And, you actually were the one to introduce the whole discussion of emotions "I'm so stressed out I feel like I'm going to cry..."
And your supervisor responds by calling you honey?
You thik this guy was out of line and un-professional - well I think you and your supervisor were too.
Sorry, don't mean to get you down especially since you've had a rough day, but you say you often talk about wanting to cry at work - that's not really an indication of very professional behavior either.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I agree with Belle, though I do think the guy was insensitive and rude to actually say those things to your face.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Oh no question, the guy does sound like a jerk. But he wasn't the only exhibiting un-professionalism.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
If 11 was your supervisor, it would have been something to report. As it is, your boss sounds cool. Personally, I think if you report this, you'll end up being the problem.
My day at work was similar, but involved a different kind of jerky behavior. (the passive-agressive, petty politicky variety) I'll say it: Work bites! It's awful right now!
posted
I didn't mean I always talk about how I'm going to cry at work, I meant that I just say that all the time. And from my point of view, the way I said it was more joking... But I dunno...
And I certainly would be offended if my friend talked about women in such a way, but I was thinking more along the lines of religion. I wouldn't stop being friends with someone because their religious views conflicted with mine. I guess I'm just not being very clear today.
Anyway, based on the suggestions I got in this thread, I talked to my boss instead of HR. I had made this post in a fit of anger anyway, no sense getting someone fired over it, even if I don't like him personally. He's a good officer, and I guess that's all that matters... 03 said she would talk to him and that if it happened again, I should tell her.
I guess I was just disappointed that people still truly thought that way. I'm not usually aware of gender-based discrimination... Maybe I'm just not paying enough attention...
Posts: 4816 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I have nothing much to add except a suggestion about making it through the workday even in terrible jobs. Enjoy it all immensely. Even when things are stressful, just try to convince yourself that you are above the fray and are going to have as good a time as possible.
Often, the difference between a leader and and follower is that the leader has 5 minutes more tolerance for chaos than everyone else. They develop a reputation for serenity and not falling apart, when in reality, they've just been there enough times not to panic or break down.
This job may not matter much, but when you leave school and go on to pursue a career, the practice you'll have built up of staying calm when all others around you are panicking will make you much more appealing as a colleague and, eventually a boss.
It's not that you can't express feelings. Don't bury them. But learn to cope and learn to be calm despite it all. Take the approach that "this will get done regardless" and everyone around you will look up to you.
By the way, I'm sorry you had a crummy day. I think you are a terrific person and I think your co-worker is sort of a bozo. He's probably secretly in love with you, though, so don't cut him too deeply when you finally get around to talking to him about this!
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:I guess I was just disappointed that people still truly thought that way. I'm not usually aware of gender-based discrimination... Maybe I'm just not paying enough attention...
It it sickening that he said/believes those things. You know what he's like, and you can be aware of how he's treated.
I once was interviewed at a law firm by a senior partner who told me that he believed if I worked for them I would meet someone, get engaged, and move away. After another interview,I asked a VP at a very prestigious non-profit for feedback on my meeting with her. She responded by sicking the General Counsel's office on me, and accidentally copied me on her email, which was very clear about her opinions on me, and not too complementary.
People are insane, especially at work. I really like Bob Scopatz' five minute rule. I'm taking that one with me tomorrow.
quote:from my point of view, the way I said it was more joking... But I dunno...
And from his point of view, he may have been more joking too.
I really think even talking to your supervisor was taking this too far, but I'm not the one in your situation.
At the very least, the moment you said you didn't appreciate the type of talk, your supervisor should have stopped it. Her comment should have been "Okay, 11, cut it out. That wasn't appropriate."
But instead, she fed into it with the "Oh, women are more prone to show emotions...." talk.
The person most at fault in the whole thing, IMO, is the supervisor for letting the conversation continue.
Until she said that, you mentioned 11's response was silence - which means he had stopped the conversation after you reiterated you didn't appreciate it. The supervisor started it back up again.
I think reporting him to his superior was a little unfair to 11.
quote:11: Well, I mean, it's OK. You're good at things that we're not good at.
11: Er, yeah, well, and um, you're good at taking care of children, men can't do that.
If you recorded this accurately, it sounds as if he was trying to salvage it - trying to make up for causing some offense. Yeah, he didn't do it well, but I don't see very much malicious intent in these statements. You said you made a hostile, sarcastic remark (the one about cooking) so it looks like he was scrambling to try and not offend you. He may have done it badly, but I don't think he deserved to be reported for it.
Just my opinion, of course.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Ryuko, I think you're overreacting. The guy was being himself.
A long time ago I got really mad at myself for crying at the office. I was in a meeting with my male boss and was frustrated over something. Can't remember what now. My boss was a good guy, one of the best managers I've ever had. He, very kindly, said that it wasn't a big deal. That women were different than men, and tears just aren't that big a thing. He ignored it from then on, and eventually I got to where frustration didn't tend to make me cry so much. I was in my early 20s when I worked for him. Now I can't quite imagine crying in the office. Probably because of what he said that day.
Anyway, the guy was expressing a personal observation that IMO isn't entirely incorrect. Women are more likely to cry in the office than men. That doesn't mean it's true about you, of course.
Now if this had been about him patting you on the behind and asking you to get him some coffee while suggesting that you wear a shorter skirt the next day, then I'd say you had a right to say "I don't need you to tell me how very not okay this is." Shake it off.
The guy isn't your cup of tea, obviously. One of the best thing an employee can cultivate, IMO, is the ability to get along with people who make them crazy. That doesn't mean put up with things that are illegal (like sexual harrassment). It does mean when coworkers make a person mad, that person figures out a way to make it work anyway. Just my opinion anyway.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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At the very least, practice up on some pat observations to make in return . . . you know, the kind that denigrate men for being unfeeling jerks, etc.
Even though you would of course never say those things aloud, you'll feel much better as "he" spouts off about the superiority of men.
Hence, demonstrating your superiority.
/end sarcasm
Okay - really and for seriously.
I have worked a lot in male dominated fields in my young adult years. And it's true - guys tend to spew a few choice words and move on - really quickly - whereas gals tend to process. There are benefits and costs to each way - which is why it is nice to have a mixture of folks and temperaments. Learn to value your strengths - and your colleagues.
Is this easy? No.
In many ways, I preferred the roofing crews where I could burn off emotional steam, and if necessary tell the offending person to f*** off quite legitimately, and stil get my paycheck.
However, the price of the "professional" job that offers a FAR BETTER paycheck PLUS benefits, is that I learn tact, how to hold my tongue, and tolerance for those around me in ways I never, ever expected to . . .
*shrugs*
Some days are bad office days, Ryuko. Some days aren't - hang in there, and take it all with a grain of salt. I'm still working on this - but I share it with you.
posted
Just as an aside - I ran this by my mother, who has more than 25 years of experience in HR and who freelances as an independent investigator for cases of sexual harassment.
She said if she was confident this was reported accurately (which she would check by getting statements from the supervisor and the man in question) she did not see where there was any indication of harassment.
What she would advise was counseling the guy involved that anytime a co-worker says they don't appreciate a certain type of talk to stop immediately (she noted he did stop, but only after Ryuko reiterated it - she says he should know that he needs to stop the first time) and more importantly the counseling for the supervisor.
She agreed with me that the fault here lay mainly with the supervisor, for the reasons I stated. Her recommendation would be additional training in sexual harassment and proper behavior for managers for the supervisor, and a counseling session with the guy reminding him that whenever a co-worker says they aren't comfortable with a certain line of talk, he should stop immediately.
So that's the opinion of a professional, FWIW.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I'm still a little puzzled as to why you said you were going to cry if you weren't upset before the conversation happened. I know you've indicated that it's something you "just say". But what was your reason for saying it?
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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