posted
Maybe it's just that I'm an English major, and I just can't imagine ignoring grammar. To me, words go on paper correctly or not at all. You're talking to the man who puts commas and apostrophes in his text messages, for God's sake. But, a la 1984 and anyone who's put more than five minutes of thought into linguistics, I believe the way you speak and write is similar to the way you think. And I think the internet is the foul den mother of much, much idiocy.
I'm not sure why. Maybe technology has made us impatient. Maybe technology has attracted our attention away from books on basic human communication. Or maybe, as is much, much more likely, the internet gave a bunch of people who never had any interest in reading, writing, or engaging other members of the human race on any social level a need to type. And, let's face it, the majority of the internet is not used for intelligent purposes (I mean, Lord, I can't even count how many fetishes the thing has produced), and, as such, does not usually attract the most intelligent of people (Present company excluded, of course. I find this to be something like a haven. We're pilgrims in an unholy land, to quote Dr. Jones.)
Is this a rant? No. This is a documentary. Or a mockumentary. Whatever. This is an exploration of the deep, deep depths of madness the internet instills. Am I acting like a stuck up, priggish elitist? Almost certainly. But I'm bored, and have had bad experiences on many a forum recently. It seems like a lot of the time a rational discussion on a topic is like the Holy Grail, only harder to find. And, well, I figured it's time to take action, and by take action, I mean whine a whole lot. At least I'm honest about my pettiness.
#1: Steam of Consciousness Steve
Stream of Consciousness Steve suffers from "diarrhea of thought." I'd explain this analogy, because I can really run with this here, but I won't, and, no, I was not punning on "run" (I told you I could take this places). Steve does not understand the concept of "structuring" these magical things called "ideas," largely because he does not understand that "ideas" are individual thoughts taken out of a larger whole. It is either that, or he is completely unaware that the shift key exists, along with every other type of useful punctuation. Steve is such a master of the run-on-sentence that he would put James Joyce to shame. Not because his thoughts or imagery are better, but because Joyce would probably be ashamed to be of the same race. Observe.
quote: when i said feminist i was speaking of the steriotypical ones not the feminists who make valid arguments i was referring to someone who just wants to piss and moan about how women are so oppressed and men are so evil and only want to put women down. i would like to ad that i am all for equality of every kind whether it be racial gender based or so on and so forth however i hate when people like walkenandtalken go on thier false Tirades about things they are grossly uninformed about.
so sorry to offend dustygrimp it was not my intent.
Here's another priceless example:
quote: maybe it didnt come across it but he explains why he has to kill himself before it happens.either way he would've got killed.if he didnt do it himself then sen.rourke's pals would.he knew he wasnt gonna survive after killing jr./yellow bastard.he just said that everything would be alright to nacy because he didnt want to tell her the truth.
I don't think anyone could actually say that sentence the way I read it in my head without the use of serious amphetamines. They would also have to have lungs the size of indoor football stadiums, and only hummingbirds would be capable of listening to them. Hummingbirds with ADD.
#2: Full Volume Franky
Full Volume Franky believes that unless he types everything in words that are visible from space he will not be taken seriously. This comes from some type of insecurity so severe I can't even fathom it. Franky probably drives a truck that requires a fire ladder for entry and a speaker system worth more than the national debt.
Example:
quote: I MAY HAVE LOST THE FIGHT WITH BATMAN FOREVER OVER RETURNS BUT HELL THIS IS GANNA BE WAY COOLER THAN *beep* RETURNS WHO AGREES K THANKS
No, no, Franky. Thank you. You've shown us all how we take the ability to hear for granted, because your sentence has temporarily deafened us. If Franky learned better grammar and became more repetitious, he could easily acquire a job as a local racetrack announcer.
#3: Excited Elaine
Elaine suffers from the exact opposite problem of Stream of Consciousness Steve. Elaine is so full of pep, energy, and just general can-do spirit that there is no medium of communication that can express the heights of her eagerness. Lacking that, Elaine resorts to piling punctuation marks on her sentences, like my Uncle Ray does with the pump cheese at Fuddrucker's. Exclamation and question marks are choice meat, the bigger the better. She basically has leaned on the shift key and never intends to get off.
quote:Hello everyone!! ohayou!!!! Has anyone cosplayed to school... i soon hope to achieve to have a whole wardrobe to wear to school!! all appropriate of course..like Melfina type..costumes (decent lets leave it at that) i also thought that in the winter how warm and comfy whit mage..Yuna, rikku or paine seems!!! so yea!!! just curious if anyone cosplays to school????
The joy in this quote leaps off the page, grabs you by the throat, and jumps up and down on you, mostly on your genitals. Elaine is in depserate, desperate need of serious medication. Like the stuff that can put a horse out for a solid week.
#4. Pardon Me, Sir, But I Am a Gangsta
As we all know, being cool is inversely proportional to how rational you are. For example, everything that is cool nowadays is both hideous and expensive. So, we can easily understand that the way to type "cool" is to make up words, replace letters, and render your statements borderline unreadable.
quote: it duz its stupid without joker he wuz funny with jack nickelson or jim carrey i wont like with stupid baddys innit that r not funny they might as well put in that guy from jeepers creepers in
As you can see, the letter "s" turns into a "z", many vowels somehow turn into a "u", and the word "logic" is not found in this slang dictionary. Speaking this sentence aloud requires extensive hand gestures, many of them obscene.
#5: Morse Code Mark
Morse Code Mark has a rare disease that casues his brain to function only every other four seconds. His thoughts are like "strobe effects," coming in short, penetrating bursts.
quote: and then you woke up from your entertaining... but pathetic dream... you think you can get to me that easy? You forget about my Minions and my supporters.. If it were that easy to kill me, i wouldnt be wearing this belt with 8 lightsabres around it... you think YOU are the chosen one... i think not... I really dont need another lightsabre, so If i destroy you.. i will just take your midechloreans.. i will just leave the lightsabre on the ground next to your smashed body... for an Ewok or Gungan to pick up...
When I read this sentence, his voice is like that tired crippled boy from Malcolm in the Middle who can never catch his breath. Slow down there, Mark. Take a breather or two. You'll find the air feels good.
#6: I Am Actually, Verifiably Insane
I don't even know what to say about this one.
quote: I wenut to a pkarty 1nce and my parents werr all WTF? and i was OMG i can does what i wants! WTF, then my friens laughed at me, they always do. and my dad left me, why does everyone i come into contact with go running away? why cant i just sit down and enjoy life for once, a consuming darkness only to be cut open by the mercifull release which willl only arrive at death. Speaking to my soul as simple as writing on a webpage, i ache for such simplicity in life
Judging from the start of the post, a lot of that angst may come from just general miscommunication. The reason everyone who comes into contact with this person "goes running away" is that they're probably terrified when they hear things like "pkarty," "werr all WTF?" and "i can does what i wants." I can only hope this young person is very, very foreign. And maybe legally blind.
All I'm doing here is sticking to grammar. If I was shooting for content, obscenity, irrationality, offensiveness, and general ignorance, this post would probably be the longest one in the history of Hatrack. I've cut this one short as it is. And if you're wondering, yes, I have taken these from actual posts in actualy forums. Many are from imdb, the site that has recently generated the majority of my recent frustration. When the internet first came up, it was all about the exchange of ideas, the spread of knowledge and understanding, the flow of information... Instead, its dialogue has become (as Rorshach from "Watchmen" put it) "like an abbatoir full of retarded children." However, sifting through the dregs can produce hours and hours of amusement, and I hope I've amused at least a few of you, if only for a little while.
Thanks again for just being a good forum. I mean, you guys use VERBS. VERBS! They're like grammatical GOLD I tell you!
[ April 08, 2005, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: Book ]
Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
There was preliminary work done in prejudice prevention programs that showed that merely increasing a person's vocabulary actually decreased their levels of prejudice. I never really followed up on that, but it always interested me.
I've noticed that it's rare that people who post on the internet in annoying styles have anything to say that I'm interested in. I've taken to wondering if tgis is actually tied up in the way that they express themselves and if you could get them to write in a more complex, nuanced way, would the content increase in sophistication along with their presentation?
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posted
I know it's kinda cruel to take things out of context and laugh at them (like that last post - the emo girl), but at the same time, I can't tell you how many times I've just been stunned by the internet. And this is all from people gathering around the movies they like.
Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I have varying degrees of impatience with how people post. In chat/IRC, I understand that you are typing real-time and don't necessarily feel the need to go back and change one letter or whatever.
Posting on a forum, well, it's possible to go back and correct something that came out wrong - and I usually do (if I see the error).
But, on a Web page, there is hardly any excuse for some of the messed-up bad grammar and spelling that is out there, unless you are doing it on purpose. On a company Web site, there is no excuse at all. If you are selling a product or service, you need to use spell check.
*All uses of the word "you" in this post are strictly in the generic sense and are not aimed at any particular person, whether Hatracker or otherwise. YMMV.
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In chat, as long as it's understandable, it's fine. (I'd still like a spellcheck for myself, but not if it'll slow my chatting down.)
In posts, egregious errors bother me. The occasional typo is hard to avoid; but complete disregard for the rules of spelling, grammar, and usage makes for posts that I cannot decode.
But yeah, it's the websites that are full of such errors -- including sites owned by businesses hoping to attract customers! -- that amaze me.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I had to clean the Bulletin Board at Kroger today of all flyers older than one week.
This left only one poster, advertising a lost bulldog.
I was, however, strongly tempted to throw it away: it said "Lost Dog's".
I stared at it for a while, went inside the store, got a bottle of white-out, and fixed the error.
Meanwhile, my co-workers stared at me like I was insane.
Maybe it is because I spent close to ten minutes staring at it and deliberating over what to do with it...
Also, my personal pet peeve (that I find on tests all the time) runs something like this:
Find the fifth Taylor polynomial of sin(x)?
I feel like skipping the math and jotting down a short note: "I don't really feel like it, thank you. You ought to be more self confident -- it would really improve your tests."
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posted
But not too self-confident, because Find the fifth Taylor polynomial of sin(x)! would be confusing.
Posts: 6213 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
I do some of that, and if you don't like it......tough.
I don't type well, but I am learning, and doing fairly well I think, overall. I do a lot better looking at the keys still, but I won't get any better if I keep doing that so I try occasionally to do it the "right way", and that produces mistakes. Most of the time I go back and spell check it, but I also type on Hatrack late at night, and sometimes I don't remember to spell check it before I hit reply.
A lot of my typos are reversed letters, and if I notice them I will go back and correct them....but I like ellipses, and to be honest I find that most of us do speak like that....with pauses here and there. It represents how I really think and speak, at least sometimes, when I am still forming the thoughts.
I would not do that if I wanted to turn a paper in, or if it was a writing sample, but here, on the Internet, I don't really care if some people don't like it.
I am sure if I cared enough to look I would find plenty about you and your posts to nitpick about as well.
posted
You didn't, I didn't think you were talking about me, really. I HAVE gotten some grief about it fro others, but that is fine...they can just learn to deal....
posted
I get really frustrated sometimes when I'm in a chat room or doing instant messaging. My typing and spelling abilities are extremely retarded.
I usually compose my messages in a word processor with a selling and grammar checker because if I don't my message comes out looking something like this:
Most of the time I'm ok but once ina awhile my finger will actualy trip overthem selves and preactialy crash and burtm resulting in almost illigible writ. Amd sometinels it totlay illegalbe.
Posts: 527 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote: You're talking to the man who puts commas and apostrophes in his text messages, for God's sake.
So? I do that too! I don't think it's such a big deal to write like that in IM, except when you're dead-tired and sick, and capitalise the second letter of a 2-letter word (at the beginnign of the sentence):
quote: so whats he building A Web site. about what ME.
So yet, occasional things like that are acceptable, but it's IM, so I won't get too fussy about it.
When I was four-five, before I went to school, my father let me send e-mails to my aunt and uncle. Obviously, those "few lines" I wrote had "I" capitalised; names of people, months, days, and places - and sentences, at that - begin with uppercase, and those sentences end with a full-stop, an exclamation mark - not marks - and occasionally with a question mark too.
I didn't do it because I thought that it's important to write that, and I didn't have impeccable intra-sentence punctuation, but I did my best.
Why? Not because I needed to, or because it's important, or because my father writes like that. I wrote properly because I would seem like an idiot if I didn't!
That's how I practiced, and how I write today. Don't seem lik an idiot, seem like a normal, educated person. Grammar may not be perfect, but I do my best, and the same in Hebrew or Latin.
Yes, I think it's pathetic that AOL-using 12-year olds are writing "like dat", but it's just something to get over. I started writing, not typing, so I was never lazy to do that. Spell-checkers? OK, only after you reviewed it yourself. But read some books - for God's sake - and "lrn hau 2 rite".
quote: I wenut to a pkarty 1nce and my parents werr all WTF? and i was OMG i can does what i wants!
How about - "Once I went to a party, and though my parents were not fascinated by the idea - as they thought it was eccentric - I still went; my primary thought was that hey, I can now be a little more librated from my parents' restrain!"
Now, that's only grammar and spelling, forget format (paragraphs) and content. But, at least a well-looking writing might persuade another to read it.
Confusion between it's and its (its shouldn't exist, by the way) is acceptable; forgtting a comma here and there, or using a semi-colon instead of a colon is OK too; but, for crying out loud! Write like a human being, not a monkey.
I agree with you on 99% percent of your thread, Book. Thank you for writing something I would be a little hesitant to write - because it might've come out wrong.
I'm sorry if this post is slightly incoherent, but I now realised I'm really sick.
posted
Yeah, I made sure not to focus on the little things, because I don't have a problem with the little things. Commas are usually okay, but sometimes I look at something I wrote and feel a ghost comma just floating around out there, needing to get plugged into the sentence somehow... But I just... don't know
And then there are always the "Usual Suspects" of common words I frequently misspell. For example, "Silhouette:" every time I write this word, I'm never sure where the "h" goes.
"Committee:" I'm always fairly sure this has two "t's" in it, but looking at all those repetitious letters gives me the jibblies.
I always think there's an "e" after the "judge" in "judgment," but there's not.
"misogynist:" watch as I guess which one's a "y" and which one's an "i."
And there's more. Lots more. But I can't think of any right now.
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Committee has three sets of 2 adjacent letters. Remember that.
"Judgement", in fact, has an "e" - but Americans decided to drop it for some reason or another. Like "management". So we, Britts and spinoffs, use the "e".
"Misogynist" I have not yet come across...
Posts: 2978 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Misogynist is easy if you just remember the word's etymology--misein to hate (in Greek) and gyne woman (also in Greek, naturally enough). You see root forms of both of these words in English quite a bit really.
posted
You know Book, I have to agree with you on this one. As an aspiring writer myself, I feel a slight pang of annoyance each time I converse with many of my online friends. Apparently, all of them are in such a rush to present the speed of an avid typist that they all have a tendency to make frequent grammatical error. I myself find that in attempting to type something without using the backspace button results in an error-ridden paragraph of near illegibility.
Here's an example, in which I won't use the backspace button once.
Hi, nmy mnae is karl finch, and I really like to type, though I'm not goo good at it, I thinkg that typing fast makes me look really smart, especially in front of people like my father, who types at least 80 wrods per minute. you can see of course, that I make several errors, and only if I'm watching th scree to I evade making them. I see them, and It's quote and effort to not use the bakspace buttong, and i'm sorry if you can't read any of this, aor if several ofmy words are . . . wel, stupid.
Ok, now that that is over, I want to go correct everything. But you can see what typing fast creates errors . . .
Posts: 19 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:"Judgement", in fact, has an "e" - but Americans decided to drop it for some reason or another.
Actually, this is an alternation in British spelling, too. Quite often, American spelling is based off of less common though still acceptable British variants.
And actually, acknowledgment is usually spelled without an e, even in Britain.
————
Book, I don't think the internet's to blame for poor writing. I think that writing is simply a talent that many people do not have, just like drawing is a talent that many people do not have.
But now we have a literate society where everyone learns how to write. Most people have to take art classes in school, too, but this doesn't make them artists. I think that most people who can't write well are like people who can't draw well; sometimes it's a lack of education or training that causes the deficiency, but often it's just a talent they don't have.
So on the one hand, I get irritated with people who write like those examples, but on the other hand, I realize that writing well is something that some people just can't do, just like I will never be able to dance well.
posted
At least Elaine spelled "Ohayou" correctly as if it had been translated letter for letter from the kana.
I once thought of doing a webcomic called OMGWTFSTFUN00B but decided that a> I can't draw and b> too many videogame webcomics.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Oh, and Katarain, it's "All your base are belong to us." Jeez. Get it right!
[Wink]
Woops! Just one base! I'll get it right now! [Smile]
Figures I'd "correct" it somewhat... that's what my english teacher training does for me. Makes me unable to make a decent joke.
And LOLOLOLOLOL bothers me even more than LOL alone. I always think.. okay, that means: Laugh out loud out loud out loud out loud out loud??? That makes no sense!! What was wrong with HAHAHAHA or HEHEHEHE? Dorks.
posted
Let me just jump in here and respond to this, please.
quote: Book, I don't think the internet's to blame for poor writing. I think that writing is simply a talent that many people do not have, just like drawing is a talent that many people do not have.
But now we have a literate society where everyone learns how to write. Most people have to take art classes in school, too, but this doesn't make them artists. I think that most people who can't write well are like people who can't draw well; sometimes it's a lack of education or training that causes the deficiency, but often it's just a talent they don't have.
So on the one hand, I get irritated with people who write like those examples, but on the other hand, I realize that writing well is something that some people just can't do, just like I will never be able to dance well.
I always figured the reason that people are unable to express a coherent thought in writing is because they are unable to form a coherent thought in their heads. Really, you can ignore most mechanical rules and still be able to at least be understood.
That's the snarky side of me... I would suggest that an alternative reason is simply that people are too lazy to go back, reread what they wrote, and fix their errors. For instance, I've made several errors while typing this out (stupid errors, too), and I've simply gone back and fixed them. Yes, I know. I probably missed some. So I'll check again--but I'll still probably miss some. But at least I'm understandable. (I hope.)
As for writing talent, I think that writing well is a talent that not all people have. But thinking and expressing that thought with written words shouldn't be so terribly hard. I'm not an artist, but I can sketch out a house, a person, or a dog and have them be immediately recognizable. There would be hardly a shred of artistic talent involved.
quote:So on the one hand, I get irritated with people who write like those examples, but on the other hand, I realize that writing well is something that some people just can't do, just like I will never be able to dance well.
I will never be able to dance well, but partly because of my career choice (acting,) I have taken classes and practiced enough to get to the point of at least knowing the choreography and not looking like a fool. I won't ever be a Fred Astaire, or get a part in a professional version of West Side Story (except maybe Doc), but I can move in step with the ensemble.
Likewise, there are people who will never be able to express their ideas in writing at the same level that others come by naturally. However, they can make a concious effort to learn the rules so they don't look like a fool. Most of these internet posters simply don't believe the rules apply to them, which is about as ridiculous as me saying no one will notice if I'm making up my own choreography.
Posts: 786 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I just thought of another reason that people type how they do on the Internet. I propose that there's this sense of community that comes with mastering Leet speak and chatting abbreviations. I honestly think that some people just like fitting in with the rest of their chattin' crowd.
This reminds me of a comment I got from an undergrad college student when one of my stories was critiqued. This girl had previously turned in a story that was so full of grammatical errors and typos that it was honestly painful to read--not to mention a story that was so boring I wanted to kill myself rather than finish it. (I'm not a fan of high school/teenage angst.) Anyway, after reading my story, she suggested during my story's critique that I had too many big words, and that my writing sounded too much like a graduate student's. (Everyone knew I was a graduate student.) The teacher (and others) looked at her like she was insane. Oh, and the big word she cited was uncharacteristically, I think. (Wow, that is a big word.)
Okay... I had a point for including that thought. Um... (ellipses!) Nope, I can't think of any good reason. I guess I just wanted to share.
posted
You know, one way you can help those of us that don't live it every day is to send an email to our accounts telling us, in context, what grammatical errors we've made.
Speaking for myself, I wouldn't mind that at all. Just don't do it in the thread because, for various reasons, that is not nearly as helpful.
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posted
Stormy, of course we're not talking about you. I, for one, am not bothered at all with a few errors in a post. It's when there are so many errors that the post is no longer understandable without considerable effort on my part that I begin to be annoyed.
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I wanted to let you know that your post of 3/28/05 about feminism was filled with grammatical errors. As a service, I will outline each of them for you.
1. Start sentences with capital letters, which means when, i, however, and so on should be capitalized.
2. Always capitalize the nominative first-person singular pronoun (I).
3. Please use commas in the following places: (a) after when i said feminist; (b) before not the feminists; (c) between every kind and whether; (d)
posted
Apparently making fun of people is only OK on this board if your targets aren't as intelligent or don't place the same importance on spelling and grammar as you do.
It's actually kind of funny.
The bullied nerds have found their haven where they can be the bullies.
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posted
What a fantastic thread! I’ve been LOLOLOLOLOLOLOING all over the place.
This forum has some of the best writing and grammar I've ever seen. In fact, my post count is so low because posting a comment here is pretty scary. I just can’t measure up to the intellectual giants who frequent Hatrack.
I've noticed that movie and music boards don't necessarily attract a lot of people with good writing skills. But any author/book/series of books message boards seem to attract semi-coherent typists. Proof that reading--and being obsessed with--books and/or authors makes you smahhht.
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quote:I always figured the reason that people are unable to express a coherent thought in writing is because they are unable to form a coherent thought in their heads. Really, you can ignore most mechanical rules and still be able to at least be understood.
That's not really true. Thinking and writing are not the same process, and strength in one area does not imply strength in the other (or at least, being able to form coherent thoughts does not necessarily lead to being able to write coherently).
quote:That's the snarky side of me... I would suggest that an alternative reason is simply that people are too lazy to go back, reread what they wrote, and fix their errors. For instance, I've made several errors while typing this out (stupid errors, too), and I've simply gone back and fixed them. Yes, I know. I probably missed some. So I'll check again--but I'll still probably miss some. But at least I'm understandable. (I hope.)
I'm sure that for some people, it's an issue of laziness. Actually, I'd say that it's really a matter of not caring, especially for people who write in internet lingo in order to fit in. Keep in mind that not everybody knows the rules like you do.
quote:As for writing talent, I think that writing well is a talent that not all people have. But thinking and expressing that thought with written words shouldn't be so terribly hard. I'm not an artist, but I can sketch out a house, a person, or a dog and have them be immediately recognizable. There would be hardly a shred of artistic talent involved.
I think writing is a far more complicated and intricate process than drawing. And anyway, all those objects are things that we recognize iconically. If you draw a stick figure, everyone will know it's a person. But how do you draw a stick figure of an idea and make sure that everybody instantly recognize it?
Anyway, my point is that writing well is not simply a matter of caring or having enough time to check yourself for errors. It's a matter of knowing (not just memorizing) a vast number of rules and guidelines and knowing when to apply them. Some people never learn the rules well enough to really understand them, and some people simply can't understand them—and really, can you blame them?
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quote:And actually, acknowledgment is usually spelled without an e, even in Britain.
Googlefight!
Well, I checked with both American and British dictionaries (namely the British dictionary, the OED), and they both listed acknowledgment as the usual spelling. So I guess most people aren't using spell-check.
[ April 09, 2005, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Personally, I find it rather rude of people when they send me an email without capitalization, limited punctuation, and purposeful misspelling. Am I really not worth your time to type "How are you?" instead of "how r u?"
It's really such a compliment to me when someone IMs me using complete sentences with correct capitalization and punctuation.
Posts: 486 | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: Anyway, my point is that writing well is not simply a matter of caring or having enough time to check yourself for errors. It's a matter of knowing (not just memorizing) a vast number of rules and guidelines and knowing when to apply them. Some people never learn the rules well enough to really understand them, and some people simply can't understand them—and really, can you blame them?
I think it's far more likely that the reason is that very few people need to write exactly as the good book lays it out to be understood. All those d00ds and whatnot understand each other perfectly well for what they want to say, and in normal communication, if someone doesn't understand you, they can always ask you for clarification. I know many people (me included) who can write decently but are often just lazy writers because we have better things to do than make sure every little detail is perfect for every post and everything we say.
This isn't to say that I don't think proper grammar is important. As I indicated, I do. It's just that I think it's a mistake to assume that just because people don't, they can't or, more importantly, that they need to.
A lot of this kind of impacts to some degree on Irami's thread, a thread that is essentially about standards for the English language. When it comes right down to it, 'white' idiomatic English is being concentrated on, while 'black' English is being ignored (not to mention redneck English, Spanglish, etc.).
The great thing, the obvious thing, is that language is mutable. In twenty years, if it catches on, n00b could be a part of English standard. 'Ain't' could be used in doctoral theses. Why not? Why should someone take the time and effort to learn a version of English that very few people they know speak or *need* to speak? In language, does not majority rule?
posted
I feel that if you really know and understand the rules of correct grammar, you internalize them and don't make so many mistakes that people post threads about it.
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posted
While minor grammar things might annoy me, like leaving the -ly off of adverbs, that's not what really bothers me about Internet speech. (Okay, so it doesn't bother me so much that I can't sleep at night. I don't really care THAT much.)
What really bothers me is the weird spellings and the strange abbreviations. The weird spellings especially. I don't know how to "spell" it, but I'm referring to Leet speak, where they use numbers instead of letters. And also I don't like the r instead of are, u instead of you, i instead of I thing. Those issues have nothing to do with grammar, and they're the most basic of spelling words.
Not to mention the fact that even high school students have such horrible writing skills already. I believe the Internet makes it worse with confusions between lite and light, site and sight, wuz and was.
And in response to this:
quote: When it comes right down to it, 'white' idiomatic English is being concentrated on, while 'black' English is being ignored (not to mention redneck English, Spanglish, etc.).
I am a great defender of varying dialects of English. Depending on our background, region, family, etc., we're all going to speak differently. This is true of every English-speaking country, and every region where they speak a creole or other English-based language. There is no one dialect that is superior to others, but there is Standard English that everyone should learn. This is what I always told my students: your dialects, no matter who you are, are not inferior. They have a grammar all their own and are just as rich as "American Standard English." But in order to be understood by other dialects fully in formal speech and writing, you need to learn American Standard English. And that's what we'll do in this class. Next time I'm in a classroom, I'll probably make the comparison to a foreign language class--because that's what it is. And yes, the argument can be made that most people who speak different dialects can communicate just fine, but it's not true for everyone. I tried to make a distinction between informal speech and formal speech and writing.
And just so no one thinks that I don't think that expanding a spoken vocabulary is not important, I encouraged lots of reading and we had vocabulary words every day.
Because "its" means belonging to "it". And since a belonging is spelt with an apostrophe-s (or s-apostrophe), it should be "it's", just like "his" should be "he's", the should be "him's", "she's", and "hers" need be "her's", by the same token - and add "their's" to the list.
Strictly speaking, that is.
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In the Gemarrah you get writing that's even tougher and less coherent - but heavily edited to be so (taking up minimal space). You can have three-four pages without puncuation - to eliminate commentary. Syntax has been minimized and abbreviations are abundant. It pisses me off, by the way.
ogxjicyruapbt
Oh, gee, ex-Jay! I see... Why are you a pee-bee? [Would you like some] tea?
JH
[ April 09, 2005, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posts: 2978 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:That's not really true. Thinking and writing are not the same process, and strength in one area does not imply strength in the other (or at least, being able to form coherent thoughts does not necessarily lead to being able to write coherently).
I understand that knowing a word and knowing how to spell it, for example, are not the same thing. And I'm okay with that, if you really don't know how to spell a word, as long as I can figure out what you mean.
However.
What I want, and what I think just about everybody is really asking for, is that you (the generic you, of course) write down the words that you would have said to me, if I was sitting in front of you. That's it. That's all I ask. Most people can communicate just fine that way - so why do they suddenly forget how to talk when they have to write it down instead?
Writing coherently and writing formally are two different things. I truly and honestly cannot comprehend why anyone would think that some people are simply not capable of writing coherently, if they are capable of speaking coherently.
Posts: 3214 | Registered: Apr 2002
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