FacebookTwitter
Hatrack River Forum   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Ask Creepy Third Cousin Bok: Gas-Electric Hybrids

   
Author Topic: Ask Creepy Third Cousin Bok: Gas-Electric Hybrids
Bokonon
Member
Member # 480

 - posted      Profile for Bokonon           Edit/Delete Post 
Hey, if OSC and Hobbes can do it...

I am a hybrid car owner; a 2004 metallic silver-blue CVT Honda Civic Hybrid, to be exact. I've also followed the hybrid market closely the last 3-4 years (even longer, now that I think of it, I was already reading about it in '99, when I saw my first Insight while working at IBM...). This is YOUR thread to ask me anything about what it's like to operate one of these vehicle, day-to-day.

-Bok

[ April 16, 2005, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Bokonon ]

Posts: 7021 | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
twinky
Member
Member # 693

 - posted      Profile for twinky   Email twinky         Edit/Delete Post 
How much did it cost in comparison to a regular Civic?
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lost Ashes
Member
Member # 6745

 - posted      Profile for Lost Ashes   Email Lost Ashes         Edit/Delete Post 
How are the repairs/maintenance for the vehicle? Is it hard to find a place to do basic maintenance outside of the dealership?

If you need an inspection or an oil change, can you just pop in to the local Jiffy Lube or do you have to take it to a dealer?

Posts: 472 | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bokonon
Member
Member # 480

 - posted      Profile for Bokonon           Edit/Delete Post 
There wasn't much haggling to be had... In the Boston area, lots of dealerships only had (at the time, last October) 1 or 2 hybrids, if any. This was for the Civic, Insight, or Prius. We paid ~$20.5k, extended the bumper-to-bumper warranty to 7 years, and added lojack. It came, with 5% sales tax to about $23k. Basically both the Prius and Civic Hybrid were going for MSRP, with little wiggle room. In fact, according to arstechnica.com, Prius owners are eBaying their less than a year old cars for MORE than the MSRP!

The Civic Hybrid uses the same trim line as the Civic EX (minus moon roof). The EX with front and side air bags, and automatic (but not CVT) transmission goes for about $18.5k (not including tax, title, and destination). I figure it's about 2-3k difference (looking at the Honda site, it looks like 1500-2000). You likely can haggle more on the EX than the Hybrid though, increasing the cost difference.

-Bok

Posts: 7021 | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ketchupqueen
Member
Member # 6877

 - posted      Profile for ketchupqueen   Email ketchupqueen         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
In fact, according to arstechnica.com, Prius owners are eBaying their less than a year old cars for MORE than the MSRP!

That would be because there's a 6 month waiting list for a Prius right now at most dealers.

Did you test-drive a Prius? Why did you choose the Honda?

Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bokonon
Member
Member # 480

 - posted      Profile for Bokonon           Edit/Delete Post 
Maintenance:

Funny you ask. I'm only at 8500 miles, so I've only had the complimentary oil change at the dealership. I know that many Hybrid owners have done their own oil changes, without much difficulty (the trick is to find the 0-20W oil... Some have reported synthetic brands have increased mileage). I'm sure that the 3rd-party mechanic choices are slim, but I know the guys at Good News in Cambridge (the Car Talk guys' shop) are interested in checking out the car, when we leave warranty. I think few people are out of warranty yet (except on the Insights), and I bet most early adopters did like we did and got the extended warranty, just in case (The hybrid components, like the battery pack, are covered for 7-8 years).

However, at 8000 miles, the CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) snapped a chain. A one in a million mechanical failure*, having nothing to do with the fancy hybrid stuff. The dealership (not our original, one closer to where we live) replaced the whole transmission, free of charge.

-Bok

*There have been intermittent rumors of a possible defect in the CVT Civic Hybrids. We're talking 3-4 out of the ~100,000 sold since inception. The dealerships are replacing them with no questions asked, which is raising some eyebrows. The manual transmission civic hybrids have not reported any issues, so it may be Honda's CVT engineering. Then again there are multiple stories of people putting 30-40k miles on their CVTs without a hitch. * shrug *

Posts: 7021 | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bokonon
Member
Member # 480

 - posted      Profile for Bokonon           Edit/Delete Post 
A mutual friend of my fiancee and I bought a decked out Prius (all the fixings, including nav system, moslty because it was available). This was one of the new, larger-sized Priuses. My fiancee had a real problem with the ergonomics; she felt clausterphobic sitting in the front (the newer Pruis [the old Prius looks kinda liek an echo] has a more sharply sloping front-windshield, I believe). She also didn't like the look that much. I liked the folding back seat, larger size, and better mileage (the Civic Hybrid can't fold the back seat, since that's where the battery pack is), but since this was going to be our only car between, us, it was imperative we got a car we could both enjoy.

-Bok

Posts: 7021 | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Glenn Arnold
Member
Member # 3192

 - posted      Profile for Glenn Arnold   Email Glenn Arnold         Edit/Delete Post 
I could throw my input on the Prius here, since I'm on my second one. (The first got totalled by a Mercedes).

I bought both of them used, from dealerships. I paid about $16k for the first (with 28k miles), and $15K for the second (with 35k miles). Both are 2001 model year. I have 47k on the second one now.

I change my own oil; there's nothing special there, but it did take me awhile to get used to buying 5w-30. I've also had the wheels off to look at the brakes. Again, nothing looks abnormal. The Air filter is right on top, so it's really easy to change. I should go check it, it's probably time.

As for tune-ups, and other service, they really packed the engine under the hood. Without a lift I wouldn't even try to change anything I can't reach. But Toyotas are notoriously reliable, and major service isn't due until about 100K iirc, so I'm not too worried.

The only problem I've had is that the one I have right now won't open the defroster vents until the cabin temperature reaches ~32 deg F. At first I thought this might be a feature, to keep from blowing cold air on the windsheild and fogging it up, but it's not, and it can be pretty annoying, especially when it's really cold. It seems to be somewhere in the logic controls, so it's probably about $1500 to fix, so I'm just living with it.

Another thing I wish was different is that the fuel economy calculation is off. It consistently tells me my mileage is about 3mpg higher than it really is. I'd like to be able to enter my actual fuel input, and have the system recalibrate itself.

Other than that, I love the car. Most of the time I get about 43 mpg real mileage, although when it was around 0 deg F in January (and gas has 10% ethanol in it) I only got 34 mpg. The hybrid system definitely doesn't like extreme cold. The highest I've gotten was 49 mpg. I also like the fact that the engine shuts off when you come to a stop. I always imagine what an advantage that would be in a traffic jam. If you don't accelerate hard you can get it up to 30 mph before the engine comes on.

Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bokonon
Member
Member # 480

 - posted      Profile for Bokonon           Edit/Delete Post 
I have similar under-reporting (but usually at most 1 MPG), and when it was freaking cold here, my mileage dropped to 33-34.

-Bok

Posts: 7021 | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ElJay
Member
Member # 6358

 - posted      Profile for ElJay           Edit/Delete Post 
*blink* I hadn't heard about the cold issue before. Do they warn you about it? What about places that get significantly colder... are the hybrids not recommended for sub-zero temperatures for any length of time?
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bokonon
Member
Member # 480

 - posted      Profile for Bokonon           Edit/Delete Post 
They are just smaller engines, which in turn are more sensitive to mileage differences. Also, their high MPG makes it more moticeable. There's nothing for them to "warn" you about [EDIT: compared to conventional vehicles].

If you average 40MPG, and drop 20%, you go to 32 MPG, a huge perceived difference. If another vehicle that only gets 20MPG drops the same 20%, due to the same conditions, it will only drop to 16MPG, which seems "less bad", even though, in percentages, it's the same.

-Bok

[ April 16, 2005, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: Bokonon ]

Posts: 7021 | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ElJay
Member
Member # 6358

 - posted      Profile for ElJay           Edit/Delete Post 
Ah, okay. Thanks. [Smile]
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bokonon
Member
Member # 480

 - posted      Profile for Bokonon           Edit/Delete Post 
I'll add that we had some really cold weather here (sub-zero morning and teen evening temps) and I only had the car not start clean once. That one time I just pressed on the gas a bit, and the car turned over fine.

It started easier in the cold than my Volvo (which WAS 20 years old and all, granted).

-Bok

Posts: 7021 | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Glenn Arnold
Member
Member # 3192

 - posted      Profile for Glenn Arnold   Email Glenn Arnold         Edit/Delete Post 
The prius has a visual display showing when the engine is engaged to the wheels or the electric motor (or both), and whether the motor is pushing the wheels, or generating electricity.

You can see quite clearly that until the engine fully warms up, it spends very little time with the wheels driven by the electric motor. I'm not sure if that's because the battery has to warm up to function properly, or what. Anyway, the upshot is that if you drive for short hops in cold weather, the engine never really warms up, and the engine not only does all the driving, it also spends a lot of time charging the batteries. It may actually get worse mileage than it would without the hybrid system.

On the other hand, if you drive a long distance in cold weather, the mileage is not nearly so bad. Think I got about 39 mpg on a long trip at about the same time I was getting 34mpg around town. The only real loss seemed to be from the ethanol.

Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Glenn Arnold
Member
Member # 3192

 - posted      Profile for Glenn Arnold   Email Glenn Arnold         Edit/Delete Post 
Starting the prius is very different from starting any other car. You turn the key - and nothing happens. If you wait, the engine starts itself. But for that matter (and this is the part you get used to) if you release the key, the engine starts itself anyway. I usually just turn the key and release it. By the time I've got my seatbelt on the car is running.

This all happens in about a second, the delay is more like a "feeling" than a sense that you're waiting for something. Also, when the engine starts, it just starts. You never hear a cranking sound like you do with a regular starter motor. It does the same thing when you hit the accelerator pedal when you've been stopped at a stop light. The engine is off, then as you start to move the engine is running again. It's very seemless.

Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bokonon
Member
Member # 480

 - posted      Profile for Bokonon           Edit/Delete Post 
For those wondering about why Glenn and I experience slightly different things, the Prius and HCH (Honda Civic Hybrid) have two different types of hybrid systems. The Prius, is "more" hybrid than the HCH. The HCH gets most of it's efficiency from a small ICE, using the electric motor for acceleration (a main advantage of electric motors is that full power is provided at low rpms, while gas engines don't peak until higher RPMs, so when you need power NOW, the electric does a better job than gas), one of the costliest actions a car can make. Thus, the electric motor makes acceleration more efficient. The Prius relies more on the motor in general use.

The one feature of a hybrid that should be on all cars is the Auto-Stop (when the car turns off at stops). You don't realize how much gas you waste stopped in traffic until you've expererienced NOT wasting it [Smile]

So The HCH starts up with the engine running (due to the electric motor, the start is really smooth, no holding the key for the engien to start), but the engien is so quite that when our car broke down due to the transmission, a guy helping us asked us to turn on the car, and then asked again, not realizing it was on!

-Bok

Posts: 7021 | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Glenn Arnold
Member
Member # 3192

 - posted      Profile for Glenn Arnold   Email Glenn Arnold         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
The one feature of a hybrid that should be on all cars is the Auto-Stop (when the car turns off at stops). You don't realize how much gas you waste stopped in traffic until you've expererienced NOT wasting it
Yeah, I thought of that too. I'm assuming that although the Honda system always starts the engine when the car starts to move, that when the car is at full stop the electric motor at least begins to creep the car forward as the ICE starts up. Otherwise it seems like there would be a noticeable pause before the car starts to move.

I wonder if it would be possible to implement an auto stop feature without the electric motor boost, or if people would scream about slow starts.

Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dagonee
Member
Member # 5818

 - posted      Profile for Dagonee           Edit/Delete Post 
It might not save gas to have an auto-turnoff on a conventional car.

I remember (vaguely) from drivers' ed that the car needs to idle for over a minute before the gas cost of starting it up is overcome.

Is that still true? If so, then it's probably a bad idea.

Thanks for all the cool info on the hybrids. I'll be driving my current car into the ground, but I'll look into hybrids when I need a new one.

Dagonee

Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Vadon
Member
Member # 4561

 - posted      Profile for Vadon           Edit/Delete Post 
With the better miles per gallon, it would seem that it would eventually pay for itself in the money you save from gas. However, I have heard that you must get a full battery change at like... five years. So, with the full battery change costs, do those negate the money saved from gas?

(I myself would consider buying a hybrid... (When I can drive that is...))

Posts: 1831 | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Glenn Arnold
Member
Member # 3192

 - posted      Profile for Glenn Arnold   Email Glenn Arnold         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Is that still true? If so, then it's probably a bad idea.
I've heard that too, but I doubt it was ever true. Bear in mind I was an auto technician in a past life. It might be true for a cold start on a cold day where it takes a long time for the choke to turn off, but it sure ain't true with a fuel injected car, especially if it's fully warmed up. (I can give examples of fuel pressure drop tests)

What was true is that repeatedly starting the car is hard on the starter motor. The hybrids have definitely proven that doesn't have to be true.

(only sort of related) My son ran out of gas last year in our pickup truck and decided to make it into a hybrid. He left the truck in gear and cranked the starter motor to pull it off the road. Well, after I brought some gas to get him started again, I sent him to the gas station to fill it up (his friend then confided to me that he'd been driving on empty for three days, because he didn't like filling it up).

Then I get a phone call from the gas station: The truck won't start. The starter motor was burned out. I guess it gave one more start after he pulled it off the road, and then gave up the ghost. That 30 seconds of pulling the truck off the road cost my son the price of a new starter, plus I made him install it.

Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Glenn Arnold
Member
Member # 3192

 - posted      Profile for Glenn Arnold   Email Glenn Arnold         Edit/Delete Post 
The prius battery is warranted for 10 years from date of first purchase.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bokonon
Member
Member # 480

 - posted      Profile for Bokonon           Edit/Delete Post 
The HCH battery pack is warrantied 8 years, so if it runs down before then, it's free to replace... I haven't heard of too many replacements yet, except for people in the high mileage club... Supposedly, the batteries actually become a bit more efficient over time, up to a point.

Glenn: Actually, the ICE starts up. The trick is that it starts when you let go of the brake (Or put the car into gear if using the manual transmission), not when you hit the acclerator, so there is no delay. Of course, when you hit the accelerator, the electric motor kicks in, so you get both.

AutoStop on conventional cars is a bit more problematic than it first appears, because I think all hybrids use the electric motor to start by default. Essentially, at start, the electric motor is just an oversized starter, hence smooth and quick starts. If you're going to do that to a regular car, you might as well make it a hybrid.

One note on the HCH. It gains amazing efficiency by shutting down cylinders when the power isn't needed (flat highway driving, hills), rather than going pure electric as the Prius does.

Posts: 7021 | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Glenn Arnold
Member
Member # 3192

 - posted      Profile for Glenn Arnold   Email Glenn Arnold         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
One note on the HCH. It gains amazing efficiency by shutting down cylinders when the power isn't needed (flat highway driving, hills)
Cadillac did that in the early 1980's, with an engine called the 8/6/4. Unfortunately, it tended to catch fire. Hopefully, Honda did a better job of it.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dagonee
Member
Member # 5818

 - posted      Profile for Dagonee           Edit/Delete Post 
What about space - do these cars have as much cabin and trunk space as a normal car the same size? Or do the batteries take up lots of room?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Glenn Arnold
Member
Member # 3192

 - posted      Profile for Glenn Arnold   Email Glenn Arnold         Edit/Delete Post 
It takes up some room. My trunk looks like it has a row of four car batteries right behind the back seat. (covered with upholstery, so it doesn't look like a battery)
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bokonon
Member
Member # 480

 - posted      Profile for Bokonon           Edit/Delete Post 
The HCH is exactly like a Civic EX... Minus folding back seats (that's where the battery pack is). The new, larger Prius has folding back seats, I believe (and it's a hatchback).

Shutting down cylinders: I think Honda calls it their i-VTEC technology. Search for info if you'd like.

-Bok

Posts: 7021 | Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2