posted
Since this forum has people interested in Science Fiction and of various faiths, this question seems perfect for here.
Your church has sent you to a cross-denominational "People of Faith" convention in Trenton New Jersey (The Council of Trenton). The President is flying in to speak to the various leaders, and you get to be in the room as second assistant flunky to the main representative of your faith.
That's when the President drops the bomb shell.
"We have been contacted by beings from another planet. The lab guys assure me this is no hoax. We don't know what they want except to talk with us. Where do aliens fit in with God, Jesus and the Bible? Are these demons? Jesus was the son of God and Man, where does that put these beings? Should I assume they are demons or angels?"
Please note, this is not an attack on Christianity or any religion. Its more an attack on Science Fiction, which has too often calmly announced, "the aliens arrived" and don't mention how Earths religions would react to that. Even Superman is from another planet. Would he be accepted as the great hero in churches that are literal to the bible?
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posted
*thinks* I swear I just read/saw something that addressed this. What was it? Was it the Galileo biography? No, because it talked about aliens specifically. Some thread on Hatrack?
Anyway, LDS would have no problem.
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quote: Should I assume they are demons or angels?"
Neither.
What makes us think we are so great that we are so sure we are the ONLY things ever created by God? It is a very human view to think that we are the center of the Universe, instead of only one very small part of many more things beyond our understanding.
My 2 cents. Farmgirl
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posted
I think that it would lead us to the point where we had to extend our definition of what has a soul. We might push God back up a bit and demote Jesus to "God's Human Representative" Leaving the Spirit as Universal.
posted
Well, the Lord having created them as he did ourselves, he probably created them in his own image as well.
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So then you think that all beings in the universe possessing a certain level of intelligence will be humanoid? Or godoid, rather?
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While He had a design and plan when He created us, and that plan included what Jesus had to do for us; that doesn't mean there can't be some other, different thing, going on somewhere else.
posted
Which Katie are you asking? I always wonder what part of my brain should answer hypothetical questions, since so often the discussion is shut down if the Mormon Katie is involved.
Secular Katie doesn't believe intelligent aliens exist at all.
Whole, non-skeptical Katie thinks that our existence took such an unbelievable series of events that the only way it would be duplicated is if Heavenly Father made it happen. In that case, yes, aliens would also be in God's image.
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posted
I am being very limited here not to confuse issues.
We have not "seen" the aliens, nor do we know their agenda. They have only communicated with us, maybe via Seti.
This way I am not stacking the deck. I don't want to get into "God's Image" territory yet.
And some religious conservatives may have trouble believing the aliens are anything but lies since,
A)This adds a few layers of confusion to "Revelations".
B)Other worlds are not listed in the things God created in Genesis.
C)God gave man dominion over every living thing that moves on the earth. These aliens can not be equals, but must be animals to be dominated by us.
You can see where a major crisis of faith would erupt, creating some fanatical fringe conspiracy groups that would be dangerous for everyone.
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Terry Pratchett. Where I read about aliens and its effects on world's religions - it has to be, that's the only think I've been reading lately that includes both religion and aliens.
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posted
I don't personally agree with your C) point Dan. If these things aren't FROM Earth, then what makes you think we should have dominion over them?
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Well, I believe everything God does he does to his own glory, and if it glorified him to create life in other places, then I don't see a reason why not. It's not for me to say what God can and cannot do. Nothing in scripture explicitly states we are the only life to be found anywhere, though it's easy to imply that based on the fact that the creation of earth and man appear to serve the purpose of carrying out God's redemptive plan.
There would be all kinds of theological questions raised - are these creatures fallen? If so, how are they redeemed, if at all?
It would be interesting, to be sure. Lots of debate would ensue. But would it completely capsize and destroy the faith? I don't *think* so. It's such a "what-if" proposition, there's no real way to say what would truly happen.
In my personal view, I think we're alone. I would be very, very surprised to find out we're not. But, like Farmgirl said, I don't put anything past God.
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posted
I don't know. Which Katie answers questions instead of repeating them?
quote: Well, the Lord having created them as he did ourselves, he probably created them in his own image as well.
quote: Does that mean they would look like us, or they would look like Him as much as we do?
quote: Whole, non-skeptical Katie thinks that our existence took such an unbelievable series of events that the only way it would be duplicated is if Heavenly Father made it happen. In that case, yes, aliens would also be in God's image.
So, what is God's image? Human? Biped? Air breathing?
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posted
I think religions would adapt pretty quickly. I think that they tend to be flexible when faced with stark reality, like the world being spherical and not the center of the universe. As soon as there is no longer any reasonable possibility of denial in the face of evidence, even the most conservative religion will find a way to reconcile its dogma with observed fact. The only real argument I see is as to when that point has been reached, but having actual aliens on hand, along with their technology, would be pretty hard to argue with.
One of my favorite editorial cartoonists, Calvin Grondahl, had this series of cartoons about Mormon missionaries in space, proselytizing the aliens. I still remember the one where a couple of elders are arguing with a "little green man" about the nature of God:
"He has a body of flesh and bone!"
"No, he has a body of slime and scales!"
"Flesh and bone!"
"Slime and scales!"
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quote:A)This adds a few layers of confusion to "Revelations".
B)Other worlds are not listed in the things God created in Genesis.
C)God gave man dominion over every living thing that moves on the earth. These aliens can not be equals, but must be animals to be dominated by us.
I don't agree that any of the above are sticking points. There are plenty of confusing things in Revelation as it is, Genesis is an account of the creation of this world and not the whole universe, and the aliens would quite clearly not be moving on the earth and so wouldn't have anything to do with our dominion.
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posted
What if aliens came and we found out that they never got kicked out of their Garden of Eden?
"You mean you actually atethe apple? He told you not to! So much for finding intelligent life of this planet."
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quote:So, what is God's image? Human? Biped? Air breathing?
Hmm...for me, the question is not what are the essential qualities that make us appear in God's image, since God has been seen and we look like him, but rather if God would also make other aliens in his image.
I think so, because I think God made us look like him because it was the best possible course of action, and I think that if he created other worlds, he'd want the best for them as well, but I don't know.
In small moments, I sometimes question the design of knees. I don't like the design - so many people have problems with them and they can be twisted so easily. I sort of hope that knees can be improved on. But that's all.
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quote:In small moments, I sometimes question the design of knees. I don't like the design - so many people have problems with them and they can be twisted so easily. I sort of hope that knees can be improved on.
I have those exact quesions fairly frequently. "Why did go design us this way? Wouldn't this be a much better design? Posts: 751 | Registered: Apr 2005
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What about our inability to regenerate our spinal chords when they get broken? Seems like a bigger design flaw than the knee if you ask me.
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That's true. <speculative Katie> I wonder if that's just intentional design flaws that go along with being mortal? We are still in his image, but a cheaply-made, garage version done from photographs?
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In reality, He probably outsourced our construction to a 'lower cost geography' where high quality knees and regenerative spinal cords are replaced with substandard parts.
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Bev: Oh, that totally supports my theory. "You get the Barbie Jaguar go-cart now. You'll get the real Jaguar after you learn to handle the go-cart."
posted
Significant LDS scripture. from the Book of Moses:
quote:And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. And the a first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many. But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.
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I assume that aliens that hadn't eaten the apple wouldn't be able to distinguish good from evil, right? Given that I'd think that their reaction to the fact that we'd eaten the apple would be "Huh".
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(In response to the assertions that any intelligent creature would be humanoid, took me a while to pin down the sources)
You kidding me?
Just look at our own Earth and you can see paths of evolution that may some day end up with beings of equal inteligence to us, and are definately NOT humanoid. Dolphins to name just one example. They are already very intelligent (and self aware) if not quite up to our level. Given more time it is entirely possible that they could end up with our level of intelligence. If you want a more extensive and highly scientific source on this, look here. (Its a pdf).
Intelligence is not nearly as limited to we humans on Earth as we like to think. We just happen to be the first who got our hands on this kind of tool using/language speaking intelligence and ran with it.
posted
Yeah, but dolphins don't have souls. They're more like God's pets than his children. Obviously, we'd have dominion over non-humanoid aliens of any intelligence. They'd just be creatures.
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quote: Yeah, but dolphins don't have souls. They're more like God's pets than his children. Obviously, we'd have dominion over non-humanoid aliens of any intelligence. They'd just be creatures.
The dolphins would have souls in Buddhist dogma. But then again, so do rocks. Posts: 410 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Yeah, but dolphins don't have souls. They're more like God's pets than his children. Obviously, we'd have dominion over non-humanoid aliens of any intelligence. They'd just be creatures.
So what gives you the right to decide what does and does not have a soul? And can you tell me what critiera you are using in your decision of what has a soul and what doesn't, what basis for evalutation? What is required of a creature for it to have a soul in your eyes? Simply that it be human?
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posted
Dudes, I just want to be a character in Dan's book.
Because if they came to Earth and turned out to not be in his image, they'd fall under Dan's C).
quote: So what gives you the right to decide what does and does not have a soul? And can you tell me what critiera you are using in your decision of what has a soul and what doesn't, what basis for evalutation? What is required of a creature for it to have a soul in your eyes? Simply that it be human?
I only seek to accept what the Lord says to me through my pastor. It would be vanity to question any such distinctions as He has laid out.
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I believe that everything living has a soul, according to LDS theology:
quote:Doctrine and Covenants 77:2 ...the spirit of man in the likeness of his person, as also the spirit of the beast, and every other creature which God has created.
I can't find it now, but there is suggestion that the earth itself possesses a spirit of sorts with some sort of intelligence.
There are also many scriptures in the Pearl of Great Price that explain that everything was created spiritually before it was created physically. This seems to suggest that all matter has a spiritual counterpart. Though honestly, I have no idea what it really means. That is just one possibility.
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I am not mocking the broad catagory of people who believe scripture. I am mocking a very specific subset of a very specif philosophy 101 course, who said, among other things, that doing the assignment (finding flaws in Descarte's arguements for the existance of God) was impossible as it would lead to eternal damnation.
This is very character specific.
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