posted
Ok, I’ve tried not to post much politically for a while since I seem to get in trouble. But this one seems like one that everyone should agree on. So….. what do you think: Border Volunteers Not So Welcomed in Texas
When I think of a vigilante I think of something out of comic books like Spider Man or Batman. Neighborhood watches are organized all across the country and you never hear any complaints there. I don’t get in the least why there are any problems with the Minutemen since they are essentially doing the same thing as a neighborhood watch. Plus they’ve saved lives by being there when illegals needed medical attention in the desert.
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I live in Texas, I'm face to face with the immigration issue on a daily basis, and I'm really curious to see what the jatraqueros have to say on this...
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posted
Why I find the term "illegals" offensive? Because it's dehumanizing, that's why. That article brings up some good points about the TX border being different, and I can think of several others.
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posted
I rarely agreed with you political posts, but that isn't what use to bother me, Jay. As long as we can all (and I do mean all) refrain from name calling, why not discuss politics once and a while.
There are a few things wrong with this. First of all, according to the police there, even in AZ they were more a hindrance than a help, at least according to a lot of sources. Most of the call they made were false leads, made just because the people looked (or were) Hispanic.That wasted the polices time and manpower.
Also, a lot of them were armed, and that by definition makes them dangerous. One man assaulted a truck of illegal immigrants with a loaded gun, forcing them to lie face down while he threatened to shoot them. Not that they had a right to be there, but the gunman had no right to assault them, or order them to do anything.
What is next? A shooting or three, with the only people left alive at the scene the militia?
Also, a lot of land is private, and they would be trespassing in order to bring their own style of "law" to the border.
It is the same as any other unsupervised militia . . . not a good thing even though they MIGHT be right about a few points.
That isn't even beginning to go into the well founded racist charges.
posted
I was interested to note (and this might not be immediately apparent to people not from the area) that the founder of the Texas branch is from Arlington-- in the Dallas area. Arlington is a long way from the Mexico border. I wonder why this particular woman is so gung-ho about this particular cause.
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posted
The guy who stopped the truck load was not a minuteman. He was a guy just back from Iraq and made a citizens arrest after they charged at him. Still a lot out on that one.
I don’t understand why illegal is offensive? There is a legal way to come here. If you don’t do that, you are here illegally.
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posted
Distance from the border isn't as relevant as one might think. The people who cross the border head to the large cities for work, and Dallas certainly qualifies. Texas is all but overrun with illegal immigrants. They even support the economy to a ceratin degree. They certainly support Mexico's economy. I was LIVID when Vicente Fox has the nerve to bitch about us attempting to better police our borders. I just wish there was a better LEGAL way to allow these people to come here an work if they want to. We also have to deal with the burden of medical care and education (among other social services) that the taxpayers cover, and the criminal element that is virtually impossible to track.
Let me take a breather and compose my thoughts on this a little better...
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posted
Can you use the full term? Illegal immigrant refers to a person. Calling them "illegals" dehumanizes them.
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posted
But that isn't the total sum of who you are, really. Lots of people break the law here on a daily basis, but we don't call them illegals, right?
It is usually a fill in for a racial term. Pretending otherwise doesn't make it any less a truth.
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posted
But that makes them "illegal immigrants" and not "illegals". Its the difference between "Japanese citizens" and "Japs". Or "Gernam citizens" to "Jerrys". Its applying a new name to the group of people, in order to dehumanize them. Usually so you don't feel bad about doing something bad to them.
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quote:Texas is all but overrun with illegal immigrants.
No, it's really not. That is a gross overstatement.
well how about I qualify that - the large cities certainly are. Houston is. I live here and I see it every day. When there was an INS scare, the street corners were empty for a week and NO construction got done becuase there wasn't a pool of illegal immigrant labor for the contractors to use. School attendance dropped by almost 35% becuase parents kept their kids home for fear of being deported. I don't even know where to start about what's wrong with that... But when the city is so affected, then yes, I think overrun is an accurate term.
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posted
Depends what you define as "overrun". Certianly in California illegal immigration was/is placing a huge burden on the already overburdened public health system there. If immigrants are/were legal, generally speaking they don't add stress to the public health system because the minimum care is available through an employer.
There was a study out recently, that I need to look up, I think I heard about it on NPR. Anyway it basically said the amount of benefit that the average illegal immigrant contributed to the country's economy, didn't actually offset the costs of the extra drain on public resourses.
But because all of the costs are public, and get off loaded as government responsibilities, it isn't obvious to any business or individual hiring an illegal immigrant, since it is a short term gain for them.
One of the biases as I recall, in this study was the fact that it dinged the illegal immigrant for sending money home to family, which wasn't spent in the US. I don't think that they actually measured the benefit to the other country's economy and how that net impact helped or hurt the US.
posted
I really don’t see much of a difference between illegals and illegal immigrants. I really don’t think they should have rights in our country other then a ride to the border. They’re here illegally. I guess maybe if instead of dumping them over the border we put them in jail for a bit and reinstated chain gangs then instead of cheap labor we could have free labor. Cool.
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posted
That is why you shouldn't discuss politics.
I must have forgotten.
Some things ALL people have a right to, regardless of where they are from or how they got here.
I agree that they should not have all the rights we have, and that they should be deported, but other than that I can't see why I bothered posting here.
And I can't think of a reason why I should continue to do so.
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posted
Thank you for demonstrating our point. You call them "illegals", we say that's dehumanizing, and then you go and show us that you don't actually think of them as humans.
posted
I live in Pennsylvania and I am concerned about illegal immigration, or really people crossing the border freely in general whether they are immigrants or terrorists or criminals going into hiding (and to be clear I do also mean leaving the US too in all those cases such as a criminal escaping to hide out in Mexico), so I don't think that how far you live from the border has much to do with it. We do need to secure our borders better yet also come up with a way for foreigners to come work here and contribute to US taxes just like everyone else does. Paying taxes to me would eliminate a lot of the accusations of 'paying' for illegal immigrants. The article talks a lot about what might happen, but who knows what could actually happen. CA went well because they actual members of the group stuck to what they said they would do, mostly non-interference and reporting
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posted
Wow - I'm surprised to see that this is such a hot topic. I figured that few people outside of the border states even gave a hoot about the issue. Appears I was wrong...
I gotta scoot - I'll check back in after lunch to see what else y'all have to say
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posted
Ok, of course they have their rights to be treated humanly. Just like Geneva conventions stuff. But schooling for kids, heath care, jobs, and any other government provided service shouldn’t be. Why? That certainly doesn’t encourage people to come here the right way. Why not put people who come here illegally in jail? It would discourage more people from coming illegally and encourage legal immigration.
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posted
Techincally they are mostly illegal immigrants. Illegal because they did not come in legally, but also immigrants because they are people who come to a country where they were not born in order to settle there. So they are, and thank you Dictionary.com, correctly described as illegal immigrants. I definitely see the point Kwea and others raised about that
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quote:Thank you for demonstrating our point. You call them "illegals", we say that's dehumanizing, and then you go and show us that you don't actually think of them as humans.
quote:But schooling for kids, heath care, jobs, and any other government provided service shouldn’t be. Why?
Because we're America. We've societal riches aplenty, and we can use them to lift other people out of poverty, and give them, at least, a healthier, longer life.
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posted
I really fail to see how putting someone who is committing a crime in jail and getting something out of a criminals jail time as dehumanizing. Better then them staying in their lifting weights so they can beat cops more easily.
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quote:Texas is all but overrun with illegal immigrants.
No, it's really not. That is a gross overstatement.
well how about I qualify that - the large cities certainly are. Houston is. I live here and I see it every day. When there was an INS scare, the street corners were empty for a week and NO construction got done becuase there wasn't a pool of illegal immigrant labor for the contractors to use. School attendance dropped by almost 35% becuase parents kept their kids home for fear of being deported. I don't even know where to start about what's wrong with that... But when the city is so affected, then yes, I think overrun is an accurate term.
How do you know how many of them are here illegally? I know plenty of legal immigrants who are afraid of INS and if they heard about an INS scare, they'd go into hiding too. It's still a gross overstatement.
quote:One of the biases as I recall, in this study was the fact that it dinged the illegal immigrant for sending money home to family, which wasn't spent in the US. I don't think that they actually measured the benefit to the other country's economy and how that net impact helped or hurt the US.
I'm planning to write my thesis about the money that immigrants, particularly Mexicans, send back to their home country. Last year, remittances to Mexico topped $17 billion (considering how much is sent informally, the real number is probably higher) and became the country's number one source of foreign revenue. Despite that, most of the effect that remittances have is on local economies. There are many who believe that remittances can help the receiving countries and just as many who believe that remittances are making countries more dependent on the US. I honestly can't tell you how remittances have effected the US. It's not my specific area of interest and as far as I know, no one has studied that.
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quote:But schooling for kids, heath care, jobs, and any other government provided service shouldn’t be. Why?
Because we're America. We've societal riches aplenty, and we can use them to lift other people out of poverty, and give them, at least, a healthier, longer life.
Fine. That's great and I agree, but there is a legal way to come here! Crime should not be tolerated. Why should we tolerate breaking of the law.
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That is so irrelevant to what we're saying. The term is dehumanizing, not jail time. And it's mostly deportation, anyway.
As for basic emergency health care and prenatal care, and preventative care for children, everyone should have access to that. Period.
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posted
I haven’t used the term it was said it was offensive either. I said was I didn’t get how it was. And then talked about jail for them, but that somehow dehumanized them. I understand it’s mostly deportation (if we’re lucky), but I think jail would be a better deterrent. I know you don’t have time to ask for your cards in an emergency, that’s understandable, but the rest shouldn’t be paid for. Everyone else has to pay for that somehow. Even if that’s welfare. Come here legally and get one welfare then.
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And your attitude is really not healthy. You realize that if someone doesn't get prenatal care, has their child here, their child is born unhealthy, their child is a natural-born citizen and has a right to be on public assistance for the rest of their life, right? Do you know how much that costs?
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posted
Here's a question, what is someone supposed to do when they are no jobs in their community and their family is barely making it by? They've already tried moving to a city but life there's not much better (if at all better). The process of emigrating legally can take years. And meanwhile, the family slowly starves because no one can find a job.
I understand that coming to the US illegally is a crime. What I don't understand is what other choice the immigrants are supposed to have? Sure, the governments of emigration countries need to institute better policies to take care of their citizens, but that's not helping the migrants now.
Honestly, the only way I can see of to slow/prevent migration is a pipe dream. Help the migrant-sending countries develop to a point where the citizens don't need to go elsewhere to survive. Realistically, it's never gonna happen, but it's not going to stop me from trying.
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quote:I guess maybe if instead of dumping them over the border we put them in jail for a bit and reinstated chain gangs then instead of cheap labor we could have free labor. Cool.
First you use the term "dumping them over the border", which pretty clearly shows you think of them as objects, not people.
Then you state that a great solution is to use them as slaves. Then you call your slavery idea "cool".
Nope, no dehumanizing here.
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posted
Yes, I know that about children born here. Which if we controlled the borders better this wouldn’t happen as often. And also would happen less often if we deported more often. Sure come here legally, raise your children here, make a better life for your family, enjoy the American dream. But do it legally. We have to have respect for the law and we really have to know who is coming into our country. I’m not sure why my attitude isn’t healthy. I think we’d have a healthier, safer, fairer America if everyone came her the right way instead of trying to cheat the system.
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posted
Jay, if the system wasn't so screwed up and xenophobic, perhaps we wouldn't have so many trying to "cheat" it.
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posted
I just didn't want to imply there was an inappropriate relationship going on. You know, now that my husband's registered. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
What other choice the immigrants are supposed to have? Fill out the proper forms and come here the right way. Ok, when I say chain gangs I mean prisons doing work. There are all kinds of things they could be doing helping society then just sitting in cells. And sure, call this slave labor if you like, I’d rather think of it as repayment to society for crimes against society. If that’s dehumanizing so be it. I guess I’d hope jail would make you feel a bit less of a member of society. Maybe that’ll help them work to better themselves.
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posted
Hey Jay, can I call you an illegal, because I'm sure at some point in the recent past (and likely repeatedly) you have broken the law by travelling faster than the posted speed limit in a car?
Stupid illegals, causing insurance and health care prices to go up, and endangering others on the road, especially helpless children. A fair amount of them are druggies/alcoholics. Frickin parasites. And the children! Someone think of them... Please!
posted
Bok, I still don’t agree with you on the terms, but I’m not going to use it here. Thought that was an honest compromise. Sorry that doesn’t make you happy.
Work release programs are one thing. I think they should all have to do something. Weather it’s breaking up rocks, help pick up trash, or some other labor. There’s all kinds of things society can have done and no reason why they shouldn’t be working 10 hours a day 6 days a week.
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posted
Well, Jay, for someone who loves your civil and human rights as much as you seem to, you're spectacularly willing to ignore those of others just because they have comitted one illegal act.
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posted
Whose rights am I ignoring? Prisoners? Because I think we should make them work? Illegal Immigrants? Because I think they should have to fill out a little paper work and come here the right way? Sure one illegal act can put you in jail. But this is why we post the rules ahead of time so people know if you do this you can get this. I guess I’m confused on what you’re meaning. I’m not anti-immigrant. Come one come all. Just register on the way in.
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posted
Jay, sometimes I wonder if you are being deliberately obtuse, have been totally and completely reprogrammed by the ultra-right wing nutjobs or are just unintelligent.
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posted
Sigh….. name calling makes it so hard to discuss. Why not just say what you think and try and convince me of your side. What is so ultra right wing or unintelligent here?
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posted
Oh puh-leaze, PrimalCurve, quit trying to derail the thread into personality pounding. An inability or unwillingness to provide Jay with answers/rebuttals does not give one the right to indulge in name-calling.
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posted
I would think (hope!) that even most rabid anti-immigration right wing conservatives would think that putting illegal immigrants in prison for 60 hour a week slave labor is going too far.
Edit: and as to whether this idea is "unintelligent"... I think you can figure that out on your own...
BUT
I still don't think Glynn should attack you personally like that. It does very little for the discussion (though one could argue sometimes rational discourse doesn't accomplish much either).
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quote: And sure, call this slave labor if you like, I’d rather think of it as repayment to society for crimes against society. If that’s dehumanizing so be it.
I'd just like to echo Risuena's post:
quote: Here's a question, what is someone supposed to do when they are no jobs in their community and their family is barely making it by? They've already tried moving to a city but life there's not much better (if at all better). The process of emigrating legally can take years. And meanwhile, the family slowly starves because no one can find a job.
I dont think the immigrants see themselvs as performing crimes against society.
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posted
Having prisoners work isn’t very ultra right wing. 60 seemed like a reasonable number for people you need to keep busy and deter others from committing crimes. But hey, if this is unintelligent so be it. I bet it would work. This how hard so many people try to get out of a days work! Can you imagine. No way, I don’t want to go to jail, they’ll make me work!!!! Bet crime rates would plummet. Sure, jailing illegal immigrants is harsh. I’m not saying put them away for life. But a day or week in jail would certainly help deter others from not doing it legally. Of course increasing terms for repeat offenders. Yes, the whole starving family’s thing is a strong argument. I imagine the terrorists had their sad stories they told to come here too. But there has to be rules. There has to be law. And once made, the law has to be obeyed.
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puh-leaze, PrimalCurve, quit trying to derail the thread into personality pounding. 
