posted
who and what are they? All i know is a friend of mine answers the door naked to scare them off. (accidentally answered the door naked when his family was there )
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I know some and they are very sincere and well-meaning. The door-to-door thing is because it is a huge mitzvah in their faith to make sure that they "witness" to others, therefore saving as many souls as possible from eternal damnation. Not too shabby a goal, really.
I refuse to be proselytized to, however, so I politely explain that as an Observant Jew, I believe that G'd has made a covenant with the Jewish People, and that we are trying to keep our end of it, and that we trust that He is keeping His end of it.
I also tell them that any house that they go to that has a Mezuzah on the doorframe has Jews living inside, and if they have the Mezuzah up, it is a fair indication that they are not appropriate subjects for conversion.
So, keep your shirt on! (and your pants, too)
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Actually, Tante, my parents are Catholic, and have a Mezuzah on the doorframe. My mother really identifies strongly with the "sons and daughters of Abraham" thing (more the daughters, I would guess). I still wouldn't view them as likely to convert to another faith, though, so I guess that reasoning holds pretty well.
But yeah, Sid, your opening question (and thread title punctuation) could be a little more respectful.
posted
I've had a mix of experiences with Jehovah's Witnesses.
Some very bad, negative experience...and some very good, peaceful experiences.
As with many other things it depends on the person more than on the denomination.
As an LDS I'm obviously not going to be too receptive to Pastor Russell's interpretation of scripture, but there's no reason to be rude about explaining why.
Those that actually discussed with me our different beliefs impressed me.
Those that tried to Bible bash or recite anti-Mormon propaganda got the door shut.
While it is not a problem for a non-Jew to have a mezuzah, it is also unusual. It is a pretty good indication that "Jews dwell here" (kind of like having a fish on the back of your car indicates "Christians on Board").
And, from the point of view of not only Jews, but also many of the Christian denominations, Jews are NOT appropriate subjects for proselytizing.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
From the point of the view of the proselytizer, all people not members of XYZ are appropriate subjects. Can't hurt to ask - if they don't want to listen, they can say no.
Added: In trying to convince the proselytizers that Jews are inappropriate subjects, isn't that trying to convert them to your way of thinking? That's fine - I just thought it was funny.
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: I have a Gefilte Fish on the back of my van, Morrison.
at Tante Shvester. Now if someone would just name their gym Morrison, all would be right with the world. Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: What do the little turtles mean?
If you mean the little 'Jesus Fish' with feet, that's not a turtle, it's a Fish with legs, signifying evolution.
In a nutshell, here is what Jehovah's Wintesses believe:
JW's believe that Jehovah is God, the most high of all the universe, and Jesus is his Son. Many people acknowledge this whether JW or not. Also, they believe that Jehovah will bring an end to this wicked system of things (our current state with sin and death, and Satan the Devil) and return humanity to it's original purpose, which was to live forever in a paradisaic Earth, as perfect humans worshipping the only True God, which again is Jehovah.
Posts: 317 | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: The door-to-door thing is because it is a huge mitzvah in their faith to make sure that they "witness" to others, therefore saving as many souls as possible from eternal damnation. Not too shabby a goal, really.
Actually it's a command given to people by Jesus to preach the news to the Earth. That's why they do it.
Also, they don't try to save souls from eternal damnation, because Witnesses do not believe in hell the way the rest of the world does. It would be sort of pointless to save someone from something that does not exist (to JW's I mean). What they are trying to save people 'from' is everlasting death, with no hope of a resurrection. That's not a torturous thing, or anything. It's just simple death, again with no chance of resurrection.
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posted
"from the point of view of...many of the Christian denominations, Jews are NOT appropriate subjects for proselytizing."
Nope, Jews are totally fair game for conversion. For those particular denominations, Israelites are off limits cuz "Rapture prophecy" says they must be around to be massacred at Armegeddon.
No Israel/Israelis, no Rapture. And no gloating at the Hell on Earth for those who don't believe in the "christian"Apocalypse.
quote: Also, they don't try to save souls from eternal damnation... What they are trying to save people 'from' is everlasting death, with no hope of a resurrection.
Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding, and thanks for the clarification.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Jews are totally fair game for conversion. For those particualar sects, Israelites are off limits cuz "Rapture prophecy" says they hafta be around to be massacred at Armegeddon.
No Israel/Israelis, no Rapture, and no gloating at the Hell on Earth for those who don't believe in the "christian"Apocalypse.
Huh. I'm not sure how to answer this. Are you trying to offend me? Because I have tried to be nothing but respectful to everyone on this list.
posted
No, not meaning any offense whatsoever, Tante Shvester. Even Christans are offended by the Rapturists' belief that all nonRapturists will experience Hell on Earth.
Merely pointing out that those sects which consider conversion of Israelis to be off limits do not extend that ban to Jews living in the rest of the world. And that their support of Israel has nothing to do with good will.
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posted
okay sorry if my opening post was desrespectful, just that I had no idea who or what they were and I mentioned the other thing because it is the only thing I know that is kinda a semi uncommon event sometimes and because it was funny. So I'll say again sorry for being disrepectful for any JW here on the Hatrack.
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
aspectre, while I'm far from an expert, I am not unfamiliar with Rapturist beliefs. (Too much late-night viewing of the local Christian TV station, among other sources.) And the distinction you are making between Jews and Israelites is not one I have seen before.
I'm far less offended by the notion that we will be "left behind" than the fact that in the movies, they NEVER dress the "rabbi" correctly. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
We are ALL Am Yisrael (the People of Israel). But not all of us live within the borders of Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel), largely because we were forceably expelled in the Diaspora . But even through centuries and centuries of wandering, the Jews have remained a distinct nation with their own laws, language and customs.
The Pope has said that Jews are not to be made targets of conversion. So have many Protestant denominations. Jews are especially touchy on the subject, because not only have we been subjected to a long history of persecution and forced conversion, which we have not forgotton, but in our more liberal and tolerant society, we see our people assimilating out of the faith and willingly converting, largely through intermarriage.
posted
My first exposure to Jehovah's Witnesses was in elementary school. There were two JW kids in my school and all I knew about it at the time was that they never got to do any of the "fun stuff." You know, like Halloween and sex ed. Now that I think about it, I don't really know if their opting out of participation was common with all JW or if it was just their parents' choice.
My apologies if I'm wrong about this, as I only have it on hearsay, but is JW the religion that says that there's a specific number (like 300,000?) of people that will get into heaven? And aren't there already well more members of their religion than that? Guess the rest of us should have converted sooner, and beat the rush.
quote:Originally posted by Enigmatic: My apologies if I'm wrong about this, as I only have it on hearsay, but is JW the religion that says that there's a specific number (like 300,000?) of people that will get into heaven? And aren't there already well more members of their religion than that? Guess the rest of us should have converted sooner, and beat the rush.
--Enigmatic
It's 144,000. The rest will live in a Paradisaic Earth without sin and death. There's no rush about it.
Posts: 317 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
When I was little I had a friend who was a Jehovah's Witness and apparently her dad said she couldn't come over to play with me because I wasn't so my mom doesn't talk to anyone who comes to the door anymore.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Try not to judge a whole group by it's worst representatives.
The Witnesses that I know are good, devout, well-meaning folk, who treat me with respect.
And if some of their beliefs don't make so much sense to me, well, who am I to throw stones? Some of my OWN beliefs don't make so much sense to me. Sometimes your faith has just got to be a matter of faith, not reason.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I've been studying with the Jehovah's Witnesses for about 18 months now. I understand most of where they are coming from, though there are usually significant assumptions on which we disagree.
They just got a new study guide, so apparently we have to start all over. It mostly comes down to a difference over how the Holy Spirit is defined and also a chain of assumptions that rest of all of Revelation being written about future events (at the time it was written).
I have been wondering if it's worthwhile to try and let them know I really don't agree with them (I haven't had too much problem doing this in the past, but they are really stuck on Jesus' reign -not the second coming- having commenced in 1914) or if I should just keep visiting with them until I move out of state. I mean, I kind of consider them friends except that we only ever talk about their interpretation of the Bible. I guess it's at least as valid as my 12 step friendships.
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
>>but in our more liberal and tolerant society
Wait-- are you saying that orthodox Jews are more liberal and tolerant than the rest of society, or are you saying that because society is so liberal and tolerant, Jews are leaving orthodoxy for marriage to non-Jews?
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: >>but in our more liberal and tolerant society
Wait-- are you saying that orthodox Jews are more liberal and tolerant than the rest of society, or are you saying that because society is so liberal and tolerant, Jews are leaving orthodoxy for marriage to non-Jews?
I hesitate to speak for someone else, but I'm fairly certain she meant the latter. (I do, when I make similar statements.)
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by mothertree: They just got a new study guide, so apparently we have to start all over. It mostly comes down to a difference over how the Holy Spirit is defined and also a chain of assumptions that rest of all of Revelation being written about future events (at the time it was written).
I have been wondering if it's worthwhile to try and let them know I really don't agree with them (I haven't had too much problem doing this in the past, but they are really stuck on Jesus' reign -not the second coming- having commenced in 1914) or if I should just keep visiting with them until I move out of state. I mean, I kind of consider them friends except that we only ever talk about their interpretation of the Bible. I guess it's at least as valid as my 12 step friendships.
mothertree:
If you are unhappy studying with them, or completely disagree with the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses, you can always let them know that you are no longer interested. They aren't going to treat you like an outcast or anything. They won't be upset. It's your choice, and only yours.
I'm sure they will try to ask why you are no longer interested, mainly out of curiosity, but they aren't going to force you to keep your study going. They aren't like that. Well, at least they aren't supposed to be.
Honestly, it would be rude to just disappear, also I'm sure they would try to get you set up with another Brother or Sister once you move to your new area, so if you don't want to study anymore, it would be best to notify them.
Posts: 317 | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: >>but in our more liberal and tolerant society
Wait-- are you saying that orthodox Jews are more liberal and tolerant than the rest of society, or are you saying that because society is so liberal and tolerant, Jews are leaving orthodoxy for marriage to non-Jews?
I hesitate to speak for someone else, but I'm fairly certain she meant the latter. (I do, when I make similar statements.)
Yeah, what rivka said.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Punjabee or Trisha or anyone: I don't know very much about JW beliefs. The belief is that there is no hell? Then what do scriptures about hell mean to a JW?
Granted, Mormons don't believe in the literal burning in hell either, but we believe in a hell caused by our own guilt for our actions. A "natural consequence" rather than something imposed by a higher being. We tend to think, heh, guilt. That doesn't sound so bad! So the literary image of fire and brimstone is used to describe just how bad it really is. (According to my understanding of the LDS belief.)
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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JWs believe there is no 'hell', meaning hellfire. There's no place underground (or in another realm) where fire and brimstone abound, and the Devil torments you for eternity. In Greek, the word 'hades' referred to the common grave. As we all know 'hades' is basically another word for hell. So at this point hades=a grave for a dead body.
Also, in Hebrew texts, the word Sheol was used to refer to the common grave. So in essance, Hades=Sheol. The common grave. JWs believe that 'hell' is a common grave that everyone, both good and bad go to for a time (while dead, obviously) to await the resurrection in the New System of things. From what the bible says, the rightous will be resurrected to life, and the unrightous will be resurrected to judgement (also being alive, obviously).
So, if that made no sense, (i tend to ramble) here's a summation. The Bible does not teach Hellfire. There is no actual account of Jesus talking (or Jehovah writing/authoring/speaking) literally about a place people go to be tortured, other than in illustration. (I.E. Lazarus and the Rich man).
Posts: 317 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I'm not JW or anything, but I'm pretty sure they equate Hell to death or "the grave". The unrightous just don't get resurrected while the 144,000 are resurrected and live in Heaven and the other rightous inherit the earth.
I think the Mormon belief is similar in that they believe that Hell is the "second death" or a spiritual death which takes place when a soul is seperated from God.
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posted
Similar, yet oh so different. In fact, the only way they really seem simliar to me is how different they both are from the classic Catholic or Protestant views.
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posted
How 'bout a final Judgement? What do the JW's believe about that if only the righteous have any sort of afterlife at all?
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Well that just it, we believe that there is no afterlife. A 'soul' is the human body, so it's not something that can be separated and wander around Heaven, Earth or any other realm. It's just your regular 90% water body.
So, the rightous DON'T have an afterlife, as the unrightous don't either. EVERYONE has a chance for resurrection to earthly life after death (Not including the 144000, as they are immediatly resurrected to heaven) The bible states that 'For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.' (Romans 6:23) That is from the King James version, just FYI.
After those who are resurrected, are resurrected.. they are given 1000 years to grow back to perfection (as Adam and Eve were originally) teaching others and making the earth suitable to live in. Once this has been accomplished, the Bible states that Satan will be released (as he was confined for this 1000 years I mentioned after armageddon) for a little while, to try to influence people again. Those that follow him at that time, will then recieve their final judgement, which is everlasting death, without hope of ever being resurrected.
It's slightly complicated, so I'm sorry if it doesn't make much sense in print. Feel free to call your local Kingdom Hall for more info, or, answer the door on Saturdays. =)
Posts: 317 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I always have a nice little discussion with the JWs, invite them in for a drink of water or juice if they look hot, and send them off with pass-along cards. We all learn something, and they get a break from slammed doors and rudeness, which can't be fun.
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posted
So, what about the ones that aren't that attractive? Let them cook in the sun? That's so rude!
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posted
I think slamming the door in someone's face is no more rude than waking them up on a Saturday morning.
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posted
So out of curiosity, what happens to those whose bodies are deformed or disabled, when they are resurrected?
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at Tante Shvester. Now if someone would just name their gym Morrison, all would be right with the world. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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It mostly comes down to a difference over how the Holy Spirit is defined and also a chain of assumptions that rest of all of Revelation being written about future events (at the time it was written). ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
